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 Jancoran wrote:
In the end who cares. Look at the scoreboard and then tell me whether they are competitive or not. Thats all that matters in the end.

So THEORY aside, maybe some Daemon players could tell us how its ACTUALLY going?

Won all the games I have played so far, one, against guard, was surprisingly easy, though the player was no expert, I had trouble with his tank's, but I could mulch his scoring troops so it diddn't matter in the end.

One against Standard marines, monstrous creatures mess up their plans most times.

One against dark angels, which actually was extremely close, the new codex's are well balanced to each other. I won, but only had 5 models left on the table, and my remaining 2 pink horror's held their objective. It could have gone either way, that one.

So overall? The army is perfectly playable, and a buggerload of fun

PS, warpstorm is not all that bad. Only had one truly good result each game (Guard game, spawned an extra scoring unit of plaguebearers , Marine game, got a +1 invulnerable roll, which was handy, Dark angels, got a particularly lucky slaanesh's wrath that killed a few terminators with rending, but in the same vein, my daemon prince of slaanesh got sucked back into the warp. Slaanesh was not feeling happy that day xD)

Eldercaveman wrote:
I've played against the new book multiple times now, against various different builds, and nothing has stuck out as being over or under powered. The book on a whole has been fun to play against, the book keeping it needs has never been a problem, the warp storm has never done anything silly. The only thing I've had any real problem with is the Soulgrinders gettting cover behind ADL thing, but that's a whole other debate.

O and also something I don't think anything any one has mentioned, the biggest fail in this book, the artwork in the unit entries. Seriously! It's like one of the designers had bring your kid to work day, and let them go run around with some crayons.

That's John Blanche for you! While I'll concede it does create an "ancient spellbook" sort of vibe, I've never really liked his style.

 Evileyes wrote:

PS, warpstorm is not all that bad. Only had one truly good result each game (Guard game, spawned an extra scoring unit of plaguebearers , Marine game, got a +1 invulnerable roll, which was handy, Dark angels, got a particularly lucky slaanesh's wrath that killed a few terminators with rending, but in the same vein, my daemon prince of slaanesh got sucked back into the warp. Slaanesh was not feeling happy that day xD)

My best results with the table was my last game against my buddy's Orks;
a) turn 3 Nurgle showed up and farted all over the last 5 Lootas on the table - one lucky greenie made his 6+ FnP save (care of Warpflame) and thus kept my opponent from being tabled, which allowed him to bring his Nob Biker + Warboss deathstar onto the table.
We simply agreed that that last Ork had managed to dive between the Cracks of Doom as Nurgle was dumping on the rest of the unit!

b) the last two turns I rolled up the +1 save which allowed me to survive long enough to bring my HoK and last few 'Letters into the party to kill the annoying as feth Painboy and the Warboss to finally table my opponent.
I swear, that Nob Biker unit made at least 85% of their FnP rolls! My buddy is rediculously lucky with that damn unit - even playing my "Attack of the Kittens" trap card doesn't scratch that damn unit! (though it did take us about 5 minutes one time to chase Loki down and get the Warboss back from her...)

I've played two games, one was a 1-on-1 against Necrons and one was a team game with CSM against Eldar/Tyranids.

First game I dominated but the Chaos gods were still not pleased. Rolled snake eyes on the Warpstorm chart, and then box cars on the instability test on a large group of Daemonettes that were about 3" away from my opponents last scoring unit (5 tesla immortals) and being able to snag the objective (it was turn 5). End result was his immortals and crypteks (the only units left) shot down the smaller remnants of the Pinkies and Bloodletters, and he kept the relic. Lost 4-2, would have won 6-1 had it not been for that warp storm result. But the game was a blast, and I actually laughed when it all fell to crap for me!

Second game was not so good. It was a combination of just horrible rolls, and a hideous match up. Between the Shadows of the Warp and Runes of No Psykers Allowed, I got off about half of my spells. I rolled the long awaited Daemonic Possession but since there were 6 total pykers on the board, the chance of me getting rid of Eldrad were not good. It ended up going on one of three zoanthropes and it managed to pass its test! Having to deal with the typical scatter laser spam and 30 gaunts with devourers (90 St4 shots, seriously) that outflanked right in front of my Seekers, it started off badly for me early. Didn't help that I kept forgetting about the rewards I rolled up (which could have saved my KoS). I rolled 4 or less on the warpstorm table 4 more times, and when I deepstruck my flamers, I scattered into inpassable terrain, mishapped and rolled a 1, unit wiped. On the plus side, I continue to be impressed with Daemonettes, they wiped a unit of gaunts and hive guard in a disorderly charge, and almost wiped a large unit of suped-up hormagaunts that charged them (lost by 1, failed instability by 5).

I have another team game (against the same Eldar and Necron players) coming up on Tuesday. Trying a similar list, but taking more Seekers and using a winged DP instead of a KoS. Also didn't take as many psykic powers.

 Jancoran wrote:
In the end who cares. Look at the scoreboard and then tell me whether they are competitive or not. Thats all that matters in the end.

So THEORY aside, maybe some Daemon players could tell us how its ACTUALLY going?

I'm still winning about the same percentage of games with daemons as I did with my CSM list.

Their a good army, but not OP.
They have their weak points. Your T3 daemons can be shredded by enemy anti-infantry fire. Your going to have a hard time against land raiders.
They have their strong points. Today I had a GUO roll 2 greater rewards and got a 4++ FNP and reroll failed invulns. That alone made him unkillable in my game today.
I think your going to see them end up like CSM and DA. A good army with a few solid builds, but not over the top like GK/SW/IG when they came out.

 Jancoran wrote:

So THEORY aside, maybe some Daemon players could tell us how its ACTUALLY going?

After some ~15 games, I would say they are kinda' fine. Army building is pretty boring if you know the codex (units in the same slot does roughly the same thing so they have almost zero synergy), but otherwise if you have an idea, then you can mostly go with it.

The army lacks durability and hitting power but it is fast and has many-many tricks to mitigate their disadvantages. It is very also very hord-y, even the expensive units are only effective in maxed-out squads. Diversity only comes from the random stuff, daemonic armies work and play the same otherwise.

Overall, it is better than Codex: Nurgle and Baledrakes, but worse than Dark Angels. Plays a lot like a combination of Dark Eldar and Tyrannids, and I would place it somewhere around these armies in terms of power (strong mid-tier).

 Jancoran wrote:
In the end who cares. Look at the scoreboard and then tell me whether they are competitive or not. Thats all that matters in the end.

So THEORY aside, maybe some Daemon players could tell us how its ACTUALLY going?

I've played 5-6 games thus far, and while the codex is fun, and doesn't seem over or under powered, I'm just not a fan of the direction the army took. It's changed so much from what I enjoyed about the last codex that I'm not sure I'm going to stick with it. I've never liked horde armies.

Well, I don't know about you lot, but I like the idea of taking a Bloodthirster as an ally to my CSM, and then chucking it into a tank line

Well, after battling a CD army with 1 GUO, 4 FMCs (3 DPs as HS, 1 DP from CSM codex), PBs and CSM, my impression is that this codex is very viable.

Selym wrote:
Well, I don't know about you lot, but I like the idea of taking a Bloodthirster as an ally to my CSM, and then chucking it into a tank line

I was planning on using a GUO to join my plague marines hanging out behind an ADL.

The GUO has a 2+ cover save, and will slap down anything that gets to close.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, after battling a CD army with 1 GUO, 4 FMCs (3 DPs as HS, 1 DP from CSM codex), PBs and CSM, my impression is that this codex is very viable.

How did that work? I've been afraid of the 5 MC army as it seems very vulnerable to a bad round of shooting.

 labmouse42 wrote:

Selym wrote:
Well, I don't know about you lot, but I like the idea of taking a Bloodthirster as an ally to my CSM, and then chucking it into a tank line

I was planning on using a GUO to join my plague marines hanging out behind an ADL.

The GUO has a 2+ cover save, and will slap down anything that gets to close.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, after battling a CD army with 1 GUO, 4 FMCs (3 DPs as HS, 1 DP from CSM codex), PBs and CSM, my impression is that this codex is very viable.

How did that work? I've been afraid of the 5 MC army as it seems very vulnerable to a bad round of shooting.

Well, they're all multi-wound high-toughness models, first of all. It's ahrd to ID them. Give the DP's power armour and Daemon of Tzeentch to re-roll 1's for saving.
That re-roll halves the number of wounds you take.
Have them fly on turns 1 and/or 2 to make them hard to hit, and then assault on turn 2/3, and stay in assault as much as possible

EDIT: Don't forget about cover, it's pretty useful to hide behind

 Evileyes wrote:
...Oh god, I just realised. That model is poseable. If it turns out it doesnt get cover behind an aegis, people are gonna start ungluing the leg's, and remodelling it so it's squatting on it's butt, just off the ground, so they get the cover save. xD

Nah...just stick all the legs straight out from the body.

Skriker

I'm noticing one problem with Daemons in competitive play, and that's the pre-game.

With all the rolls for psychic powers, warp abilities, etc. and the choice to swap to primaris; it took me a while just to get all the random rolls done.

I'm mostly joking about it affecting competitive play, but it honestly does take a while to even start hitting the table.

 lucasbuffalo wrote:
I'm noticing one problem with Daemons in competitive play, and that's the pre-game.

With all the rolls for psychic powers, warp abilities, etc. and the choice to swap to primaris; it took me a while just to get all the random rolls done.

I'm mostly joking about it affecting competitive play, but it honestly does take a while to even start hitting the table.

I haven't found it to be that bad, I mostly take rewards with the intention of picking the 0 level choice. The only real rolling I've been doing has been for psychic powers.

 Skriker wrote:

 Evileyes wrote:
...Oh god, I just realised. That model is poseable. If it turns out it doesnt get cover behind an aegis, people are gonna start ungluing the leg's, and remodelling it so it's squatting on it's butt, just off the ground, so they get the cover save. xD

Nah...just stick all the legs straight out from the body.

Skriker

One of my roommate's idiot friends broke my Nurgle 'Grinder (and my Slaanesh Grinder's arm!), and all the legs fell off. All. Guess who gets to reposition the legs for AA (Aegis Advantage)...this guy
And Evileyes is right: it is pose-able. No modeling for advantage, just putting the legs on as I want. Hehe...too bad I have to have two Nurgle 'Grinders or two Khorne Grinders and there's no point in the unmarked Grinder being painted in Slaaneshi colors...now I have to repaint him. Grumble. Nurgle or Khorne. Nurgle or Khorne. I have one of each already...blah.

ElderCaveman, that was pretty funny re: Crayons.

I just want to hear some actual playtesting experience like this post. Enough with the theory hammering and the righteous indignation act. I just wanna' know what's ACTUALLY happening. I saw a Necron Lord get zapped into cinders with the Warp Storm but that game was already lost by then and other than that rather jarring moment, everything was fine. But it WAS jarring and it did give pause there. I seriously had to take a step back and see how I felt about that.

In the ened I realize it made no difference and that may well be the case in many game, ultimately.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
And Evileyes is right: it is pose-able. No modeling for advantage, just putting the legs on as I want. Hehe...too bad I have to have two Nurgle 'Grinders or two Khorne Grinders and there's no point in the unmarked Grinder being painted in Slaaneshi colors...now I have to repaint him. Grumble. Nurgle or Khorne. Nurgle or Khorne. I have one of each already...blah.

You could just paint it a neutral color (black or dark grey) and then make a magnetized plate to put on the chest or back or some other spot. Make plates with the various powers' symbol and swap them out based on what mark you want!

 Jancoran wrote:
ElderCaveman, that was pretty funny re: Crayons.

I just want to hear some actual playtesting experience like this post. Enough with the theory hammering and the righteous indignation act. I just wanna' know what's ACTUALLY happening. I saw a Necron Lord get zapped into cinders with the Warp Storm but that game was already lost by then and other than that rather jarring moment, everything was fine. But it WAS jarring and it did give pause there. I seriously had to take a step back and see how I felt about that.

In the ened I realize it made no difference and that may well be the case in many game, ultimately.

Here is a decent battle report on youtube of demons vs tyranids

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQaSKrVaQgk

It does show some of the glaring defeciencies of demons, lol at getting out shot by tyranids

Iv only played 2 games with them so far a 1850 against orks and a 1000pt against tau, won both pretty convincingly mainly due to flying Dp's with biomancy.

In the first game against orks my Dp took out a nob biker+warboss unit on his own while most of my troops either sat in ruins to hold objectives or got shot.
Second game I decided I liked Dps and took 2 with 40 horrors against the Tau. The 2 Dps pretty much wrecked the tau army on their own. I lost 1 Dp and the tau player gave up on turn 3 or 4.

Early days though, these guys hadnt faced the new daemons before so Im sure they would do better against me next time round.
Also the warp storm table has largely not done alot, worst result I had was -1 to invos, best result I got was a kill or 2 from khornes wrath.

Lastly, while the grimoire sounds like omg awesome, the game I used it in managed to see me reduce my invo more often than increase it.

I have to agree, I feel this codex is balanced. I have played 7-8 games and so far have enjoyed each game.

Warpstorm has not been my friend. I have seen tzeench kill my Plaguebearers and not hit the opponent at all. I have seen the -1 inv several times. The one time I rolled psyker to herald result there were no psykers on the board... and resulted in calm. I have yet to snake eyes or box cars though. Honestly the result I hate the most (even with my apparent inability to roll well) is the warp is calm result. I want SOMETHING to happen damn it!.

As for pre game setup I dont find it that time consuming. 4 heralds + DP + "champions" in each unit should take at MOST 5 mins. after playing you should know what you want when you roll. For example Lesser Reward... ok im fighting MC nids, roll the armorbane template, yep lets trade that for a ap2 mastercraft wep. roll the str x 2 on 6's... vs MC nids and the choice becomes a bit tougher.

Yes the daemons feel very hordish now. and yes max units are going to do best. But IMHO daemons should have been hordy from the begining. a daemonic invasion consisting of less models than a space marine army does not feel much like an invasion...