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I think the "11" roll is very, very stupid. In a 6 turn game, there's a 1/3 chance that gets rolled. I have 6 psykers in my army, 5 of them are 200+ points. I don't want to lose a Tervigon or two and a Flyrant because of a silly table, and I'd hate to auto win turn 1 because my opponent lost his army on snake eyes.

I like the chart. I think it adds great character to the army and makes the Shooting Phase interesting.

Without it Daemons would lose a lot of 'flavor'. And a lot of things to do in the Shooting Phase.

I've probably played upwards of ten games already with the new codex and it has helped me and hindered me. It has the potential to win or lose you the game but that hasn't happened to me yet.

And it won't bother me when it does, embrace Chaos in its entirety or pick a different army.

Makumba wrote:

It's one result. It affects a random psyker, most armes don't even have a psyker

all imperials run libbies and/or rune priests , all eldar run eldrad , all tau run eldar , a lot of DE run seers as ally , all nids hav psykers , , chaos runs tyfus in zombi builds and offten sorc as a second HQ , GK run psykers . So yeah BT and sob dont run psykers , neither do orcs because their suck and necron ,so unless aside of those 4 there are only 3 other dex made by GW , most armies do run psykers.

So?
The army that lives in the Warp and is made from stuff of magic itself is finally good at making all practitioners of sorcery potentially cry.
Hint: Daemons are good against psykers and will school them.
So if you want to mitigate that effectiveness, then don't build a battleplan that revolves around psychic shinanigans.

Still no seeing the problem with the Warpstorm table maaaaaybe eating a random psyker... Isn't your psykers misbehaving themselves when facing the denizens of the Warp itself something you should expect to happen? (especially when Tzeentch is watching?!)

Makumba wrote:
my only problem with the table is that it makes the game even longer , with even more rolling . It would have been fun , if the table had random/fun stuff. units of demons teleporting around [and being able to charge] or enemy units being teleported around , something that would require skill to use or at least gave tactical options . Right now it is as "fun" as storm lords blitzing.

Okay, so for maybe two weeks or so it takes us Daemon players a quick look back to the chart to remind ourselves of each effect.
Give it a chance and at most it'll take an extra 10-15 seconds most of the time to work through - hardly dragging things out.

Hell, I've played all of 1 game so far and I already know what each roll is.
Only thing to still look up right now is the S/ap of each God's happy-dance-rampage across the board. (and I plan to make a little reminder chart anyways to keep on the table for quick-reference in game.)

And I can promise that if Daemons suddenly got the ability to randomly be able to teleport about and/or charge out of teleportation, we'd have a MUCH bigger gakstorm on our hands.

After reading this Thread sometimes I think GW could print a codex that says roll on this table and on a roll of an 11 you have to pay GW 50 bucks and people would love it and say that it's fluffy because GW loves money and competitive players can pound sand.

I'm a competitive player.

This chart is less of an issue for competitive play than the current flyer disparity, or runes of warding, or the WD screamer and flamer rules.

 MDizzle wrote:
After reading this Thread sometimes I think GW could print a codex that says roll on this table and on a roll of an 11 you have to pay GW 50 bucks and people would love it and say that it's fluffy because GW loves money and competitive players can pound sand.

Pretty much.

T3 5++ save foot slogging assault army with no grenades that can screw itself in multiple ways and forces you to keep a stack of notes and roll a couple dozen dice every game to see if your army is any good? Nah, nothing wrong there. Seems legit.

"This new Necron codex doesn't seem very good. Mid tier at best; maybe Tyranid level."
- Some guys a couple of years ago.

 Mannahnin wrote:
"This new Necron codex doesn't seem very good. Mid tier at best; maybe Tyranid level."
- Some guys a couple of years ago.

To be fair, necrons was much more mellow in 5th, before the introduction of the flyer rule.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
"This new Necron codex doesn't seem very good. Mid tier at best; maybe Tyranid level."
- Some guys a couple of years ago.

To be fair, necrons was much more mellow in 5th, before the introduction of the flyer rule.

Yet by end of 5th they were considered a top tier army by a large percentage of tournament players. He's just pointing out what happens when we rush to judgement.

 cvtuttle wrote:
Yet by end of 5th they were considered a top tier army by a large percentage of tournament players. He's just pointing out what happens when we rush to judgement.

Wasn't this pretty obvious as soon as they were released? IIRC the general consensus was that they were a solid army, even if they weren't completely broken yet. I don't remember there being any meaningful period of "Necrons suck".

 Ravenous D wrote:

 MDizzle wrote:
After reading this Thread sometimes I think GW could print a codex that says roll on this table and on a roll of an 11 you have to pay GW 50 bucks and people would love it and say that it's fluffy because GW loves money and competitive players can pound sand.

Pretty much.

T3 5++ save foot slogging assault army with no grenades that can screw itself in multiple ways and forces you to keep a stack of notes and roll a couple dozen dice every game to see if your army is any good? Nah, nothing wrong there. Seems legit.

Yeah cause its not like those units are so cheap you can field over 100 of them for under 1000 points, or that they either have 2+ cover saves, throw a crapton of S6 shots, or will rape your opponent (literally in the case of daemonettes) once they make it into assault. On top of which you have just a good a chance of screwing your opponent over as screwing yourself with warp storm. Wow, you know what I just realized? Having an equal chance to screw ether yourself or your opponent? i think they call that BALANCE

I think we call it RANDOM!

 Shandara wrote:
I think we call it RANDOM!

Random Balance

 Peregrine wrote:

 cvtuttle wrote:
Yet by end of 5th they were considered a top tier army by a large percentage of tournament players. He's just pointing out what happens when we rush to judgement.

Wasn't this pretty obvious as soon as they were released? IIRC the general consensus was that they were a solid army, even if they weren't completely broken yet. I don't remember there being any meaningful period of "Necrons suck".

No, there were tons of "Necron's Suck" and are "Tyranid Level" threads when they first came out. This continued for a while, until the first tournament wins started coming in. A very prominent group of Tourney players thought Wraiths, were BAD for a while. Once Templecon and the SVDM results came in with Necrons in first, people started changing their tune quite quickly.

 MDizzle wrote:
Imagine its a Saturday and you have met one of your buddies at the store and you set up your table and get set to play your buddy is paying Chaos Deamons and you are playing SW and you have a Rune Priest as your Warlord and HQ.

The deamon player gets first turn he moves all his models and then he moves to the shooting phase. He rolls an 11 on the chart and points to your warlord he makes you take a leadership test on 3d6 with no saves of any kind allowed and if you fail your Rune priest is dead and a Herald of the deamon players choice is set up 6 inches away from the RP.

I would like to ask how is this fun? Think how fun it would be if it were the swarmlord it's any enemy phyker BTW.

The odds of the swarmlord dying are pretty darn small.
Most 'nid players will have at least 4 psykers. That's a 25% of the swarmlord being targeted.
Look at the chart below. There is an 5.55% chance of the 11 being rolled.
Then there is a 50% of rolling greater than LD 10 on 3d6.
25% * 5.55% * 50% = .69% of it happening per turn.


Even if you only have one psyker, the chances of it dying are .277% per turn. Those are not very high odds.

Well, it is also theoretically possible for the Daemon player to set up his army and then lose turn 1 if they roll very very very very badly due to rolling snake eyes on the Warp Storm and then roll box cars on all his units. Anyone know what the chances of that happening are if you had say 7 units in your army?

Very unlikely, for all those events to happen:
EDIT:

(1/36)^8 even

1 in 2.821.109.907.456 or so?

I suck at math!

 juraigamer wrote:


I prefer to think of this as them trying to kill off their WAAC players.

So Long Fangs, Vendettas and Necron flyers are all going to be 0-1 choices in the next FAQ, right?

Randomness for me but not for thee is an unbalancing factor. It's not even that it keeps you from playing your army the way you'd like to, but it's usually done so badly that it often has the opposite effect of what they tried to do in the first place.

Example: My Chaos Lord on a bike is very fun and killy. He should -want- to be a glory hound and wreck enemy characters. He even has a rule saying so! Unfortunately, because of a random talbe, I am afraid when he WINS challenges. He can turn into a spawn through no bad call of my own, or turn into a Daemon Prince (supposedly a good thing), losing all the stuff I bought him to make him do what I want to do. In fact, making me even remove the model I bought and converted. This is seriously bad design.

Example 2: Much is being made of the fact that the more egregious Warp Storm effects happen only on a 1/36 chance. Those are the odds of boxcars and snake eyes on 2d6, and they pop up in pretty much every game. Warp Storm means between 5-7 rolls a game, assuming one side does not get swept, and the effects are inescapable. It's not like Mindshackle scarabs where I can avoid CC if I don't want to risk my heavy hitter turning coats, or even flyer spam where I can buy a quad gun and cross my fingers. Result turns up, you test and likely lose your Swarmlord, Avatar or Draigo, no matter where they are. There's no mitigating factor, nothing to plan for or counter it. It may as well be a gerbil there rolling dice for your army instead of you.

It's almost like it's some kind of fear based psyker defence...

No way around it? Aside from taking multiple psykers, not taking psykers, using high Ld psykers, taking Ld reroll powers or it not even coming up in the 1/3 ish chance i think someone quoted, in any game.

Putting all your eggs in one psyker basket now runs the risk of you coming up against a daemon player and the stars aligning and your crutch getting blown out from beneath you. It's something you can plan for and now need to. May as well complain because the tourney you went to drew you against 3 Necron bakery lists back to back, that was random too.

I'm a Nid and Eldar player so this can actually hurt me badly but it's just another ability to take into account when sculpting your army. There are ways to mitigate the effectiveness of the ability but if you don't want to plan for them then expect to occasionally get your ass kicked by them, no diffrent to trying to ignore other army elements. You can bet the Daemon player will have those instability rules in his mind when making his army in case he snake eyes it.

Personally I think the Storm sounds great,

I played against the new dex over the weekend. And I have to say, the warpstorm table isn't something worth getting butt hurt about. Stormlord with a crono is more infuriating than the warpstorm table. Every turn my opponent rolled an effect of roll a 6 and the unit takes blah blah hits. It was more or less equated to if bloodletters shot bolters at me for a round. I did lose a psyker to being transformed into a herald. Even at that I was not even phased. I think my exact words were "Oh, cool."

This isn't even close to the rage of a thousand super novas I've seen people display over Imo shooting lightning out of his butt at something. Bottom line, suck it up. Mt. out of Mole...

 Goat wrote:
I played against the new dex over the weekend. And I have to say, the warpstorm table isn't something worth getting butt hurt about. Stormlord with a crono is more infuriating than the warpstorm table. Every turn my opponent rolled an effect of roll a 6 and the unit takes blah blah hits. It was more or less equated to if bloodletters shot bolters at me for a round. I did lose a psyker to being transformed into a herald. Even at that I was not even phased. I think my exact words were "Oh, cool."

This isn't even close to the rage of a thousand super novas I've seen people display over Imo shooting lightning out of his butt at something. Bottom line, suck it up. Mt. out of Mole...

Nothing you've mentioned addresses situations where the outcomes of games can be changed arbitrarily with no connection to what has happened in previous turns.

It seems as though this whole thread is split between people who approach 40k as a more passive, cinematic experience where the goal is to shuffle one's army mans around the board and simply "see what happens" and others who actually enjoy employing tactics and strategy and dislike minimizing their impact on who wins the game. Neither approach is superior to the other (they each simply represent a different way of deriving enjoyment from the game), but people from each camp will naturally react differently (and predictably) to the introduction of the warp storm chart.

 Danny Internets wrote:
Nothing you've mentioned addresses situations where the outcomes of games can be changed arbitrarily with no connection to what has happened in previous turns.

This past weekend I was playing a daemon prince in my CSM army. I cast 'boon of change' on myself on turn 4 and turned my 305 point daemon prince into a spawn.
With one dice roll I completely changed the outcome of the game, with no connection to what happened in previous turns.

This has been in the CSM book since it was released. How is it different now? Because it can now also bone the opponent in addition to the CSM player?

You are not required to cast the boon though.

Warp Storm is automatic.

Well I dont think the table will be banned in tournies as someone else in the thread suggested.

I know that if a TO said "Oh your playing that codex, yeah you can only use these things", then I wouldnt be attending.

Why aren't we talking about how broken and OP heroic morale is on daemonic instability? omg double 1's I just got back everything you thought you killed. GG bro.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xeriapt wrote:
Well I dont think the table will be banned in tournies as someone else in the thread suggested.

I know that if a TO said "Oh your playing that codex, yeah you can only use these things", then I wouldnt be attending.

I agree here. If some TO wanted to sit on some high horse and dismember a codex for whatever reason. Than they should look into all dex's and take out the crap everyone on the internet complains about. There would be a lot of blank pages in a lot of armies codex.

I love how people talk about armies being bland, expensive, bad models, or any of the other crap people complain about for basically no reason and when GW finally adds something with some more flavor people also complain.

The chart is random and mostly irrelevant. So runes of warding on eldar are unbalanced then? leadership tests on 3d6 that cause auto wounds? Seems like a pretty similar thing to me.

 Goat wrote:
Why aren't we talking about how broken and OP heroic morale is on daemonic instability? omg double 1's I just got back everything you thought you killed. GG bro.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xeriapt wrote:
Well I dont think the table will be banned in tournies as someone else in the thread suggested.

I know that if a TO said "Oh your playing that codex, yeah you can only use these things", then I wouldnt be attending.

I agree here. If some TO wanted to sit on some high horse and dismember a codex for whatever reason. Than they should look into all dex's and take out the crap everyone on the internet complains about. There would be a lot of blank pages in a lot of armies codex.

I think the double ones for instability isn't really that big a deal because you don't see double ones very often and if you do you'd have to have lost combat epically along with a large amount of daemons for it to make a large impact.
In the event double ones do come up Id say its more likely you will only be getting a few guys back.

 Danny Internets wrote:

 Goat wrote:
I played against the new dex over the weekend. And I have to say, the warpstorm table isn't something worth getting butt hurt about. Stormlord with a crono is more infuriating than the warpstorm table. Every turn my opponent rolled an effect of roll a 6 and the unit takes blah blah hits. It was more or less equated to if bloodletters shot bolters at me for a round. I did lose a psyker to being transformed into a herald. Even at that I was not even phased. I think my exact words were "Oh, cool."

This isn't even close to the rage of a thousand super novas I've seen people display over Imo shooting lightning out of his butt at something. Bottom line, suck it up. Mt. out of Mole...

Nothing you've mentioned addresses situations where the outcomes of games can be changed arbitrarily with no connection to what has happened in previous turns.

It seems as though this whole thread is split between people who approach 40k as a more passive, cinematic experience where the goal is to shuffle one's army mans around the board and simply "see what happens" and others who actually enjoy employing tactics and strategy and dislike minimizing their impact on who wins the game. Neither approach is superior to the other (they each simply represent a different way of deriving enjoyment from the game), but people from each camp will naturally react differently (and predictably) to the introduction of the warp storm chart.

Let's imagine this as a real war then, set in the 40k universe. Not even tzeentch can get absolutely everything to go exactly as planned. You should expect some random thing's to go wrong, even if it's as simple as draigo having a cold on the day of the battle, or bad weather, or, in the case of facing daemon's, the sky raining fire, and psyker's being at increased risk.

Hell, in real war's, random stuff can affect the outcome, an epidemic of some minor disease, can swing the tide of a battle, and it's not something you can affect, or prevent, it's just the way it is. You can plan, and plan, and something can still go wrong. It's just the way of war.

 Xeriapt wrote:

 Goat wrote:
Why aren't we talking about how broken and OP heroic morale is on daemonic instability? omg double 1's I just got back everything you thought you killed. GG bro.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xeriapt wrote:
Well I dont think the table will be banned in tournies as someone else in the thread suggested.

I know that if a TO said "Oh your playing that codex, yeah you can only use these things", then I wouldnt be attending.

I agree here. If some TO wanted to sit on some high horse and dismember a codex for whatever reason. Than they should look into all dex's and take out the crap everyone on the internet complains about. There would be a lot of blank pages in a lot of armies codex.

I think the double ones for instability isn't really that big a deal because you don't see double ones very often and if you do you'd have to have lost combat epically along with a large amount of daemons for it to make a large impact.
In the event double ones do come up Id say its more likely you will only be getting a few guys back.

That was the intended context of the post. It doesn't happen that often so for all of the outrage of the warpstorm chart, people need to sit back and have a coke and a smile. Yes I understand that something not under your control, whatever that means in a dice game, ruins your master strategic plan for domination... you have to take it for what it is. Part of the army. Necrons have reanimation protocals, space wolves have wolf things, guard has bodies and tanks... armies have things to make them stand out. Otherwise we'd all be playing the same armies, have access to the same units, with all of the same statlines. And even than you wouldn't have a balance.

Dice man... freaking dice, how do they work?

 Goat wrote:
Why aren't we talking about how broken and OP heroic morale is on daemonic instability? omg double 1's I just got back everything you thought you killed. GG bro.

Because that's not a big deal? If they fail their leadership test, they get sucked back into the warp. If the assault went particularly bad and they ended up losing by more than five, then double ones are literally the only thing keeping them from completely and immediately disappearing from the board. With any of the troop daemons, you have a 50% chance of taking extra wounds if you lose by even ONE.

And all you guys whining about "OMG ON 11 A PSYKER GETS POSSESSED" or "ZOMFG YOU GET A NEW UNIT ON 12", have you read the other eight results? One of them includes the possibility of the ENTIRE ARMY BEING DESTROYED INSTANTLY. How OP is that now?

You want something to whine about? What about taking eight Heralds of Tzeentch with Psyker Mastery 3 in squads of 15 Pink Horrors. That's Assault 36D6 S6 shots from one unit. Cry about that, not about the unlikely chance that one of your psykers gets overpowered by the magic energy that he's stealing from the people he's fighting or the extra unit that can try to deepstrike onto the board.