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All I want are Imperial Trenchers, so I'm still on the fence

But look whether you like it or not, this KS is still chugging along. It may not be hitting stretch goal after stretch goal every day and might not have the same price to model ratio as some other games, but so far it is outpacing many other miniature KS currently going on (I suppose nostalgia helps). So whatever they're doing, it's working. Maybe not as fast as some people here want it to be, but still going nevertheless and I'm sure it'll hit some of those higher goals no matter how much back and forth banter goes on around here

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
do not like multiposed, multipart models in general

Careful dude, you're in one of the biggest 40k/warhammer communities on the net!

If this was TMP, quite a lot more people will agree with you. But this is smack dab in the middle of "Multipart Plastic Galore" territory. Might not want to mention that when many other people have been clamoring for multipart models on this very thread

 kenshin620 wrote:

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
do not like multiposed, multipart models in general

Careful dude, you're in one of the biggest 40k/warhammer communities on the net!

If this was TMP, quite a lot more people will agree with you. But this is smack dab in the middle of "Multipart Plastic Galore" territory. Might not want to mention that when many other people have been clamoring for multipart models on this very thread

I know that, but this is my opinion and I stand by it.

Beta Rules :
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9SxXmqAnzM-QUlKYjhnWnFsR28/edit?usp=sharing
Beta Cards:
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9SxXmqAnzM-blNkQmJ0eGhSZG8/edit?usp=sharing

I really like the layout and the rules are simple but concise on the first read through. I haven't looked at the cards but I like the idea. I'm not much of a "card gamer" other than poker but this game looks good.

Thank you!

 5deadly wrote:
@ Ronin_eX
Once again for the most part I’m done… there making styrene if imperial looks good I might buy some. I said that before… not looking to be Loyalist vs. Dissidence… I’m one who questions, researches and examines if I have doubts… my doubts have not subsided but I do have a better idea and I’m sure opened a few eyes.
But just because you or anyone else comes on and says “stop questioning the thing I currently like!” doesn’t mean I have to… I’m not flameing… matter of fact the responses to me are more flaming and trollish undertones than anything I’ve really said. You just don’t like my doubts or questions so you take it personal.
I understand and it’s ok. I’m done anyway for now…

You, you didn't read my post did you?

I never called you a troll, though I did think you were posting questions in a churlish manner. Because they didn't immediately answer your questions you started acting like you were entitled to 100% transparency. And instead of asking plainly you challenged them to answer your question lest "more people drop this".

And comments like:

Side note... I wonder why such a good I.P. like Warzone keeps sinking? Oh thats right... I remember now.

Don't make you sound like a reasonable human being.

Plenty of others have posted questions and concerns in very constructive ways (and been attacked for it unfortunately). You were doing so in a somewhat less than friendly manner and came off more combative than concerned.

You may have noticed in the rest of my post I was actually calling for people to allow others to post their concerns without dog piling them. Part of the reason for all of the bellyaching is that no one can let anything go and if someone states they don't want to back the thing they come under fire. Everyone is just doubling down on their point instead of being open to other opinions. My post was about everybody taking a step back. Realize that Prodos may not have all the answers yet (they were only just getting quotes on plastics last week for instance) and that if someone isn't backing the KS then they aren't "the other side" (most of them will just be picking it up after). For those of us backing it, we have our own reasons and the people choosing not to back don't have to share them. Likewise to those not backing, feel free to ask questions if you still have them, but a lot of posts started to border on "people backing this are just easily duped rubes" territory as everyone retreated to their trenches.

At this point, most of the people left in this thread are MC/WZ fans, it's easy to forget that and want to go tribal and draw a line in the sand. But most of us are fans (though I know some in the thread are just interested in a new property they aren't really familiar with either). So my post was more a call to everyone to cool down and stop acting like there needed to be an us vs. them thing going on. Ask your questions and be respectful, and those who are content shouldn't feel the need to argue every point of those who still have questions. Those of us who are backing and fine with the project should be using this thread to chat about the game and updates. People don't need to engage and nitpick every bloody post. That is what is getting tiresome.

Edit - Either way, I'm dropping this line of conversation now. I have no interest in chasing things in circles.

Simple rules, easy to follow. The cards will change it up. Can't wait now to see sample army lists to try them out.

I have a friend coming over on wednesday... hint, hint.

Argh, it's killing me that I can't give them a read right now at work. I'll probably give 'em a quick print-off at the end of the night though and maybe give them a try when things get a bit less hectic around here.

It's like 1st edition with some slight changes, and only 2 actions per model. Card system seems very neat, intuitive way to add some flavor. D20 system is roughly equivalent to the old system.

I gave it a quick read and so far I'm against the cards as they currently stand. Playing a MtG game in paralel to WZ is not my cup of tea. Plus rule number 10.2. You lose if you run out of cards should be scrapped, if you want to limit game length use turns not deck size.

M.

@Ronin_eX
let it go man...

@ Prodos
Peoples volunteers and Machinators for Cybertronic... the last set of concepts being done for Cybertronic are dead on... you bring those 2 in plastic and I'm sold. Same for imperial trenchers take some smart backend engineering and you could do the trencher with the same long shoulder coats and everything...

I like what I see so far. Interested in seeing vehicle rules (I noticed an "Anti-vehicle value" stat). I'm not sure that running out of cards will be an issue; a deck of 60, draw five at the start of the game, and then you have 55 cards left; it says you can spend a resource to draw a card at any point. Even if you can do more than one per turn (say someone does five per turn starting with turn 1), that's still something like 8 turns.

As for the cards themselves, I like them, I think they'll add a lot of flavor to the game. That's just my opinion, of course.

Still, exhausting a deck makes for a random game length and we know how much people complained when GW brought that in 5th ed.

Plus if you have to discard cards at different speeds due to luck, card powers, etc, that might encourage the side that it's loosing to drag the game on to hopefully win by making the other side to go through its deck before objectives are won.

M.

EDIT: Double post oh god how did this get here oh god I am not good with computer

EDIT EDIT: Uh... weird, not a double post?

Anyway, random game length never bothered me, and I never heard anyone complain about it, but I wasn't really on any forums back then.

Still, I wouldn't lose a bit of sleep if they changed it to just reshuffling your discard pile and starting again, or even just playing without the cards.

 judgedoug wrote:
It's like 1st edition with some slight changes, and only 2 actions per model. Card system seems very neat, intuitive way to add some flavor. D20 system is roughly equivalent to the old system.

Ah so they did go to two actions. I think that's actually probably a smart move on their part. It still allows them to create quick, maneuverable units with three actions without unbalancing things, but allows them to avoid the dangers of four action units. Makes individual activation a bit quicker and prevents the ever-abusable "dick-dance" (move out of total cover, shoot, move back in to total cover). I liked it when Chronopia went to two actions as standard in the 2nd Edition from Excelsior and thought it was a good move. I had a feeling they were going to two actions when I spied Vince's movement stat and it read 6 on the card.

Definitely intrigued to see how that goes in either case.

*stares at clock*

Well only three more hours...

*sigh*

Everything gets 2 actions, heroes and all. There is currently no way to get a 3rd action, unless I missed a card.

 Miguelsan wrote:
I gave it a quick read and so far I'm against the cards as they currently stand. Playing a MtG game in paralel to WZ is not my cup of tea. Plus rule number 10.2. You lose if you run out of cards should be scrapped, if you want to limit game length use turns not deck size.

M.

Yeah, I just got to that part in the rules myself, and that's a game-killer for me...I mean, I play Magic, it's alright, but I'm after something a little different when I set up to play a wargame, you know? The idea of playing Magic: The Gathering but with models just doesn't sound interesting...

Maybe it won't really be that bad, but I was kinda skeptical about the cards to begin with, so I dunno. If there's nothing that forces you to draw cards, like your opponent can't play a bunch of junk that forces you to deck yourself a la Magic, then I imagine losing that way won't happen often unless you do it to yourself, and most games will be decided by the mission. In any case I guess every game has flaws...40k has several, and I was never a big fan of Warmachine's caster kill, either.

Something interesting I noticed:

In the Full version of the game the force composition is:
1. Hero (varying Base sizes). Selected from the rule book or custom made.

"Custom made", that's bound to make some people happy who don't like being forced to take "characters" all the time.

oops. Nevermind

Gave 'em a quick skim and I like things so far (need to delve in to assault a bit more though). The card aspect seems quite interesting (wasn't expecting a deck-building mechanic... that tickles my inner mechanic/number cruncher pink. I love more things to tweak in an army list to make it mine), I like how it interacts with characters as well (resources become hero points, basically and allow them to boost a bit). The only bit I am iffy about is the MtG-style resource aspect. Part of me is wondering if something more akin to Warmachine, with army commanders providing the resources instead of cards might not even things out. Though the game isn't 100% reliant on the card-part (and it is surprsingly easy to disengage it if you wish) a poorly built deck (not enough resources) could lock someone out of the card-part of the game (though starting with resources helps). Something more like Warmachine's Focus-economy may work better (though I will try it before I pass any real judgement), though this would change deck-building quite a bit.

I am actually liking the move to two non-stackable actions (i.e. only perform each action once). It still has the flexibility of Warzone (especially as each model performs separately still, this bit was essential) but removes a lot of the more egregious combos and makes actions like aim worthwhile (though at only a +2 to hit it may be a bit weak, but since it no longer contends with getting to shoot 2-3 times with basic troops, this isn't so horrible). You can still do fire-then-move actions, but move-shot-move is gone which makes full cover a bit less abuseable. Cover still seems like it's important and the added tactical layer of weapon types vs. armour is a nice layer (similar to UWZ though they utilized it less).

Also, thank you for using the simpler weapon system more reminiscent of 1st Edition. I hated the 4-5 range bands with differing numbers of shots and shot strengths. Drove me freaking batty in 2nd Edition (and wasn't completely on board with UWZ's slightly simpler-than-2nd system either; 1st Edition did that bit right the first time).

My only big concern right now is whether the Wait action is simply left out because this is a simplified Beta or if it wont show up in the game. The reaction mechanics were my favourite bits of Warzone. So will they be showing up after more internal testing?

All that said, I'd probably make an option for a card free version just to appease those who dislike it. The game is already fairly decoupled from it as is (just give players the starting number of resources and no decks and things can still boost as normal). I personally love the extra tactical layer it gives, but some people are just vehemently opposed to the idea of cards (look how long Warmachine carried the moniker of "just like MtG" despite only having cards as unit references). So colour me a fan of it, but considering how easy it is to play without, I would probably create a 1-page appendix for people who want to play without. They already know they can house-rule it. But the little thought is always nice.

So far I am liking what I'm seeing. It feels very much like a leaner, meaner 1st Edition with an eye toward balance. That is about exactly where I want the rules to be.

I just hope people don't tear you apart over the action point thing (because honestly I am a fan of the way it is handled). Worked out well for Chronopia 2nd Edition after all.

 Kroothawk wrote:

 warboss wrote:
Kroot, can you show me where he made the claim that those percentages were at the end of the kickstarter?

What you get for your money is determined at the end of the campaign, right? Not after running 20% of the campaign time, right?
And all campaigns (except Avatars of War ) get much much better during the campaign, right?
With price discounts even happening in this campaign after 20% of the campaign time, right?

And always remember: Kickstarters are to fund a project not to drain it of funds. So there are economic limits, how far a project can please people only interested in big discounts.

Dude, I've been extremely polite in this thread. More so than almost everyone replying to me. I'd prefer if you didn't act obtuse. I was obviously giving the current discount on the models at the basic pledge levels. Other kickstarters have started with higher savings out the gate or greater value. The numbers could shift. I've pointed out that if they do I might consider joining. At this point the cost isn't there. I'd also point out that it's unlikely that trooper or character discounts will get better since those are add-ons.

I haven't said big discounts. I've repeatedly only stated costs below what we're likely to be able to get retail. That's not a big discount. That's reasonable for backing and generating interest. Most people just don't want to pay more for something that will be available later for less.

Either way I'll keep looking to see if a change occurs. The models seem pretty solid and the concepts are neat. We'll just have to wait and see.

 Sidstyler wrote:

 Miguelsan wrote:
I gave it a quick read and so far I'm against the cards as they currently stand. Playing a MtG game in paralel to WZ is not my cup of tea. Plus rule number 10.2. You lose if you run out of cards should be scrapped, if you want to limit game length use turns not deck size.

M.

Yeah, I just got to that part in the rules myself, and that's a game-killer for me...I mean, I play Magic, it's alright, but I'm after something a little different when I set up to play a wargame, you know? The idea of playing Magic: The Gathering but with models just doesn't sound interesting...

Maybe it won't really be that bad, but I was kinda skeptical about the cards to begin with, so I dunno. If there's nothing that forces you to draw cards, like your opponent can't play a bunch of junk that forces you to deck yourself a la Magic, then I imagine losing that way won't happen often unless you do it to yourself, and most games will be decided by the mission. In any case I guess every game has flaws...40k has several, and I was never a big fan of Warmachine's caster kill, either.

Something interesting I noticed:

In the Full version of the game the force composition is:
1. Hero (varying Base sizes). Selected from the rule book or custom made.

"Custom made", that's bound to make some people happy who don't like being forced to take "characters" all the time.

I'm a big fan of the deck out mechanic. It seems well designed to punish people who try to abuse card drawing mechanics to draw their entire deck and see all the cards they want. Helps prevent abuse.

Also I always enjoyed card deck + miniatures systems because it gave each player an unseen element for the game so allows bluffing and surprises. Clan war had a very similar deck system to this game and it worked great.

Having given the rules a quick skim they look pretty good. The cards will definitely spice things up a bit.

 Ronin_eX wrote:
For sake mate, I'm surprised they're even engaging you (and have answered your questions by the by). So far the thread has, what, a couple people who wont be buying in at all and a few who are waiting for the actual release instead of going with the Kickstarter because they don't see the value in this (which is all well and cool and people need to stop treating this like some kind of freaking war crime). But you seem to be taking this whole thing rather seriously.

Heaven forbid people take the spending of hundreds of pounds of money seriously... Support for a Kickstarter is given away far too frivolously by most people, and sooner or later, this attitude will come back to bite you, and then you'll be crying "Why didn't I 'take it seriously' when I had the chance?"

Isoulle wrote:
I'm a big fan of the deck out mechanic. It seems well designed to punish people who try to abuse card drawing mechanics to draw their entire deck and see all the cards they want. Helps prevent abuse.

Also I always enjoyed card deck + miniatures systems because it gave each player an unseen element for the game so allows bluffing and surprises. Clan war had a very similar deck system to this game and it worked great.

That was my first thought, with such a free draw mechanic a good limitation for stacking all the best stuff in your hand is punishing over-drawing. Of course, until I play the game I am still not 100% on the resource mechanics yet. I think a more fixed income would work better, but that is just my gut talking right now. I'll try and get a few games in and see how I feel. I think it might also help if they provide a few examples of a fully built deck to use in test games. Pre-builds are always good for starter games.

But I am at least liking the customization it allows. Should be interesting to see what comes out of it and I can't wait to see some more faction specific cards as well (if they are in the, err, cards).

 PsychoticStorm wrote:

Good question, in contrast with the other kickstarters so far this is the first that has IP that is not their, so this is an extra cost,

Mongoose has had Judge Dredd and currently has Rogue Trooper. Which doesn't mean anything specific as we don't know the intricacies of Mongoose's deal with Rebellion or Prodos' deal with Paradox, but people like to keep bandying the "It's licenced, that means they simply can't offer deals!" - so it's worth pointing out. As for deals, they could clearly do better if they chose to, assuming they're going to sell to retailers or even moreso if they plan to sell to wholesalers. They're clearly not choosing to, so c'est la vie.


I'm not a fan of deck building, CCGs or LCGs. I hope there's a proper, fleshed out "no cards" option or I won't be playing this at all. Which would be a shame.

Cards for units, yes why not its a good thing. And this is new for me - cards for tactical manipulation.... OMG yes please. This opens so much possibilities in game. At last non random usable tacticl aspect in a tabletop skirmish game. I love this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Need to playtest it FAST.

Like the Basic beta rules of how the actions work and actions you can take.

Card mechanics seems fine to me (Personally i would use counters on the table instead of having the resource card there and just remove a counter when you spend a resource)
There was no mention in the rules of what all the symbols on the cards mean.
Not really a fan of building your own deck thing. Would have rather seen that each faction had a finished set of deck cards and depending on if you bring unit/character X ,Y you just ad those "special" unit cards to the deck. Have a unit symbol on the cards for easy removal after the game so that changing them out when you change your army list will be simple.

Bubbalicious wrote:
Like the Basic beta rules of how the actions work and actions you can take.

Card mechanics seems fine to me (Personally i would use counters on the table instead of having the resource card there and just remove a counter when you spend a resource)
There was no mention in the rules of what all the symbols on the cards mean.
Not really a fan of building your own deck thing. Would have rather seen that each faction had a finished set of deck cards and depending on if you bring unit/character X ,Y you just ad those "special" unit cards to the deck. Have a unit symbol on the cards for easy removal after the game so that changing them out when you change your army list will be simple.

The card symbols appear on the concept cards at the bottom of section 6. Pawn with a globe is a Strategy Card, just a pawn is a Tactical Card and the wrench is a Gear Card. Resources appear as gear cards (hopefully they get their own symbol eventually to avoid confusions).

So long as they include some kind of default deck-build, I think having deck-building in the game is fine. Players not in to building decks can just set their faction up with the default build and have at 'er, gear-heads can tinker with the deckbuilding and have their fun. I think a pre-build and no-card variant in an appendix would be a great idea, myself. That and include some pre-built deck ideas in each starter to give new players an idea when they get going.

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
I do not get this thread, from the postage paranoia to everything else.

"Warzone failed a lot, this will too"

By that you mean what? that 4 unrelated wargame rules failed for various unrelated reasons? that the IP failed? that the 5th attempt to bring the IP on the table unrelated to all the others, is destined to fail because? should I assume linage curse or something been involved?

"why give the others free stuff (while they payed over what I will pay), I demand free stuff too"

I will break this down, postage is quite big in this one and affects more than the usual (that is it affects US) a single character model, does not cost much to produce, is nothing to ships and because character models cost much by definition looks like a nice drop in the price of shipping, especially for the US backers who, should be quite a few, why should UK backers be entitled to free stuff intended to make people that are on the fringe for postage fees, when they do not have to pay for it is beyond me, I assume its a good reason why Loka has everybody pay for postage, nobody cries for it, for the record non UK razide backers should be the ones complaining since they pay the same postage fee with dark legion (while DL has 3 boxes) and do not get a free figure.

"why is it so expensive/ not having a gazillion free models"

Good question, in contrast with the other kickstarters so far this is the first that has IP that is not their, so this is an extra cost, maybe they plan on giving more models after some goal they have planned, seriously I do not have an answer here, I do not know what they have in mind or their contracts and do not pretend I know, is 4.99 pound off from RRP worth it? 14, something% is not that bad, rivet wars had 10%, sedition wars had a bit more 11% relic knights I think they never mentioned RRP IIRC, would it benefit to add free extra troops you may or may not use? I quite like the extra models in all kickstarters I have participated, buy in dreadball they had a meaning, in all other they were just extra models, in any case that is purely personal to each one, now another question is is it worth waiting to get it for 20% off discount at the distributor? good question, they would never get in plastic with that attitude, if you love plastic so much, you would get a 20% off resin kit, lets be straight the KS is to turn the models in plastic and establish a community so far it seems it is in line with all other kickstarters in scope and prices.

As some of this is clearly aimed at me and people seem to be missing my point i will make this as clear as i can. The original free mini was tacked onto a stretch goal. I was part of reaching that stretch goal at one point at a pretty high pledge goal. Shipping is a seperate issue to stretch goals in my opinion. I dont actually care about the free mini , plenty of people offered me theirs. Its the fact that i believed in the projecy enough to back it day one at a pretty high level. Then i read strech goal been reached and as a bonus everyone at a certain pledge level gets it if there OS. It felt like a bit of a kick on the teeth after offering my support. I feel there must have been a better way to have addressed this. In addition it was not made crystal clear. Why did they not just clearly staye this offer will not be applicable to residents in the uk i wonder. So if you still havnt got it im not miffed about the free mini but the principal tjat i am excluded from part of a stretch goal i contributed towards. Ok i may be the only UK backer or even potential backer to feel this way but id be willing to bet a substantial amount of cash im not. I am certain this is damaging to their campaign and wish they had not done it as i was quite excited about the project.

I have no problem with the whole card thing. "Confrontation" used to be my wargame of choice for the years that it was alive and kicking, so cards definitely are not a taboo for me.

What I really did not like was the part of the rules that was saying that the game ends when there are no cards left in the deck. I mean, this can be a serious game breaker, especially since we know that there are people that will be more than happy to abuse this rule and transform a miniature game to a CCG one. So, this does particular rule does not get my vote.

The first give away Hero was not a stretch goal. But a gift to all the international buyers because of the "expensive" postage. A nice gesture. The 50K stretch goal was to produce 4 new heros for us to buy and one free card.