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Made in au
Frothing Warhound of Chaos




NSW Australia

I've played mono Tzeentch daemons for a couple of years on and off now, and looking through the new codex the first impression is that my army just got screwed.

I speak of course of the new Warpflame rule which is now on all Tzeentch ranged weapons. To make matters worse my main opponents are Plague Marines and Nids. So the Plague Marines will highly likely be getting bonuses (probably multiple) to their FNP and I won't be casting much against Nids now that I have to make Psychic tests to use any of my powers.

Is it time to retire them or am I missing something?

   
Made in us
Ruthless Rafkin






Glen Burnie, MD

We all have to change our armies now, man. Try adding daemonettes and seekers.



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Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought






Horrors are fantastic at objective camping now. Heralds have divination. Tzeentch is great as long as you don't go past those 2 expectations.

Chaos isn’t a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail, and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, but refuse. They cling to the realm, or love, or the gods…illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is, but they’ll never know this. Not until it’s too late.


 
   
Made in gb
Boom! Leman Russ Commander




Northampton

Mono Tzeentch is looking to be the weakest list in the book.

Too much can go wrong with deny the witch, the warpflame rule and the many ways of stopping psychic powers.

Mr Mystery wrote:Suffice to say, if any of this is actually true, then clearly Elvis is hiding behind my left testicle, and Lord Lucan behind the right.
 
   
Made in au
Frenzied Juggernaut





Australia

Mono Tzeentch is how I have always loved to play my daemons.

Yes you will give out FnP like its going out of fashion if your just hosing all the enemy units on the board and spreading your fire.

Best tactic to use in the case of ranged units is to focus fire, take out whole units. This makes even more so of a difference for Tzeentch units.


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Made in gb
Boom! Leman Russ Commander




Northampton

I've not settled on a mono theme yet and Tzeentch intrigues me on a painting perspective... I'm colour blind to pink lol, but about the list gaming wise, it might be a hoot.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/07 12:58:01


Mr Mystery wrote:Suffice to say, if any of this is actually true, then clearly Elvis is hiding behind my left testicle, and Lord Lucan behind the right.
 
   
Made in us
Maddening Mutant Boss of Chaos





Boston

Tzeentch armies' weakness against anti-psyker armies really is crippling. Against 'nids, Eldar, and certain Space Wolves armies, mono-Tzeentch really doesn't stand a chance. For 50% of their turns in those games, Horrors will be able to do nothing but wait to be charged.

To help balance things out, I'll be trying combination Tz/Khorne lists, hoping that Khorne's anti-psychic abilities might help balance things out in games in which my Horrors and Heralds are rendered useless.

   
Made in au
Frothing Warhound of Chaos




NSW Australia

Perhaps I was being pessimistic and overreacting.

I assumed that the warpflame rule would be cumulative, could someone clarify whether or not that is the case? If so I guess focusing on eradicating a squad in one turn would be the best solution rather then a spray and pray approach as Xeriapt suggests.

Puscifer wrote:
I've not settled on a mono theme yet and Tzeentch intrigues me on a painting perspective... I'm colour blind to pink lol, but about the list gaming wise, it might be a hoot.

That would be a challenge.

 tinfoil wrote:
Tzeentch armies' weakness against anti-psyker armies really is crippling. Against 'nids, Eldar, and certain Space Wolves armies, mono-Tzeentch really doesn't stand a chance. For 50% of their turns in those games, Horrors will be able to do nothing but wait to be charged.

To help balance things out, I'll be trying combination Tz/Khorne lists, hoping that Khorne's anti-psychic abilities might help balance things out in games in which my Horrors and Heralds are rendered useless.

I think I'll have to try just keeping out of range of Shadow in the Warp which will be easier with the premeasuring

   
Made in us
Blood Angel Terminator with Lightning Claws






I still feel tzeentch-based daemonzilla can be brutal. Especially if you bring Fateweaver.

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Made in us
Shas'la with Pulse Carbine





Florida

carp wrote:
Perhaps I was being pessimistic and overreacting.

I assumed that the warpflame rule would be cumulative, could someone clarify whether or not that is the case? If so I guess focusing on eradicating a squad in one turn would be the best solution rather then a spray and pray approach as Xeriapt suggests.

Puscifer wrote:
I've not settled on a mono theme yet and Tzeentch intrigues me on a painting perspective... I'm colour blind to pink lol, but about the list gaming wise, it might be a hoot.

That would be a challenge.

 tinfoil wrote:
Tzeentch armies' weakness against anti-psyker armies really is crippling. Against 'nids, Eldar, and certain Space Wolves armies, mono-Tzeentch really doesn't stand a chance. For 50% of their turns in those games, Horrors will be able to do nothing but wait to be charged.

To help balance things out, I'll be trying combination Tz/Khorne lists, hoping that Khorne's anti-psychic abilities might help balance things out in games in which my Horrors and Heralds are rendered useless.

I think I'll have to try just keeping out of range of Shadow in the Warp which will be easier with the premeasuring


Warpflame FnP is cumulative and lasts for the rest of the game. It also stacks with models who already have it from their own rules/wargear. The only time it isn't a risk of giving out FnP is if you are shooting at something that doesn't have a toughness value. Vs. T4 MEQ you will be handing out feel no pain very frequently.

In order to mitigate you need to wipe the squad with shooting. Which would take multiple units of 16 horrors. So is it really worth dedicating that many units to kill a TAC squad when 1 min unit of bloodletters or daemonettes can handle them? Horrors are just objective campers now who might serve as light vehicle hunter purpose if you get lucky when rolling your powers and your opponen actually has said units to shoot at.

Look how many rolls are involved:

Roll to psychic test (could be shut down completely here).

Roll to see how many shots you get.

x12 on average Roll to hit.

Opponent gets to roll Deny the Witch (could be shut down completely here).

x7 on average Roll to wound.

x4-5 Opponent rolls saves.

If opponent lives he rolls a toughness check at the end of the phase.

If he fails then you roll a d3 wounds which ignore cover and armor (can still take invulnerable saves against)

WARPFLAME If he passes, congratulate the unit on its newfound feel no pain....

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/08 18:38:22


I play:
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Made in ca
Dour Wolf Priest with Iron Wolf Amulet






Canada

 tinfoil wrote:
Tzeentch armies' weakness against anti-psyker armies really is crippling. Against 'nids, Eldar, and certain Space Wolves armies, mono-Tzeentch really doesn't stand a chance. For 50% of their turns in those games, Horrors will be able to do nothing but wait to be charged.

To help balance things out, I'll be trying combination Tz/Khorne lists, hoping that Khorne's anti-psychic abilities might help balance things out in games in which my Horrors and Heralds are rendered useless.

The problem with Tzeentch psyker spam is that GW hasn't dealt with Runes of Warding and Runic Weapons yet, since they've nerfed pretty much every other wide-ranged psychic defense option pretty hard. I imagine the Eldar will be taken care of in the next few months, but after that it'll should be a least a little more viable.

   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






There is no guarantee they will nerf runic weapons or RoW, they nerfed hoods in an errata/FAQ but did nothing to these. They could leave them as is which at least for eldar kind of fits the fluff and I could see them being built as dominating the psychic part of the game
   
Made in gb
The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK

Pony_law wrote:
There is no guarantee they will nerf runic weapons or RoW, they nerfed hoods in an errata/FAQ but did nothing to these. They could leave them as is which at least for eldar kind of fits the fluff and I could see them being built as dominating the psychic part of the game


No, they nerfed hoods in the new BRB. At least in comparison to what they were. The FAQ merely instructed the player to use the BRB entry in place of their codex, which was fairly self evident, but needed to be said to stop "those" players arguing against it.

It would be difficult to completely overhaul faction specific wargear via an FAQ, which is what was needed, so it is reasonable to assume that they will get rejigged in their own updates.

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[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

 schadenfreude wrote:
Horrors are fantastic at objective camping now. Heralds have divination. Tzeentch is great as long as you don't go past those 2 expectations.

Getting the re-roll 1s on all saves does make them pretty great at objective camping. Going to Ground in area? 3+ with re-roll of 1s. GtG behind an Aegis? 2+ re-rollable.

You definitely don't want to use Warp Flame on units with FNP, unless it's just to finish off the last couple of models. The Blasted Standard is also quite a nice addition for only 10pts.

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Made in ca
Dour Wolf Priest with Iron Wolf Amulet






Canada

 azreal13 wrote:
Pony_law wrote:
There is no guarantee they will nerf runic weapons or RoW, they nerfed hoods in an errata/FAQ but did nothing to these. They could leave them as is which at least for eldar kind of fits the fluff and I could see them being built as dominating the psychic part of the game


No, they nerfed hoods in the new BRB. At least in comparison to what they were. The FAQ merely instructed the player to use the BRB entry in place of their codex, which was fairly self evident, but needed to be said to stop "those" players arguing against it.

It would be difficult to completely overhaul faction specific wargear via an FAQ, which is what was needed, so it is reasonable to assume that they will get rejigged in their own updates.

I don't know why GW does things the way that they do (eg, FAQ Kharn with an unwieldy weapon 1 month before releasing a new Codex where he went back to striking at initiative), but they seem to be only interested in balancing out units in new Codices (eg, no Vendetta price change in Death from the Skies). You can be sure that, when they're updated, the range on Runes of Warding and Runic Weapons will be vastly limited, if they even keep the same effects.

   
Made in us
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General





Beijing, China

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
 tinfoil wrote:
Tzeentch armies' weakness against anti-psyker armies really is crippling. Against 'nids, Eldar, and certain Space Wolves armies, mono-Tzeentch really doesn't stand a chance. For 50% of their turns in those games, Horrors will be able to do nothing but wait to be charged.

To help balance things out, I'll be trying combination Tz/Khorne lists, hoping that Khorne's anti-psychic abilities might help balance things out in games in which my Horrors and Heralds are rendered useless.

The problem with Tzeentch psyker spam is that GW hasn't dealt with Runes of Warding and Runic Weapons yet, since they've nerfed pretty much every other wide-ranged psychic defense option pretty hard. I imagine the Eldar will be taken care of in the next few months, but after that it'll should be a least a little more viable.


looks like rune priests are here to stay

Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++  
   
Made in us
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets






Connecticut

The trick is you need to make sure you bring enough fire to kill what your shooting at.
I played a game and had 1 unit of horrors + herald. I either shot them at vehicles, or at FMCs. In the first case, the warpfire was irrelevant. In the second case I delivered enough shots to kill the DP.
Even with a deny the witch roll, one squad pumping out 6d6 STR 6 shots, rerolling misses is a lot of shooting.
   
Made in us
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle




First off: mono god lists were never competitive in daemons.

Second, severely mixing your army is what they want you to do because every god has their weakness. Same with any army. You don't see people playing entirely with plasmaguns or entirely melta. You need different tools for different jobs.

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