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 Palindrome wrote:


I'm quite sure that the current government will leave its share of turds as well.

With the 5 star movement gaining such a massive following in Italy I wonder if the same thing will happen here by the next election. Uk politics are certainly stale and self serving enough, even if not quite on the same level of Italy.

Oh I have no doubt, but I was getting annoyed with Labours attempts to circumvent the protocols put in place to protect us from deeper integration with the EU last time, and they burned any trust I had in them.

The sad thing is I was happy when Labour got in, and voted for them on the second term, but years of surrendering things to Europe and trying to put us into a united states of Europe against the majority wishes of the people has burned all the bridges I had with them.

Now I just get annoyed with their policies in general, and they make it worse every time I hear one of their stooges blame the current government for something they instigated or caused while they where in power, like we've all been taking stupid pills and forgotten it was them.

 BryllCream wrote:


Focus on what labour did do wrong, don't just recite Tory rhetoric as if it's your own opinion - your words were written by top tory spin doctors.

That is my opinion, and I didn't say that was the cause for anything, or are you seriously denying they stupidly sold all our gold, and left the country in a large debt?

The recession thanks to the banking crisis just made everything ten times worse.

We should reform the EU, step away with the rest of the Northern European nations and reform a new union with them.

 BryllCream wrote:

Albatross wrote:
It works for other countries, why not us?

It doesn't. The Norwegians and the Swiss both lose out because they're not in the EU.

In what way do the Norwegians and Swiss lose out, compared to say Greece or Ireland? Both Norway and Switzerland have something which you claim to be impossible - a free trade agreement with the EU.

We can buy their goods fine, but if they want to buy ours then our products will have to conform to EU standards. Which is moot since we export naff all actual products anyway.

That's nonsense. Britain is a global leader in high-tech industries and pharmaceuticals, to name but two. We're also a net exporter of motor vehicles. And you failed to factor in the possibility of us applying protectionist tariffs on incoming goods. That would be bad for EU business, because, as I've already pointed out, we import more from the EU than we export. We buy many billions of pounds worth of European goods.

They are trying to, any we are trying to stop them. If we were not in the EU they would simply do it. Isn't that obvious? Business will not "migrate" to London, as London is the only place in the EU where banking reaches insane heights. Pension investors in Frankfurt aren't going to emigrate to London any time soon.

Really? Tell that to France.

Albatross wrote:
Which is already happening.

No it's not. British farmers are free to sell their beef, meat and cheese to Europe. Were we to leave, the French would almost definitely push the EU into slapping a tariff on our agricultural produce. Coupled with the loss of the CAP subsidy and you're looking at the end of agriculture in Britain.

Nonsense. What about the farming subsidies we pay to the EU? There's nothing stopping us paying them to our own farmers. The Americans do that, and its successful. And what about EU fishing quotas? You didn't address that.

Albatross wrote:
Hmm. To who?

I don't know if the Germans, Dutch et al would be as keen on the EU without the UK. More likely northern Europe would form their own trading bloc, without rubbish southern states dragging them down.

I'd be into a Northern European free-trade bloc.

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:
Hmm, our missing gold and insane debt that the Tories have had to struggle with since they took power would want to have words with you.

Right, no. Labour didn't cause the debt crisis, the recession did.

We were one of the countries most exposed to it, in the wake of our levels of national debt. Who presided over that again? Light touch was Labour policy, as far as the city was concerned.

Labour was also the most draconian government we've had in a generation. They did away with basic civil liberties like freedom of speech and assembly, habeas corpus, massively ramped up surveillance... they also dragged us into a series of pointless and costly wars, and negotiated us into a ridiculously unbalanced and obsequious extradition treaty with the Yanks. I don't have all day, so I won't enumerate the entirety of the colossal cock-up that the Labour decade was, but I can come back later and continue if you'd like.

 Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:

That is my opinion, and I didn't say that was the cause for anything, or are you seriously denying they stupidly sold all our gold, and left the country in a large debt?

I do deny that.



The Labour government did increase debt like the tories want you to believe. Our public debt was lower than Germany's, the USA's, Japan's, France's...pretty much everyone.

It also grew at a higher rate than anyone else's. We've been through this.

Albatross - I'm not going to argue with Rupert Murdoch. Come back when you have your own opinions, eh?

 Albatross wrote:

And what about EU fishing quotas? You didn't address that.

Um, first, quotas are now gone, or will be next year, and second if it wasn't for the EU the UK would have a much more restrictive fishing system. The UK govenment has been for a long time said that the current system is leading to overfishing. Without the EU law we would be taking less, not more. Personaly I think the commen fisherys policy is wrong, but not because of the restrictions are too tight, but because they are too loose.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
We should reform the EU, step away with the rest of the Northern European nations and reform a new union with them.

I think this was part of the issue, why did they think breaking their own financial rules so they could bring in all the European nations was a good idea. Yes you could say it was a little elitist, but we certainly would not be having the Greece issue.

Some of the EU nations are just not ready for it, and have been a constant drain of EU finances.

I suspect the EU could still be of some merit, but it really needs to refocus and really sort itself out, some of the 'behind doors' revelations about the expenses culture within the EU Parliament is quite horrifying and makes our lot look like kiddies sneaking out of the fate with some iced buns in comparison.

On saying that, a UK/Scandinavia alliance could be good.

If we broke with the EU, we could implement a less wasteful and more sustainable system for fishing as Iceland has done, where skippers can purchase each other's excess instead of it being dumped into the ocean, killing the seabed where it falls. Also we can begin shutting off nursery areas of the British coast seasonally and policing the French and Spanish fleets which are currently exploiting our waters.

I strongly dislike UKIP because of their attempts to influence referenda on Europe in Ireland through the distribution of leaflets and other material through people's letter boxes.

UKIP, stay the hell out of Ireland's democratic process.

 Da Boss wrote:
I strongly dislike UKIP because of their attempts to influence referenda on Europe in Ireland through the distribution of leaflets and other material through people's letter boxes.

UKIP, stay the hell out of Ireland's democratic process.

That's right UKIP, interfering in Ireland's democratic process is the EU's job!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BryllCream wrote:
Albatross - I'm not going to argue with Rupert Murdoch. Come back when you have your own opinions, eh?

If you have no counter-argument, don't be too proud to just admit you're wrong. There's no need to be petulant. If my opinions are so laughably incorrect, please, feel free to refute them.

And let me guess, I'm just a media dupe, whereas you, you're an incisive visionary, swimming against the tide. You have the inside track on history, on what's really going on in the world. Wake up, sheeple!

Or are you just another Guardian reader?




You're fun. I might let you live.

 Da Boss wrote:
I strongly dislike UKIP because of their attempts to influence referenda on Europe in Ireland through the distribution of leaflets and other material through people's letter boxes.

UKIP, stay the hell out of Ireland's democratic process.

That is surely one of the least effective things tho do, UKIP telling the Irish to be pro European would have been more effective.

We got a UKIP leaflet through the door a while ago and my wife genuinely thought that it was from the BNP.

No I refuse to read the guardian, it is poorly written and its politics are wishy washy liberal crap.

I was just saying that every single thing that you said has been torn strait out of the editorial columns of the Sun newspaper, and when it became apparent that you lacked the intellectual backing to it, it became apparent to me that you'd simply read them yourself in some murdoch rag, or on the internet, or on tv.

Even your personal attacks against me sound like something Rod Liddle would write about Paddy Ashdown


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Palindrome wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
I strongly dislike UKIP because of their attempts to influence referenda on Europe in Ireland through the distribution of leaflets and other material through people's letter boxes.

UKIP, stay the hell out of Ireland's democratic process.

That is surely one of the least effective things tho do, UKIP telling the Irish to be pro European would have been more effective.

It's refreshing to see a political party that has not accepted realpolitik as its guiding ideal. They oppose a measure, so they campaign against it. Nothing wrong with that.

There is something wrong with it if they're a political party from another country. Albatross: point out where the EU has interfered in that way?

 BryllCream wrote:

It's refreshing to see a political party that has not accepted realpolitik as its guiding ideal. They oppose a measure, so they campaign against it. Nothing wrong with that.

Even when it could only have an effect which goes against their goal?

Yes, at least they have integrity. When was the last time the Tories or Labour felt so strongly about an idea that they spent their own party's money to advocate it in another country?

 BryllCream wrote:
No I refuse to read the guardian, it is poorly written and its politics are wishy washy liberal crap.

I was just saying that every single thing that you said has been torn strait out of the editorial columns of the Sun newspaper, and when it became apparent that you lacked the intellectual backing to it, it became apparent to me that you'd simply read them yourself in some murdoch rag, or on the internet, or on tv.

Yet, facile as my arguments apparently are, you still haven't been able to challenge them. And if we're getting into intellectual dick-measuring, I'd happily stack my degree results against yours. I'll start: I got a First. What did you get?

I hold the opinions I do based upon my perception of the facts, same as most people. I'm a member of the Conservative party because I hold these opinions, not vice versa. And I don't read any newspapers, because its 2013.

I have mixed views on both the EU and UKIP

I have no great issue with the general principle of a European Union, but in practice it is a badly run pig trough.

I also have no issue in principle with people coming here to work (work being the operative word) but on the other hand I lived in a flat below a Polish couple and they were a nightmare.

As for UKIP, they are livening up UK politics (which is a good thing) and offer the one thing that other parties don't, which is a choice on EU membership (choice being the operative word).

On the other hand, their wider policies are flawed which makes them difficult to take seriously.

 Da Boss wrote:
Albatross: point out where the EU has interfered in that way?

I wasn't being serious.

I'm not a fan of the EU as is - it is neither one thing nor another and has the bad bits of both

I think one of the reasons people have stopped having referendums on whether they want to be in the EU or not is because the EU isn't getting the answer it wants... ever

I'm all for a trade partnership with the associated standards and so on, but don't think we are ready for a political union yet, and especially not in the form we have now... whatever the hell kind of an abomination it is...

It's funny, I'm almost pathologically pragmatic apart from in matters of national sovereignty. It's the one thing that brings out the idealist in me, and in many Brits, it seems. We're a pretty pragmatic bunch in general, but when it comes to other people telling us how to run our country... hoo boy. It brings out the worst in us.

Ironic, really.

 Albatross wrote:
It's funny, I'm almost pathologically pragmatic apart from in matters of national sovereignty. It's the one thing that brings out the idealist in me, and in many Brits, it seems. We're a pretty pragmatic bunch in general, but when it comes to other people telling us how to run our country... hoo boy. It brings out the worst in us.

Ironic, really.

Hmmm... that's sounds really familiar...

 whembly wrote:

 Albatross wrote:
It's funny, I'm almost pathologically pragmatic apart from in matters of national sovereignty. It's the one thing that brings out the idealist in me, and in many Brits, it seems. We're a pretty pragmatic bunch in general, but when it comes to other people telling us how to run our country... hoo boy. It brings out the worst in us.

Ironic, really.

Hmmm... that's sounds really familiar...

Well, where did you think you fethers got it from? We're your dear old mum, after all.

 Albatross wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Albatross wrote:
It's funny, I'm almost pathologically pragmatic apart from in matters of national sovereignty. It's the one thing that brings out the idealist in me, and in many Brits, it seems. We're a pretty pragmatic bunch in general, but when it comes to other people telling us how to run our country... hoo boy. It brings out the worst in us.

Ironic, really.

Hmmm... that's sounds really familiar...

Well, where did you think you fethers got it from? We're your dear old mum, after all.

Yup... we're one big:

I intend to vote UKIP, because:
1) Labour had their chance and screwed it up

2) The Conservatives aren't conservative, and...

3) Because as far as I'm concerned, the Lib-Dems are a bunch of Liberal, europhilic, spineless, myopic, brown-nosing eunuchs, led by a snivelling nonentity who only emerges from under the boot of his wife for a brief bout of hypocrisy, who made promises and singularly failed to uphold them.

"What's that? no rise in university fees? well, I'll vote for that... oh wait, when you said "no rise in tuition fees" you meant "We'll raise tuition fees to £9000 a year." Gee thanks."

Plus I feel that we should be able to deport terrorists, no matter what the European court of human rights says.

Rant over //

Also, Albatross, I found myself exalting several of your comments, well said sir, very well said.

 Dark Apostle 666 wrote:

3) Because as far as I'm concerned, the Lib-Dems are a bunch of Liberal, europhilic, spineless, myopic, brown-nosing eunuchs, led by a snivelling nonentity who only emerges from under the boot of his wife for a brief bout of hypocrisy, who made promises and singularly failed to uphold them.

This brought a tear to my eye it was so beautiful and I was laughing so hard. Take an exalt sir.

I'm not that keen on UKIP, but that's more because I disagree with a single policy platform than anything else. If you intend to make any serious headway, you need to give people some idea of what you stand for for apart from wanting to leave the EU.

Economic bad times often lead to a rise of disgusting right wing politics, look at elsewhere in Europe such as Greece.

I hate everything about UKIP. The fact they set themselves up as anti-EU while happily taking their wages from the EU. The fact they used to call benefit claimants (including the disabled) a "parasitic underclass of scroungers," that is until they started courting Labour voters, now that policy page is 404. The fact they want to remove NI for employers and replace it with nothing, or remove the higher rate of tax while raising tax on the poor. The fact they lie about europe at every opportunity. The fact they want to cut the NHS while increasing the army. Or the climate change denial. Or the love of homoeopathy. Or the sacking of people with pro-homosexual rights views. Or the ideal of closing state education. Or the Islamophobia.

I feel pity for those who have joined them from an anti-politics position, because they are just as sly and corrupt as the rest. But those who love the aggressive, nationalistic, bigoted, racist aspect can go and die in a fire.

 whembly wrote:

Yup... we're one big:

Cluster feth?

I hope they win a few seats, don't really agree with them but they'll give a kick up the arse our current politics needs if they do well in 2015.