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 labmouse42 wrote:
This past weekend I was playing a daemon prince in my CSM army. I cast 'boon of change' on myself on turn 4 and turned my 305 point daemon prince into a spawn.
With one dice roll I completely changed the outcome of the game, with no connection to what happened in previous turns.

This has been in the CSM book since it was released. How is it different now? Because it can now also bone the opponent in addition to the CSM player?

It was different because it was a CHOICE. You knew the results, you chose to gamble on the random table. If you don't like that random element you could have just not made that gamble. The warp storm table is not random, if you agree to play against a demon player you have to deal with it.

 Psienesis wrote:
It's not a completely different issue, not at all, and not really. What I'm getting from this is that it's OK to bring an Army that contains special rules or wargear that nukes the other army (whether that's Warp-Quake, Mindshackle Scarabs, Purifiers, a fethload of fliers, a buttload of barrage artillery, JotWW, whatever)... but a single table that's rolled, what, once? that has a chance of affecting a single character from an army that has to even contain that character-type for that result to mean anything, and if it contains multiples of that character-type its effect is randomly distributed, but has equal chance of affecting the Daemon army negatively, or at least differently, is bad?

That... just sounds like whining to me, really.

It sounds like whining, because it is whining.

 Peregrine wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
This past weekend I was playing a daemon prince in my CSM army. I cast 'boon of change' on myself on turn 4 and turned my 305 point daemon prince into a spawn.
With one dice roll I completely changed the outcome of the game, with no connection to what happened in previous turns.

This has been in the CSM book since it was released. How is it different now? Because it can now also bone the opponent in addition to the CSM player?

It was different because it was a CHOICE. You knew the results, you chose to gamble on the random table. If you don't like that random element you could have just not made that gamble. The warp storm table is not random, if you agree to play against a demon player you have to deal with it.

So? You now have a new choice if you're expecting/know you're going up against Daemons;
a) Bring extra Psykers to help mitigate the remote chance your main psyker suddenly poofs into a new Herald
b) Don't bring any Psykers and then that result is 100% useless to the Daemon player.
c) Just live with it.

Just to show you guys how rare rolls of 1,2,11 and 12 are:

2D6 Outcome probability:
2 - 2.78%
3 - 5.56%
4 - 8.33%
5 - 11.11%
6 - 13.89%
7 - 16.67%
8 - 13.89%
9 - 11.11%
10 - 8.33%
11 - 5.56%
12 - 2.78%

3D6 Outcome probability:

Probability of a sum of 3: 1/216 = 0.5%
Probability of a sum of 4: 3/216 = 1.4%
Probability of a sum of 5: 6/216 = 2.8%
Probability of a sum of 6: 10/216 = 4.6%
Probability of a sum of 7: 15/216 = 7.0%
Probability of a sum of 8: 21/216 = 9.7%
Probability of a sum of 9: 25/216 = 11.6%
Probability of a sum of 10: 27/216 = 12.5%
Probability of a sum of 11: 27/216 = 12.5%
Probability of a sum of 12: 25/216 = 11.6%
Probability of a sum of 13: 21/216 = 9.7%
Probability of a sum of 14: 15/216 = 7.0%
Probability of a sum of 15: 10/216 = 4.6%
Probability of a sum of 16: 6/216 = 2.8%
Probability of a sum of 17: 3/216 = 1.4%
Probability of a sum of 18: 1/216 = 0.5%

 Psienesis wrote:
It's not a completely different issue, not at all, and not really. What I'm getting from this is that it's OK to bring an Army that contains special rules or wargear that nukes the other army (whether that's Warp-Quake, Mindshackle Scarabs, Purifiers, a fethload of fliers, a buttload of barrage artillery, JotWW, whatever)... but a single table that's rolled, what, once? that has a chance of affecting a single character from an army that has to even contain that character-type for that result to mean anything, and if it contains multiples of that character-type its effect is randomly distributed, but has equal chance of affecting the Daemon army negatively, or at least differently, is bad?

That... just sounds like whining to me, really.

...

Okay. You're not understanding

List tailoring is bad, tactics that piss off your opponent are bad, rules that you have no control over are bad. a table that MUST be rolled on 5 to 7 times per game that can nuke you is bad. Savvy?

I can not control when your drop pods with JotWW come in, therefore we need to ban droppods, right?

This thread is long in the tooth as it is. And we are fighting about something that is truly so inconsequential as this.

I find it fascinating that you people who cry that this Warp Storm table is bad for 40k.

It has been stated that you agree to play Daemons? You agree to play with their rules. INTACT!
The same goes to GK, Necrons, DA, BA, Tyranids, Tau, SM, CSM, Eldar, DE, Orks, Sisters, IG, THE WORKS PEOPLE!!

Forget what the results are. Forget what the comparative lists are, abilities, etc. etc.
This has become a giant shouting match of ONE TINY F-ASPECT of a NEW AND UNTRIED CODEX!

The Warpstorm Table is good because it has done EXACTLY what it was intended to do, and that is this: force people out of their comfort zones, force people to THINK, force people to REACT, force people to PLAY THE GAME. If you wanted to just run your comfortable lists of mathhammered to the result of victory because of the rules, then you, sir or madam, can go and shove your head where the sun don't shine, because you are being asinine. You have the right to either play by the rules, with the rules, or you can sell your army and not play, or you can just be TFG for being a scumbag, and then don't be surprised when people refuse to play you because of it.

Games change, get over it. Things change, get over it. The warp storm table is good because it has changed the nature of the game from being "predictable" to being "fun."

Then again, if we want to just agree my Daemons have +1 to all ++ and an additional 2000 points to make up for the lack of my special rules and my shooting, and because I say so because you say you don't want to play with the table, sure, I'll do that.

Seriously, you people who are complaining, get a life. You make me sick because you want to be TFG with the WAAC because you want to be comfortable with your win streak and never lose. *stepping down off my *

Here is some more statistics:

In a 7 round game, there is a 38% chance of rolling a warp storm result of 11. Assuming a Leadership 10 for the Psyker being hit, you have a 59.8% chance of not having your Psyker killed. Or on average you might loose a single Psyker against Daemons every 5 games or so. That is if you even play with an army that uses Psykers.

You guys have it all wrong this table creates random things that can be upsetting for both players in many different ways that's why it's bad for 40k.

Randomly creating things that upset both players? So, random things are worse than things that are deliberately broken, OP, and accepted to be such?

I disagree with you. If a random event is the only way to deal with something (which it ALWAYS IS) then the more random, the better.

It's Chaos. Random is the name of the Chaos Game. That's how Chaos was introduced to the game (check out the table of Gifts of Chaos from Slaves to Darkness and The Lost and the Damned) and is how it should have stayed.

Qui-Gon Jinn wrote:
The warp storm table is good because it has changed the nature of the game from being "predictable" to being "fun."

"Unpredictable" and "fun" are not the same thing. IMO the game is more fun when the outcome is determined by decisions made by the players, not by a random table saying "oops, I lose".

Then again, if we want to just agree my Daemons have +1 to all ++ and an additional 2000 points to make up for the lack of my special rules and my shooting, and because I say so because you say you don't want to play with the table, sure, I'll do that.

Or we could just not play a game at all. You're not going to get some ridiculous bonus to make up for losing the table, those people just aren't going to play against you unless you agree to remove it.

Seriously, you people who are complaining, get a life. You make me sick because you want to be TFG with the WAAC because you want to be comfortable with your win streak and never lose. *stepping down off my *

Imagine how little fun it is playing against TFG with a "WAAC" army. Now imagine how much less fun it is when TFG, on top of all their advantages, gets better luck on the game-changing random table.

But think of how delicious the irony will be when TFG's deathstar unit suddenly explodes in a ball of rending flesh and damonic talons...

 Psienesis wrote:
But think of how delicious the irony will be when TFG's deathstar unit suddenly explodes in a ball of rending flesh and damonic talons...

And that will also suck, because instead of beating TFG through superior play you "win" because you rolled the right result on the random table. I hardly see how this is better than just not playing TFG at all.

 Psienesis wrote:
But think of how delicious the irony will be when TFG's deathstar unit suddenly explodes in a ball of rending flesh and damonic talons...

Or you could just take The Masque. She does the same thing, just more guaranteed.

Point being, unless the game is changed to the point where every miniature has identical stats to every other unit of its type (ie, all Troops units are identical, all Heavy Support units are identical, all Elites are identical, etc), there will always be areas where TFGs can be TFGs. Whining that this randomly-generated list of effects is another tool for TFG to be TFG is missing the point that its random nature is as likely to ruin TFG's day... though if he's a smart TFG, he'll have units arranged to mitigate worst-case scenarios, which, really, any smart player should be doing.

Qui-Gon Jinn wrote:
This thread is long in the tooth as it is. And we are fighting about something that is truly so inconsequential as this.

I find it fascinating that you people who cry that this Warp Storm table is bad for 40k.

It has been stated that you agree to play Daemons? You agree to play with their rules. INTACT!
The same goes to GK, Necrons, DA, BA, Tyranids, Tau, SM, CSM, Eldar, DE, Orks, Sisters, IG, THE WORKS PEOPLE!!

Forget what the results are. Forget what the comparative lists are, abilities, etc. etc.
This has become a giant shouting match of ONE TINY F-ASPECT of a NEW AND UNTRIED CODEX!

The Warpstorm Table is good because it has done EXACTLY what it was intended to do, and that is this: force people out of their comfort zones, force people to THINK, force people to REACT, force people to PLAY THE GAME. If you wanted to just run your comfortable lists of mathhammered to the result of victory because of the rules, then you, sir or madam, can go and shove your head where the sun don't shine, because you are being asinine. You have the right to either play by the rules, with the rules, or you can sell your army and not play, or you can just be TFG for being a scumbag, and then don't be surprised when people refuse to play you because of it.

Games change, get over it. Things change, get over it. The warp storm table is good because it has changed the nature of the game from being "predictable" to being "fun."

Then again, if we want to just agree my Daemons have +1 to all ++ and an additional 2000 points to make up for the lack of my special rules and my shooting, and because I say so because you say you don't want to play with the table, sure, I'll do that.

Seriously, you people who are complaining, get a life. You make me sick because you want to be TFG with the WAAC because you want to be comfortable with your win streak and never lose. *stepping down off my *

*slow clap*

Well said sir!
If someone were to try and tell me they'd only play if I dropped my "randomly game-wrecking & unfun Warpstorm table", I'd tell 'em to p-off and instead I'd go find a real opponent to play against.

 Psienesis wrote:
Point being, unless the game is changed to the point where every miniature has identical stats to every other unit of its type (ie, all Troops units are identical, all Heavy Support units are identical, all Elites are identical, etc), there will always be areas where TFGs can be TFGs. Whining that this randomly-generated list of effects is another tool for TFG to be TFG is missing the point that its random nature is as likely to ruin TFG's day... though if he's a smart TFG, he'll have units arranged to mitigate worst-case scenarios, which, really, any smart player should be doing.

QTF. Seriously, you've got the concept. Here are quotes that are apt for this table:

"Prepare for the unknown by studying how others in the past have coped with the unforeseeable and the unpredictable."

"Accept the challenges so that you can feel the exhilaration of victory."

If you don't want the table, never play Daemons, never play against Daemons, but then don't be surprised when you piss someone off about it. The table is good for 40k, because it forces both players to react to something that isn't there from the outset.

 Psienesis wrote:
Point being, unless the game is changed to the point where every miniature has identical stats to every other unit of its type (ie, all Troops units are identical, all Heavy Support units are identical, all Elites are identical, etc), there will always be areas where TFGs can be TFGs.

Nonsense. Unless you're defining "TFG" as "trying to optimize a list for winning games" (which is a ridiculous definition and makes you TFG) then having variety in the game has nothing to do with TFG. TFG is about cheating/rules lawyering/refusing to shower more than once a month/rude behavior/etc, not just bringing a better list than you have. These things will exist no matter what the game's rules are, you can have TFGs in a perfectly symmetrical game like chess just as easily as you can in 40k.

Also, you can have a balanced game without having identical units.

Whining that this randomly-generated list of effects is another tool for TFG to be TFG is missing the point that its random nature is as likely to ruin TFG's day... though if he's a smart TFG, he'll have units arranged to mitigate worst-case scenarios, which, really, any smart player should be doing.

You're missing the point entirely. The random chart is bad for both players. People have been gleefully celebrating how horrible it is for TFG/WAAC players, but completely missing the point that a game against a "WAAC" demon player is going to be even less fun if the WAAC player gets lucky with the random table. There isn't some magical rule that annoying players will only roll badly on the table.

Qui-Gon Jinn wrote:
The table is good for 40k, because it forces both players to react to something that isn't there from the outset.

You know what's good about forcing players to react to something that isn't there from the outset? Decisions made by the players.

So, then I must ask: which is worse for 40k as a whole, this table or the broken lists of the previous Codex+WD update?

If you want to remove this table, then please, let us also remove Preferred Enemy (Daemons) from all GK units while we're at it. ATSKNF from Space Marines? Inner Circle from Dark Angels? Mob rule for Orks?

In fact, one final thing: if you don't like what the table is and what it does, please, enlighten us with a far more "balanced" alternative.

Before things get too heated, I would like to say that I do not find this table very fun.

I play a combination of IG and BA. I do it so that I can play a semi-competitive list, I do it because I enjoy the books and I do it because it fits the background of the army I play. I like to run a few Psykers because I like what they bring to the table. Every Psyker I have is either a Dreadnought or converted in some way.

So now I can look forward to walking up to a game, setting out my converted BA librarian and then getting to remove him because my opponent rolled an 11. I don't think that is very fun for either party.

And for the record, I didn't enjoy SW JoTWW, I didn't enjoy 5th edition Grey Knights and I do not enjoy Necron Flyer Spam or the Triple Heldrake list. And somehow not liking these things because I do not find them very fun makes me a WAAC player.

Very Interesting.

 Happygrunt wrote:
So now I can look forward to walking up to a game, setting out my converted BA librarian and then getting to remove him because my opponent rolled an 11. I don't think that is very fun for either party.

Yup. You can look forward to that about 2.77% of the time, according to math early in the thread. Your odds of losing him to a S8+ hit where you fail your LoS are considerably higher.

Game design theory is a very interesting topic, but its being conflated here with a bunch of irrelevant stuff and labels with high emotional content.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Point being, unless the game is changed to the point where every miniature has identical stats to every other unit of its type (ie, all Troops units are identical, all Heavy Support units are identical, all Elites are identical, etc), there will always be areas where TFGs can be TFGs.

Nonsense. Unless you're defining "TFG" as "trying to optimize a list for winning games" (which is a ridiculous definition and makes you TFG) then having variety in the game has nothing to do with TFG. TFG is about cheating/rules lawyering/refusing to shower more than once a month/rude behavior/etc, not just bringing a better list than you have. These things will exist no matter what the game's rules are, you can have TFGs in a perfectly symmetrical game like chess just as easily as you can in 40k.

If being an elitist means "simply not being the dumbest mother-fether in the room", then I'll be an elitist!

But, really, if you're afraid that your list is going to suddenly come entirely apart because you fell into a hole in the Warp and had your giblets gobbled by Daemons, then did you really bring a better list than the other guy? Or did you bring a list that had 1 guy who could be killed by random dice-roll, or a DCA or a IG HW squad with a fething 50-cent las-cannon? It's not the table that killed your army, it's the fact that you placed all the faith in your army in one guy. One. Flipping. Guy.

... and then Zuvassin, the Undoer, decided to feth with your plans and so ate your guy. Zuvassin, Chaos God of the Eternal Monkey-Wrench, was all up in your base, killing your guys.

 Janthkin wrote:

 Happygrunt wrote:
So now I can look forward to walking up to a game, setting out my converted BA librarian and then getting to remove him because my opponent rolled an 11. I don't think that is very fun for either party.

Yup. You can look forward to that about 2.77% of the time, according to math early in the thread. Your odds of losing him to a S8+ hit where you fail your LoS are considerably higher.

Game design theory is a very interesting topic, but its being conflated here with a bunch of irrelevant stuff and labels with high emotional content.

Never mind then, math was never my strong suit. I had it in the realm of 27%, which would be upsetting.

I still don't like the table, but less so then before.

Qui-Gon Jinn wrote:
So, then I must ask: which is worse for 40k as a whole, this table or the broken lists of the previous Codex+WD update?

Sigh. "But X is bad too!" isn't a valid argument. Other things can be bad at the same time, and that doesn't mean it's any less of a stupid decision to include it.

In fact, one final thing: if you don't like what the table is and what it does, please, enlighten us with a far more "balanced" alternative.

Remove it entirely.

 Peregrine wrote:

Qui-Gon Jinn wrote:
So, then I must ask: which is worse for 40k as a whole, this table or the broken lists of the previous Codex+WD update?

Sigh. "But X is bad too!" isn't a valid argument. Other things can be bad at the same time, and that doesn't mean it's any less of a stupid decision to include it.

In fact, one final thing: if you don't like what the table is and what it does, please, enlighten us with a far more "balanced" alternative.

Remove it entirely.

Sorry, but they don't have any real reason to remove it, aside from another player's whining.

So we should also remove MSS, Warp-Quake, Eternal Warrior, Force Weapons, ID, Longfangs, TH/SS, uh... lemme think... I know I can come up with a few other things that people have QQ'd about on the forums in the past year or so.... that one Doom of Malatai power that eats brains or something through force-fields.... oh, someone kvetched about their melee-Tyranids getting shot to pieces by an IG gunline, so we should remove IG gunline armies, too. In fact, just remove the BS stat from IG entirely. They're now old-school Infantry... all cloth and leather armor with swords and a wood shield. Actually, there's been enough kvetching about both GK and SW over the last year that allows us to say, you know what? let's just rub those two Chapters out entirely. *Poof!* Gone.

Also, let's get rid of that Lucius guy. What a jerk, amiright? That Skulltaker is kind of an unmitigated ass-beater, too, isn't he? Not fair to all the other ICs whose skulls he takes. And Trazyn? Such a knee-biter. And Tachyon Arrow? It never stops. Let's just pull that out, lest it blast through someone's tank and hit their HQ right in the face. Someone could lose an eye!

I must defer to a recent article from Taco Bell (one that was surprisingly critical, given the usual “Rah! Rah! Everything is wonderful!” mantra of their ‘reviews’):

[The] Warp Storm table. The major thing to note here is that it happens at the start of each of your shooting phase, and some of the results are just unwanted and overdone. The ones that really stand out is the 11, which basically picks an enemy psyker and makes him test 3D6 for leadership. If he fails, he's killed outright and you get a free Herald of your choice. Now, I don't know about you guys, but I've never found anything that just does something to you, without any player control, for free, to be good game design. Things like Dante's mask and this just makes you start off the game angry, and frustrates the other player who has no protection against pure luck and zero skill. As you make your way through the table, you'll find that almost every roll has a consequence for a particular god, so if you have a heavily chromatic-god army, you'll be rolling a D6 every turn just in case you get hate on by a rival god. Sure, you need a 6 for something to happen, and it can very well effect your enemy more than you, but this is completely out of the player's control. Sometimes you you gain +1 to your invulnerable save army-wide, sometimes you -1 to your invulnerable. And sometimes, like the enemy psyker, you just blow up. You literally blow your up own Greater Demon before the game even starts.

Can't really disagree. I think things like the Warp Storm table are bad for 40K. All of this "cinematic gaming" and "forging a narrative" nonsense is starting to take the game away from the players, and leave it all to the random whims of some cubed objects. I'm sorry, I'd like to play the game, not watch my army get fethed over because of a bad roll on a single table each turn.

 Peregrine wrote:
It's cinematic.

*claps*

Thank you.

 Psienesis wrote:
So we should also remove MSS, Warp-Quake, Eternal Warrior, Force Weapons, ID, Longfangs, TH/SS, uh... lemme think... I know I can come up with a few other things that people have QQ'd about on the forums in the past year or so.... that one Doom of Malatai power that eats brains or something through force-fields.... oh, someone kvetched about their melee-Tyranids getting shot to pieces by an IG gunline, so we should remove IG gunline armies, too. In fact, just remove the BS stat from IG entirely. They're now old-school Infantry... all cloth and leather armor with swords and a wood shield. Actually, there's been enough kvetching about both GK and SW over the last year that allows us to say, you know what? let's just rub those two Chapters out entirely. *Poof!* Gone.

Also, let's get rid of that Lucius guy. What a jerk, amiright? That Skulltaker is kind of an unmitigated ass-beater, too, isn't he? Not fair to all the other ICs whose skulls he takes. And Trazyn? Such a knee-biter. And Tachyon Arrow? It never stops. Let's just pull that out, lest it blast through someone's tank and hit their HQ right in the face. Someone could lose an eye!

Exhalted

Chaos =/= Random.

 Evileyes wrote:
Mysterious terrain, razorwing's eat your scouts.

Yeah. And no one likes those rules either.

This game shouldn't be RandomHammer 40,000.