Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Yes, I don't understand the CCG accusation at all. These cards are not that different from the strategy cards in 40K 2nd ed or Fog of War cards in Tomorrow's war (IIRC).

That said, Prodos should definitely make it possible to play without the cards, just to please the anti-CCG crowd. And I think that's already possible. It's not like the cards are that integrated into the system.

brynolf wrote:

That said, Prodos should definitely make it possible to play without the cards, just to please the anti-CCG crowd. And I think that's already possible. It's not like the cards are that integrated into the system.

Exactly, that's what I observated, the cards are not integrated into the system. If you and your gaming group are not fond of the card system, just ignore them. It will only matter if the game ever manages to organize official competitions at national level. You're given the option to add an additional layer of metagame by playing with the card system, you can take it or leave it.

Personally I'm not really fond of the card system, is like having two different game systems playing in paralel. But I can see how it opens the door to the introduction of additional variables in order to make the game less predictable. Now if we could get rid of the resources "mana like" system... maybe made the characters and officers to apport "command points" to pay the tactics and equippment cards with. That way there would add another strategic factor to the game, the need to eliminate enemy officers in order to lower your adversary's "command pool" other than because they are units with bad ass profiles.

My buddy and I had a game last night, he is not huge into TTG or CCG's, he actually just started Warmahordes and he did have a couple hickups with the card aspect. The game took quite a bit over an hour since he is a new to tabletop in general and I had to help him figure out the card system and explain it quite a bit.

My gaming group had no issues (we could work around some of the misreading and uncleanness of a few of the rules) and we were able to use the cards easily enough. However it goes to show the difference in experience levels and ease of use.

Thomas said it probably would of been easier for him to get into the first game without the cards. I however feel that the cards add an extra element of strategy to the game.

Did the cards discourage him from the game? No

Did the card mechanics distract him? Yes

Was he able to figure it out with help? Yes

Did he enjoy the card mechanics? Not yet but I have a feeling with time he will.

I am of the opposite opinion, however,I have a background in TTG and MTG.

In the end however, it all comes down to this, he texted me 15 min ago and asked if I wanted to have beers and play again.

My suggestion to Prodos is to continue to keep it simple and make sure the rules are concise. When doing the rulebook please make sure to explain everything in an easy to read and follow manner. Use only high quality diagrams, in any videos you make for the game, explain things slowly and methodically . Try to find someone with the least amount of accent (some Muricans have trouble understanding other American's let alone British and Polish.) Use high quality lighting and allow for high definition recording in your videos, I want this game to succeed and flourish in my gaming area and will do what I can to ensure it does.

 Warzone Resurrection wrote:

Wurfelrolle wrote:

I agree with most of this.

I’m not going on another tangent I know some of us here are super big supporters… not tryin to stir the hornets’ nest

I will say this. I liked the old rules, the ones that came in the target games boxed set… lots of very cool solid stuff there, I don’t care for the cards.
Why?

This for me is very very simple and will make sense if you (Prodos and Others) will just listen.

suspension of disbelief.

Some of these cards totally break the “suspension of disbelief” and this is something very important to gaming.
An example. I place a certain card… now my guns magically turn to plasma… this never happened in WarZone before. It also doesn’t make sense.
A better example… in a game now, you could have an earthquake, eclipse, fog, etc… all in one turn?
Now I understand the wargear aspect I get it random things that units could bring, you never know feeling but honestly it breaks the suspension of disbelief for me personally.
It’s cool… I got all the old books still. I can use those.
(not telling you to feel like I do… no need for 5 paragraphs of retort on this, you know who you are)

Pretty much the same thoughts here. But this implementation of the cards has really killed it for me. I don't think of Magic: TG, it more makes me think of Yu-gi-Oh. It really, seriously, feels more like a card game with miniatures, than it does a miniatures game with cards, to me. The apparent homogenization of squads (i.e., the removal of heavy/special weapons members of squads) furthers this.

When I thought the game would be "here's your factions deck of 75 cards, add in the squad specific cards for what you're fielding, now play" I thought it could be a cool and workable dynamic, but add in actual deck-building, and it's just one more thing to think about that I don't want to mess with.

I still REALLY hope that the game comes back and does well. The more variety there is in the wargaming hobby, the better off all of us are.

I would suggest to go through the rules once again, as there is no" removal of heavy/special weapons members of squads" , as we stated on beta rules, You would have to build your own army as per previous editions, based on points. Each squad can be upgraded with Special, heavy weapon , special skills ... and you'd have to pay points for it before game starts.
These are Beta rules, they don't give you this option (building army) atm as we need to get mechanic right , at this stage we are gathering feedbacks, and I would be gratefully if you can provide some based on the "beta" gaming experience .
Just for record, I must stays that majority of fans who actually played the game with cards gave us positive feedback.

Ah, my apologies, I think I see the point of my confusion. A lot of it is is because the pictures thus far of the starter boxes don't show any models carrying heavy/special weapons (HMG, Sniper, Rocket Launcher, etc). I take it that these will be sold separately?

I *am* trying to still keep an open mind, and hoping to convince some of my friends into trying the beta out this weekend. The multi-player workings are what we're most interested in, old WZ was just THE best multi-player free-for-all game out there.

Jeez, I'd hate to see some of these gamers try out an Ambush Alley miniatures game which has a whole deck of Fog of War cards.

Never thought of Tomorrow's War, Cold War Gone Hot, Ambush Alley, etc as Yu-gi-oh.

Official answer on facebook it looks like there will not be any other models coming out for the troops representing heavy weapons, ect just what is in the renders now (2 weapons per squad). this makes me sad, because I wanted to use the nice new minis with the older rules since I don't care for the card aspect at all but it looks like I can't even do that even.

madzerker wrote:
Official answer on facebook it looks like there will not be any other models coming out for the troops representing heavy weapons, ect just what is in the renders now (2 weapons per squad). this makes me sad, because I wanted to use the nice new minis with the older rules since I don't care for the card aspect at all but it looks like I can't even do that even.

This is incorrect!

I have no idea what madzerker is talking about. The actual official answer on Facebook:

Rules clarifications:
OK, some clarification as seems to that couple points where misunderstood.
1. In Full Game:
a. Qty of models per Squad - vary, from 1 to 12. Up to you, as you have to spend points to make an army, there is minimal nr. of models per squad (troops 4, Monster 1...)
b. Yes, you can upgrade squad members to Specialist (heavy weapons) in fact if you noticed on 3ds some models have different weapons!
c. Yes, you can buy equipment for your squad, like different AMMO, Granades, in fact you can customise as you want - it cost points,
c.Yes, some squads will have an option to buy special skills.

Now Cards Concept- cards give you an option, during the game, to react to situations like:
"you create your army vs CC, opponent army is mainly Walkers, therefore during the game, the cards give you possibility to counter enemy army (issue Anti-Vehicle weapon for instance) - yes it "random" but is more than nothing if you "forgot" to add Anti vehicle stuff during creation of your army.

Hope this clarify some of your question,

as always awaiting feedbacks: )
More in Beta v1.1

As shocking as it might be, the 1.0 beta unit stats don't have everything.

 judgedoug wrote:
Jeez, I'd hate to see some of these gamers try out an Ambush Alley miniatures game which has a whole deck of Fog of War cards.

Never thought of Tomorrow's War, Cold War Gone Hot, Ambush Alley, etc as Yu-gi-oh.

Heck I'm surprised people equate Warmahordes (which only uses cards as Stat Cards ) with MtG

 judgedoug wrote:
Jeez, I'd hate to see some of these gamers try out an Ambush Alley miniatures game which has a whole deck of Fog of War cards.

Never thought of Tomorrow's War, Cold War Gone Hot, Ambush Alley, etc as Yu-gi-oh.

Ditto, you could also mention all the Spartan systems, Dreadball (a game massively improved by cards IMO) and numerous others. I find it really hard to understand why some people seem to automatically think cards = CCG. All they do in this rule set is offer the player an extra layer of tactical options and a nice fog of war mechanic to keep you on your toes. In my opinion this is a very good direction for Warzone to head in. They've kept the absolute core concepts (alternate activations, d20s etc) of the old rule set in place, tweaked a few to improve balance (only 2 actions now) and added something new and interesting on top (the cards). That to me sounds like a fairly decent way to modernise a rule set.

 kenshin620 wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
Jeez, I'd hate to see some of these gamers try out an Ambush Alley miniatures game which has a whole deck of Fog of War cards.

Never thought of Tomorrow's War, Cold War Gone Hot, Ambush Alley, etc as Yu-gi-oh.

Heck I'm surprised people equate Warmahordes (which only uses cards as Stat Cards ) with MtG

Mention of cards do something weird and primal to the brains of some people. I'm personally a fan of cards in most forms, whether they are simple stat-cards (Warmahordes) or actually get used as a game mechanic (FoF/TW, any Spartan game). I think the actual ability to build a deck is actually pretty innovative since now we can tweak our decks to our play style instead of getting stuck with an inflexible generalized deck or faction deck. If you value certain approaches and tactics more, then it lets you play around with that.

It also evokes my favourite bits of 1st Edition like the faction special rules that never seemed to return in later editions even though their inclusion always screamed Warzone to me. And it opens up a lot of design space to implement those things. Close Air Support cards for Capitol, cards representing high quality equipment and tactical acumen for Bauhaus, integrate AI programs for Cybertronic, special Art effects for the Brotherhood and weird bio-tech cards for Dark Legion. This is stuff that existed previously but without a centralized mechanic to tie it all together.

So while I imagine it could use some tweaks before it finally hits the shelf, I think it is actually a pretty interesting design choice.

 Nick Ellingworth wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
Jeez, I'd hate to see some of these gamers try out an Ambush Alley miniatures game which has a whole deck of Fog of War cards.

Never thought of Tomorrow's War, Cold War Gone Hot, Ambush Alley, etc as Yu-gi-oh.

Ditto, you could also mention all the Spartan systems, Dreadball (a game massively improved by cards IMO) and numerous others. I find it really hard to understand why some people seem to automatically think cards = CCG. All they do in this rule set is offer the player an extra layer of tactical options and a nice fog of war mechanic to keep you on your toes. In my opinion this is a very good direction for Warzone to head in. They've kept the absolute core concepts (alternate activations, d20s etc) of the old rule set in place, tweaked a few to improve balance (only 2 actions now) and added something new and interesting on top (the cards). That to me sounds like a fairly decent way to modernise a rule set.

Multi-use card decks (such as Dreadball, where a single deck has multiple uses) is the way of the future, honestly. It's a way to add interesting events to gameplay. ESPECIALLY at the skirmish level - Warzone, Dreadball, etc - because teams/forces tend to start looking very similar. Ambush Alley Games has done it brilliantly, Dreadball as well. I haven't played it but isn't Relic Knights a diceless, card-based system?

My official comments from Facebook:

Jarek Ever ok so example, Legion has 2 weapons in box, one is basic 2nd one is "Special" and cost you points, in case of Legion (as the special is not heavy) you can have upto 3 weapons, in case of Capitol and Heavy weapons (strong with lots of RoF) you will have max 1 model per squad, all bits to assembly model you will have in the box (legion squad box of 5 models contain 10 weapons, 5 normal , 5 special)

Also this:

"depending on type of weapon, Special one (flamers, shotguns ect) squad can have more than one, in case of heavy (rockets or Heavy machine guns) just one BUT!!! there will be rule "Get that gun" - if your heavy/special model dies, you will have 50% that other model 3" away from him picks the weapons up."

and:
" so Legion has 2 weapons, same cybertronic in 5 man box, Brotherhood is mainly Art, so just one weapon in box but they will have special rules - Art- (one model can use Art as - similar to heavy weapon), Bauhaus as they all have MGs the will have special rule (you have to spend points for it before game starts) to increase their RoF (same as having one Heavy Machine gun in squad) - Each faction will be different, Capitol with Miniguns!"

Prodos wrote:

madzerker wrote:
Official answer on facebook it looks like there will not be any other models coming out for the troops representing heavy weapons, ect just what is in the renders now (2 weapons per squad). this makes me sad, because I wanted to use the nice new minis with the older rules since I don't care for the card aspect at all but it looks like I can't even do that even.

This is incorrect!

I am glad to hear it is incorrect, that isn't what I gathered from what Jarek said on facebook. I asked if what we saw in the renders was all of the weapon sculpts we will be getting for a troop and he said yes and then said there are two weapons for the troops. I am truly hoping that I am misunderstanding, I want to see models with missile launchers, flame throwers, sniper rifles, hmgs ect.. not just 2 weapons only. A later add on is fine, or even weapon packs for converting. I am hoping that say cybertronic chasseurs will have more weapon options then just the two shown in the renders

 Ronin_eX wrote:

I am also torn on the sleeves. Maybe a few different arm options with bracers and some with rolled sleeves.

Rolled sleeves just don't gel with the sci-fi knight look that the overall figure has. You expect to see that sort of thing on 20th-century soldiers (Vietnam, Mayala, North Africa, Rhodesia) and some modern special operators. It would "feel" better on Capitol and/or Imperial troops than Bauhaus, particularly these guys who are otherwise dressed in future-plate.

katfude wrote:
I don't get the point of shoulder pads that don't protect the shoulders. Pretty disappointed in the Bauhaus troops and Venusian Rangers. I'm a huge fan of Bauhaus from the old artwork and Doomtrooper game, and these are just too far from them.

I agree that the shoulder pads need some serious work in their present form. A poster above suggested that the shoulder pads overlap the chest with straps to hold them on, which would be much more reminiscent of the plate pauldrons and cuirass look that we're used to from Warzone art and models.




There is of course, "shoulder armour" that doesn't protect the shoulder. Modern upper-arm armour helps protect the shoulder, but is more about the bi/tricep area of the upper arm.




Having said that, I'll reiterate that neither the shoulder armour or rolled sleeves are working for me on this one, or for Bauhaus.

Really strange how this is going up in backers, but the money hasn't gone up to match it (and I believe has even gone down slightly?)

Sign to me that perhaps a few of the higher pledge amounts need to knock off a few more quid in savings?

I hope the guys running this can learn from the Gates of Antares KS - it needs to have targets that are within reach, which will bring new and exciting options, and also savings that will encourage people to pledge more. The Kickstarters that have got that right (Kings of War, Zombicide, Sedition Wars to name but 3) have gone astronomical as a result.

It doesn't NEED anything as it's funded already

lower prices and/or free stuff would indeed pull in more backers, BUT at a cost, and with such a long long time to go on the project it hardly seems smart yet

the key (in the early stages) is to keep adding backers, then as you get closer to the end get more cash from them as well as adding new backers which will happen as new factions/items unlock

give it time, no need to panic yet

Pacific wrote:Really strange how this is going up in backers, but the money hasn't gone up to match it (and I believe has even gone down slightly?)

Sign to me that perhaps a few of the higher pledge amounts need to knock off a few more quid in savings?

I hope the guys running this can learn from the Gates of Antares KS - it needs to have targets that are within reach, which will bring new and exciting options, and also savings that will encourage people to pledge more. The Kickstarters that have got that right (Kings of War, Zombicide, Sedition Wars to name but 3) have gone astronomical as a result.

If anything, increasing in pledger total is a better sign than merely increasing cash total. For anyone keeping track, a few backers with a high average can cause wild swings in totals and screw with momentum. But a larger number of backers begins to normalize things. I will admit that the last couple of days were disheartening, but they were also during the slow-as-hell middle of the week in a 60-day long kickstarter after the most controversial update we were likely to see. If Prodos had basically reprinted one of the previous editions of the game then all of us looking for something new would have pulled pledges back. As it turns out they are going with a streamlined version of 1st with an additional card mechanic. So those who were more in to Ultimate Warzone and 2nd Edition (which shared more DNA with each other than they did with 1st) were going to be unhappy. Either way they went they would have lost out, because the Warzone community is nothing if not very passionate and very, very (very) fractious in how they think the game should be (for those who haven't noticed yet ).

But a combination of a few high-level guys pulling back on the reigns and the dramatic slowdown almost every long-haul Kickstarter sees after the initial flurry means that things look a little worse than they likely were. The most important numbers to watch are number of backers which has steadily gone up. The more total backers in the stable, the more noticeable the final surge will be. Because the guys in at high values and the early adopters will likely be bled dry before the half way mark reaches us. It will be the scads of people in at low/mid levels that flock to grab a last few add-ons that will fuel the end-of-KS feeding frenzy.

I'm going to keep my eye on it until the weekend, myself, because the early bits of this Kickstarter have been wonky enough that it has been hard to get a real feel for it. I still remember last week when I was expecting a sharp drop-off in pledges and on the slowest day a handful of people dumped £4000 in to the game (completely unexpectedly). Now one of those people has pulled out (or rather, dropped back, as they are likely still funding at the £1 level since the number of backers never went down) just as unexpectedly. But they are still hovering over £55k, with over 500 backers (and rising every day). Even if it stalled right here, the Kickstarter would be a success. But they still have 47 days to go and the roughest spot is likely behind them with the initial release of the Beta.

OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:It doesn't NEED anything as it's funded already

lower prices and/or free stuff would indeed pull in more backers, BUT at a cost, and with such a long long time to go on the project it hardly seems smart yet

the key (in the early stages) is to keep adding backers, then as you get closer to the end get more cash from them as well as adding new backers which will happen as new factions/items unlock

give it time, no need to panic yet

Basically, all of this. It is already successful for what it was reaching for initially. It is still adding new backers and it is likely just settling in to the mid-KS slump that all long-haul campaigns experience. It still has more time left to run than most Kickstarter last for. It has already funded at over 150% of what it needed. It doesn't really need to break £60k (though given what we know, it probably will eventually) or even £70k to be successful, it is already there. Sucks that a bunch of people got a little excited and jumped to high pledges before finding out whether it would be what they wanted, but it only goes to show how amount of backers is more important than how much each backer has invested.

I still figure this one will do well and that the last couple of days were just a bit wonky. Hard to call it a trend anymore than the first day or two of £10k+ pledges was. I've said it before and I'll say it again, long Kickstarters are weird animals. Their low points can get pretty low, their doldrums are longer and more pronounced and it isn't odd to see nil or negative days as people shift pledges around and fiddle with things in the middle of the Kickstarter. This one is still pretty much right on track for that. Unless anything else odd happens, tomorrow will likely see at least some kind of upward movement and Friday will likely be pretty good.

So I'm a pretty big noob to this universe. I looked on the wiki and they don't seem to make any mention of the Brotherhood. Are they associated with a region or are they a new faction?

Also, I noticed Capitol is set to fund next and is the "US" equivalent. Is that correct?

Finally, is there any kind of "good guy" in this universe or is it all pretty murky?

 cincydooley wrote:
So I'm a pretty big noob to this universe. I looked on the wiki and they don't seem to make any mention of the Brotherhood. Are they associated with a region or are they a new faction?

Also, I noticed Capitol is set to fund next and is the "US" equivalent. Is that correct?

Finally, is there any kind of "good guy" in this universe or is it all pretty murky?

I don't remember nothing about them either, here is a link
http://greywolf.critter.net/sinaimc/brotherhood.htm

Yep Capitol is like the US.

It's pretty murky, we're dealing with megacorporations! Dark legion are are about the only true evil faction(and maybe Cybertronic)

 cincydooley wrote:
So I'm a pretty big noob to this universe. I looked on the wiki and they don't seem to make any mention of the Brotherhood. Are they associated with a region or are they a new faction?

Nope, they are a fairly well-established faction in the setting. When the Imperials stumbled across the seal that released the Dark Symmetry in to our plane of existence the Brotherhood formed to beat them back and re-unite humanity. THe seat of their power is located on Luna (which was terraformed and now looks like every city out of a Noir film ever). But they are pretty tight with Imperial and Bauhaus (or at least were in tight with Bauhaus until they started dealing with Cybertronic, who formed as an outgrowth of certain interests within Bauhaus and a few other Corporations). They are present just about anywhere and despite the Space Religious Order look and feel, they tend to avoid a lot of the negative tropes. Their Inquisitors are more likely to question you unobtrusively than to torture you, and if you are tainted by the darkness then they will perform the rites to exorcise you and get you in to a hospital for recovery. Like every other faction they have their upsides and downsides, their good guys and their bad guys.

Also, I noticed Capitol is set to fund next and is the "US" equivalent. Is that correct?

Yup, basically 1960's America. Right down to Mad Men style business men wheeling and dealing and the 'Nam style army. Very much the uber-patriotic stereotype of America you tended to see in Judge Dredd. The Meg would fit right in to Mars like a glove.

Finally, is there any kind of "good guy" in this universe or is it all pretty murky?

Yes and no. It kind of runs counter to 40k in my mind. In 40k everyone is a little evil, in Mutant Chronicles everyone has their positive notes and their Heroes (with a capital H). For every downside you can list on a faction you can list several good points about their society and the people in it.

Take my favourite faction, Bauhaus. On the face they can seem Imperialistic, stern, aloof and even a bit fantatical and their upper echelons are rife with nepotism. But they have universal health care, the best education system in the solar system, the lowest unemployment rate of any faction (they will pay to retrain you and get you back in the work force), and despite the rampant nepotism a military man can rise to rub elbows with the elite of society simply through sheer excellence. And while the faction contains units like the Order of the Spider and the Order of Fear (both scary, scary units with a bad reputation) it also has its real heroes (V-Rangers, Order of the Dragon, etc.).

Basically all of the human factions (even the Brotherhood) have their truly heroic bits to them alongside the usual black-humour stuff. It is mostly the pulp influences that cause this. It allows you to have heroic individuals working for factions that would usually be considered villains in other media.

If I had to pick one faction to be the heroes then it is a tossup between the Cartel and the Brotherhood. The Cartel is an organization focused on uniting the corporations and has an arm that is specialized in fighting the Dark Legion (the Doomtroopers). The Brotherhood is an organization led by a man who truly wants to unite humanity and fight back the Darkness, Cardinal Durand (well all of The Cardinals, really, but that little bit is delving deeper in to the weirder bits of the backstory).

Sweet. Thanks for that run down. I think I may end up hopping in this KS with the brotherhood.

I like everything you wrote about Bauhaus but for some reason I'm not entirely sold in he models. I'm kinda hoping we see some Capitol previews so I can make a judgement on them!

I'm hoping it reaches Capitol as well, my other Warzone buddy plays them along with Imperial and Crescentians (which is likely a long way down the road if they even keep Dark Eden around).

And I can see not everyone liking the re-styled Bauhaus, but this is probably one of my favourite redesigns of them since Kev White did the new-style 2nd Edition ones. I don't know why but I get an Afrika Korps + WWI feel from them (I think the former is the design of the Vulcan and the rolled-up sleeves). The new Hussars are closer to what they were described as in the original Mutant Chronicles material (the basic, but well armed and equipped conscripts of Bauhaus) rather than being 100% career soldiers as they became in 2nd Edition when the Ducal Militia became the conscripted forces.

But with Hussars getting back in as the basic trooper that leaves them open to do things like minor noble house Guard units (kind of the opposite of 2nd Edition's Ducal Militia conscripts, these are special forces units beholden to specific noble houses) alongside the Elector House Guard Orders (Elector Houses being the top-ranking families in Bauhaus society). Guard units tend to be the epitome of heavily armoured shock troops (save for a few of the covert-ops Orders). I'm excited to see if they go back to that in this edition because losing the guard orders was one of the things I despised about 2nd Edition. That and the Imperial Special Forces that weren't Golden Lions and Blood Berets; I loved all of the little spec-ops units they debuted in 1st Edition; they even had an elite corps of bank guards!

But seeing as they appear to be bringing back a lot of staples of 1st Edition, I think my hopes are in good hands at this point.

 c0un7_z3r0 wrote:
I like them to keep the card system, haven't tried it yet but I sure don't want a 40k/warmahordes clone.

I'd rather play more of a WarZone clone. I don't mind unit cards if the details are also repeated in the rulebook, but I am uninterested in a tactical card game shoehorned into a miniatures skirmish game. I've personally never liked any of the CCGs or LGCs and always happily been a miniatures and RPG guy. I don't plan to start now. Yes, that means I'm not even going to give it a try because I'm not going to waste time and toner printing out 2 sets of cards, nor am I going to buy any. I may buy some of the figures - depending on distribution and final price, and end up proxying them for Imperial Guard in 40k. If I can ever find the books, I might use the figures for WZ1e

 Azazelx wrote:

 c0un7_z3r0 wrote:
I like them to keep the card system, haven't tried it yet but I sure don't want a 40k/warmahordes clone.

I'd rather play more of a WarZone clone. I don't mind unit cards if the details are also repeated in the rulebook, but I am uninterested in a tactical card game shoehorned into a miniatures skirmish game. I've personally never liked any of the CCGs or LGCs and always happily been a miniatures and RPG guy. I don't plan to start now. Yes, that means I'm not even going to give it a try because I'm not going to waste time and toner printing out 2 sets of cards, nor am I going to buy any. I may buy some of the figures - depending on distribution and final price, and end up proxying them for Imperial Guard in 40k. If I can ever find the books, I might use the figures for WZ1e

Which is all well and cool, but a card mechanic doesn't make it not a Warzone clone. The game is basically 1st Edition Warzone with a unified army-wide special rule mechanic that happens to run on cards. It's cool to not like cards and know it. I wont tell you to give it a try. But the game is basically 1st Edition in every way shape and form right now. The differences between the current set of rules and 1st Edition is smaller than the differences between 1st and 2nd (hell even less than the differences between 1st and Ultimate).

Basically they added in cards that function in a similar fashion to the army-wide special rules (with more variety to boot) and reduced down to two actions as standard (but with ways to boost up to three according to the next beta's notes).

Feels like Warzone to me. I just don't want this to devolve in to "it has X, it is not Warzone". Because the same can be said about 2nd Edition and Ultimate when you get right down to it.

That said, give the rules a try sans cards (they are very easy to excise). Start both players with the "Command Points" that refresh every turn (replaces starting resources) so that special abilities can still function and give it a run through. The ease of de-coupling the cards from the rules is what has spurred me to suggest Prodos create an optional cardless set of rules to put in an appendix of the main rules. I love the way the cards function, and in play they feel very much like a natural extension of a lot of the rules concepts of 1st Edition, but the gut-level reaction a lot of people have to them and the ease of decoupling them from the main rules means that an officially endorsed house rule should make everyone happy and allow the game to move forward.

But I really recommend trying the rules sans cards with the house rule I suggested. It felt like I was playing a streamlined version of 1st Edition again, and I loved it (gave a test game a go before I got a couple of decks cut out because I was jonesing to play it).

And as an aside, sitting down and cutting all of those cards out reminded me of sitting down with printouts of the eight trillion templates 1st Edition required and exactingly cutting them all out (who ever thought the jagged edging was a good idea on these things; bastards!). It was a big wash of nostalgia as I sat, buried in scrap paper. I wonder if this version will give us a template for every, bloody thing in the game (please no Prodos, I had my fun already and don't wish it on anyone!).

I had no desire to play a card game within a miniatures game, I really didn't, but I have played 4 games so far and it has been a total blast. The cards add a new depth to the game that create new and unique tactics. I hate to say it but I am a convert, I like the new dynamic a lot!

 BDJV wrote:
I had no desire to play a card game within a miniatures game, I really didn't, but I have played 4 games so far and it has been a total blast. The cards add a new depth to the game that create new and unique tactics. I hate to say it but I am a convert, I like the new dynamic a lot!

It makes me genuinely happy to know that there are still people in the world that can change their mind. I loved your posts about your play tests on the FB pseudo-board (can't wait until their forums go up today/tomorrow/garstupidtimezones).

As someone who didn't mind the card aspect but was iffy on the resource mechanic, I am also starting to enjoy the latter bit as well. The starting pool of resources helps to alleviate the tempo-issues and prevents you from being resource starved and unable to do anything with that phase. So instead of needing to stack 24+ resources in the deck to make sure you aren't dead in the water, you can make due with 10-15 and fill the rest of the deck with interesting stuff.

I can't wait to see the faction-specific stuff (especially Cybertronic programs, now there is an aspect that I missed in later editions).

While the system is not inextricably linked to the card mechanics (and is quite easy to excise), it is also not a thoughtless add-on either. It shows some real care on their part.

I concur wholeheartedly, a lot of thought and care has been put into the addition of the card system.

Just because I am a grumpy old jaded gamer does not mean I cannot change my mind and appreciate a great idea!

Yeah I cannot wait until the official forums finally launch as well.

 Ronin_eX wrote:

That said, give the rules a try sans cards (they are very easy to excise). Start both players with the "Command Points" that refresh every turn (replaces starting resources) so that special abilities can still function and give it a run through. The ease of de-coupling the cards from the rules is what has spurred me to suggest Prodos create an optional cardless set of rules to put in an appendix of the main rules. I love the way the cards function, and in play they feel very much like a natural extension of a lot of the rules concepts of 1st Edition, but the gut-level reaction a lot of people have to them and the ease of decoupling them from the main rules means that an officially endorsed house rule should make everyone happy and allow the game to move forward.

But I really recommend trying the rules sans cards with the house rule I suggested. It felt like I was playing a streamlined version of 1st Edition again, and I loved it (gave a test game a go before I got a couple of decks cut out because I was jonesing to play it).

I'm not going to get into an argument about it, nor am I trying to piss on the parade here. I'm realistically probably not going to have time to learn the rules and play(test) them, with or without the cards anytime soon. That's another reason I'm being so dismissive, but frankly, the couple of times I tried CCGs, I absolutely hated them, and the idea of deck building, so the idea actually repulses me. Even the practice of army list building pisses me off these days, as I've never especially enjoyed it. I don't mind stuff like Munchkin, though - but that's a whole different card genre. If Prodos can create an official cardless version for cardophobes like myself, then I'll be happy to try it, once I get a chance to actually play.

I can change my mind about things, but frankly, I've got so much stuff to do and play, and the fact that I'll have to be the DM, Teacher of rules and supplier of toy soldiers of any boardgames or minis rulesets to my preferred group just means I'll play something else instead of something I'm actively averse to...

Yeah, no worries mate, not going to argue preference with anyone over here (I have my own grumpy old man hangups that make no bloody sense as well ). But yeah, the house rule to remove cards is really, really simple. Barring any wacky developments that create additional attachment points for the card system (and I simply can't foresee how that would occur), the only thing needed to remove them is to replace resource cards with a refreshing pool of chits to spend on special abilities that are inherent to the units themselves (kind of like focus in Warmachine really) and bob's your uncle.

Should work as well when the full rules are released in either case. But even as someone who loves the cards, I'll try and put a good word in for y'all about an optional rule somewhere in the book to allow people to play cardless. More options are always better than less in my book. And if one paragraph will get more people to look at the game I am all for it.

But I just hope that they never feel pressure enough to remove the mechanic from the game, because it is quickly becoming my favourite development in this edition. It has almost made me forget about double-blind deployment from UWZ.