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 Manchu wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
GW sales are tumbling?

They are indeed, or have you not been reading their own publicly available financial reports?

You mean like the 2012 Annual Report showing sales higher than previous to the 2011 drop? The one with this graph?

That is total revenue ... not adjusted to inflation ... not adjusted to prices rising up to 50-100% (including Metal-toFincast price hike), with compulsory sales of about 900 pots of paint in April 2012 to almost every GW retailer on earth.
Meaning less boxes/blisters sold each year. That's what we mean by flat or declining sales.

 Kroothawk wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
GW sales are tumbling?

They are indeed, or have you not been reading their own publicly available financial reports?

You mean like the 2012 Annual Report showing sales higher than previous to the 2011 drop? The one with this graph?

That is total revenue ... not adjusted to inflation ... not adjusted to prices rising up to 50-100% (including Metal-toFincast price hike), with compulsory sales of about 900 pots of paint in April 2012 to almost every GW retailer on earth.
Meaning less boxes/blisters sold each year. That's what we mean by flat or declining sales.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/inflation-cpi

Inflation was only over 4% for one month during 2012. Sales rose nearly 8 million LBs. They increased by 6.5% against less than 4% inflation. That is an increase.

Selling less models is actually beneficial. They've sold less inventory at a higher price.

I swear people are looking for a way to claim GW is actually falling apart.

Manchu wrote: No, all I need is sales in terms of money. The claim was sales were tumbling. The statement is not supported by the evidence cited.

Very well, lets revise the claim to sales volume is declining. The uptick can be largely credited to revenue from royalties. This would suggest that, after an increases in prices, and a similar performance in sales in terms by monetary value, falling sales volume.

I dunno if that is what you're seeing here or not. No sales by volume data on a cursory glance of the report.

Also, it'd be good to look at where the company is investing, as that's a favorite of shoddy management types who like to show profits and jump ship; however, I'm on my phone, and not scrolling through with my gakky reader app.

I'd also like to say, I'm in no way endorsing the position Kirby et. al. are shoddy business types seeking to sink gw. Expanding into the video game markets, and the pace of releases might suggest otherwise, but actual research would be required to substantiate that claim either way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and I imagine releasing sixth was good for business too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I disagree with the less models is better claim as well. Without knowledge on the expense of producing plastic, I would assume greater sales by volume as a sign of am increasing market share. Or something financy.

I guess we're done talking about Tau in this thread then?

 CpatTom wrote:

Manchu wrote: No, all I need is sales in terms of money. The claim was sales were tumbling. The statement is not supported by the evidence cited.

Very well, lets revise the claim to sales volume is declining. The uptick can be largely credited to revenue from royalties. This would suggest that, after an increases in prices, and a similar performance in sales in terms by monetary value, falling sales volume.

I dunno if that is what you're seeing here or not. No sales by volume data on a cursory glance of the report.

Also, it'd be good to look at where the company is investing, as that's a favorite of shoddy management types who like to show profits and jump ship; however, I'm on my phone, and not scrolling through with my gakky reader app.

I'd also like to say, I'm in no way endorsing the position Kirby et. al. are shoddy business types seeking to sink gw. Expanding into the video game markets, and the pace of releases might suggest otherwise, but actual research would be required to substantiate that claim either way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and I imagine releasing sixth was good for business too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I disagree with the less models is better claim as well. Without knowledge on the expense of producing plastic, I would assume greater sales by volume as a sign of am increasing market share. Or something financy.

Yes, 6th probably was very good for business.

The cost of plastic is not the only expensive in producing plastic. There are machine hours, cost of labor, etc to consider.

We would need a more detailed report on their finances to assess this accurately though. This is all conjecture other than the fact GW's profits increased from 2011 to 2012.

 Breotan wrote:
I guess we're done talking about Tau in this thread then?

Tau will be good for business too

Tau will add a great number of Skyfire to my marines. Then i can focus on other things like using my flyer as an harassment rather then anti flyer.

The Tau of the Oi'kyse unified corp do not ally with other armies..other armies ally With the Tau of Oi'kyse.

that being said, I have a new found drive to work on my minis, and get reay for some cool new models to work on...already planning my conversions/upgrades for the riptides, and sunsharks, gonna be fun times.

I'm back to painting a commissioned blood angels force to help pay for some new tau stuff.

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
that being said, I have a new found drive to work on my minis, and get reay for some cool new models to work on...already planning my conversions/upgrades for the riptides, and sunsharks, gonna be fun times.

I'm trying to get excited about this almost in-spite of GW but it's not working too well, lol.

"Oh, joy, instead of getting awesome Roberto Cirillo-designed crisis suits I get to try my hand at converting the old ones again. But in a couple more months I won't be able to get the bits I need for that anymore."

"I must have that badass Farsight model...but I really hope I don't have to call customer service multiple times to get a good cast."

"The new pathfinders are alright, but I already have a bunch of the metal ones I'm not using, and if they compete with flyers then they may not be worth using anyway."

And of course, "feth, I don't think I'm skilled enough to build a flyer completely out of plasticard...maybe it'll be fun trying though."

Way to be pessimistic. Be happy tau are getting an update.
I just hope there are units in the codex that they are not releaseing yet.

I guess I dont really have those concerns Sidstyler , I have already settled on a conversion style for my battlesuits I am quite happy with, and it uses parts that will always be available or are made from plastic card.

I have never had any interest in Farsight, never liked the fluff, or the model, or his rules, but will give the new take on him a try.

I can always add more pathfinders to my force, since I long ago exceeded even 3 force orgs worth of them.

And the Tau flyer I think will be better looking in hand and with a few out of box construction changes I am planning.

I just have adapted along time ago that GW will generally match about 40-60% of my desired looks on the models..I will do the rest, it became one of my favorite parts of the hobby.

I never converted that many of them, I think the most I did was make a knee pad for one model and maybe clip the ear off one or two heads. What I really went to town with were my broadsides, which were based on some stuff I saw online...most likely Tael from ATT since that's almost where everyone gets their inspiration from, lol. They used SM dreadnought parts to up-armor the legs, extra toes for the feet so all three were planted on the ground, two missile pods glued together in a burst cannon drum for back-mounted SMS and gluing the railguns to the arms, naturally.

I was never all that inspired to convert all my suits since I knew they would get replaced with the next update anyway, so I figured I would just wait and buy like 15 of the new ones. And now we've all seen how that went, so...

I'll be curious to see what you do with the flyer, personally. I want to see how creative people get with that because I keep looking at it and think "feth it, not worth it!", myself. If I see a convincing enough conversion I might change my tune, but I'm still not happy about this growing trend of GW releasing models that pretty much have to be customized in order to be acceptable. Even the people who do like the model are almost all going to be clipping the rails/booms off it seems.

just for referance..


the first changes (based on actual construction of course) will be the changing of the rear stabilizers, inverting them into a upward gull wing postion, with a slight downward initial angle so they do not set to high on the model.

I will have to see what purpose the struts serve, and make a call on those but likely they will be removed.

I may lengthen or extend the nose section and make a more compact weapon mount for the chin weapons, something that looks like it belongs on a high speed fight/bomber.

And will have to wait and see whats happening with the underside of the plane, to make a call on that as well.

 Amaya wrote:
-snip-

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/inflation-cpi

Inflation was only over 4% for one month during 2012. Sales rose nearly 8 million LBs. They increased by 6.5% against less than 4% inflation. That is an increase.

Selling less models is actually beneficial. They've sold less inventory at a higher price.

I swear people are looking for a way to claim GW is actually falling apart.

I hate to drag this up again but GW are falling apart. They are making more money by selling less units at a higher price but they can't do that forever, there will be a point where there may be people still willing to pay those prices but they won't because no one else in their area will so they won't be able to get a game in.
If they increased by 2.5% after taking inflation into account good for them. They are doing better than in '08. Back in 02/03 they were growing by 10-15%.
And most importantly there are other companies in the market now who are growing by a lot more that 2% and are already starting to challenge GW for the top spot.



Back on topic: I know that all tau suits are a little top heavy but am I the only one who thinks that the riptide should not be able to stand on those legs (from a visual design point of view, not a modeling point of view)?

via MajorWesJanson on Warseer
Firewarriors are still 4 to a frame, so they will still probably remain 6-12. Kroot could maybe get a little larger, say 12-24. Pathfinders 4-8 don't work anymore, so we will likely see them go from 4-8 to either 5-10 or 6-12, so you don't have spares in a box. Stealthsuit boxes are 3 per, so if they do increase the size, I'd expect 3-9. Crisis suits are also now 3 per box, but I don't expect their unit size to increase, unless maybe Farsight bumps their max size up.

 jonolikespie wrote:

 Amaya wrote:
-snip-

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/inflation-cpi

Inflation was only over 4% for one month during 2012. Sales rose nearly 8 million LBs. They increased by 6.5% against less than 4% inflation. That is an increase.

Selling less models is actually beneficial. They've sold less inventory at a higher price.

I swear people are looking for a way to claim GW is actually falling apart.

I hate to drag this up again but GW are falling apart. They are making more money by selling less units at a higher price but they can't do that forever, there will be a point where there may be people still willing to pay those prices but they won't because no one else in their area will so they won't be able to get a game in.
If they increased by 2.5% after taking inflation into account good for them. They are doing better than in '08. Back in 02/03 they were growing by 10-15%.
And most importantly there are other companies in the market now who are growing by a lot more that 2% and are already starting to challenge GW for the top spot.

You make no sense. Of course they're not growing by 10-15%, there are other companies to challenge them now. As for the assertion that others are already starting to challenge GW for the top spot; I can't even find an annual report for Mantic or Privateer Press. The "falling apart" assertion is clearly hyperbole, especially seeing as they're increasing profits.

 Kroothawk wrote:

That is total revenue ... not adjusted to inflation ... not adjusted to prices rising up to 50-100% (including Metal-toFincast price hike), with compulsory sales of about 900 pots of paint in April 2012 to almost every GW retailer on earth.
Meaning less boxes/blisters sold each year. That's what we mean by flat or declining sales.

Yes, the paint range change artificially bumped up their revenue last year, without it they would have collapsed.

Year before that, it was Dark Eldar release. And year before that, it was Fantasy 8th edition. And year before that, it was something else, can't remember.

GW must be luckiest company on Earth. They are always on verge of collapse, but some individual big sales bump happens and lifts them up from doldrums.

It's almost if it was planned.

Now, back to Tau. I'd like to point out that...err...we haven't had any new pics or rumours for a week. Highly unusual. If somebody has access to codex/WD and can post stuff, they usually keep expanding on what they have already released. Now, nothing. Almost makes you want to put tinfoil hat on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:

the first changes (based on actual construction of course) will be the changing of the rear stabilizers, inverting them into a upward gull wing postion, with a slight downward initial angle so they do not set to high on the model.

I will have to see what purpose the struts serve, and make a call on those but likely they will be removed.

I may lengthen or extend the nose section and make a more compact weapon mount for the chin weapons, something that looks like it belongs on a high speed fight/bomber.

I wouldn't touch that thing with 3 metre pole (viva la metric system) but if someone put a gun on my temple, I'd consider pretty much same thing. Of course I'd have to see the model in person first, but initial plan would be remove the struts, maybe invert the tailplanes (but tail boom is very high, it might make the tail too high?), and clip the wings. Maybe put either some sweep, or reverse sweep, something to make it more aggressive. And maybe also do something about the nose, but that might be too much effort. And under no circumstances to put that stupid missile pod on top of the tail.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:

 Amaya wrote:
-snip-

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/inflation-cpi

Inflation was only over 4% for one month during 2012. Sales rose nearly 8 million LBs. They increased by 6.5% against less than 4% inflation. That is an increase.

Selling less models is actually beneficial. They've sold less inventory at a higher price.

I swear people are looking for a way to claim GW is actually falling apart.

I hate to drag this up again but GW are falling apart. They are making more money by selling less units at a higher price but they can't do that forever, there will be a point where there may be people still willing to pay those prices but they won't because no one else in their area will so they won't be able to get a game in.
If they increased by 2.5% after taking inflation into account good for them. They are doing better than in '08. Back in 02/03 they were growing by 10-15%.
And most importantly there are other companies in the market now who are growing by a lot more that 2% and are already starting to challenge GW for the top spot.

You make no sense. Of course they're not growing by 10-15%, there are other companies to challenge them now. As for the assertion that others are already starting to challenge GW for the top spot; I can't even find an annual report for Mantic or Privateer Press. The "falling apart" assertion is clearly hyperbole, especially seeing as they're increasing profits.

They are increasing profits by cutting costs, not by selling things. Sales are decreasing just as fast as they raise prices but they are moving to one man stores, shutting down GW Australia as a corporate entity (apparently) and things like that.
Everything points to the fact that they are squeezing everything they can to keep profitable for the SHORT TERM. As for not being able to find annual reports for other companies, they are not publicly traded, but Warmachine has surpassed warhammer fantasy and is 2nd most played tabletop game in the US and their playerbase is growing strong while GW seem to be stagnant. So yes, PP are defiantly challenging GW for top spot.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:

via MajorWesJanson on Warseer
Firewarriors are still 4 to a frame, so they will still probably remain 6-12. Kroot could maybe get a little larger, say 12-24. Pathfinders 4-8 don't work anymore, so we will likely see them go from 4-8 to either 5-10 or 6-12, so you don't have spares in a box. Stealthsuit boxes are 3 per, so if they do increase the size, I'd expect 3-9. Crisis suits are also now 3 per box, but I don't expect their unit size to increase, unless maybe Farsight bumps their max size up.

As if the sprue to Codex conclusion ever made sense with GW. Otherwise you would have to conclude:
"No more single Crisis Suits allowed, not even for HQ!"

 Kroothawk wrote:

As if the sprue to Codex conclusion ever made sense with GW. Otherwise you would have to conclude:
"No more single Crisis Suits allowed, not even for HQ!"

HQ gets its own Finecast suit, right? I fully expect Crisis team size to be 3+.

So, no new rumors but countless pages of people wrangling about what designation the Riptide should be, corporate mismanagement and other non-topic matters. The mods are asleep at the wheel on this one.

Wolfnid420 wrote:
This ^^ is what i was afraid......hey lemme get some broadsides for allies.....or riptides.....lol thats one gripe i guess i have with allies list......i am tau....i dont want to fight tau when im clearly fighting chaos or gk everywhere else on the board lol hopefully it wont happen every game......

The strange thing is I have absolutely no problem with good conversions to fit the models together as a coherent force. I know it's not fair or reasonable at all, but if I was to see a marine army with three broadsides I would feel like I'm up against a powergamer, but if I was to see a marine army with three 'light dreadnaughts with Imperial rail weaponry' I would applaud the owner for their creativity. Both armies are utilizing the same allies to strengthen weakpoints in their primary army list, but my opinion about it can vary drastically simply on the effort put into modeling.

Overall, I'm a fan of allied detachments because they allow such great conversion opportunities. As someone had mentioned on this thread already, if Kroot are completely absent from the Tau codex I plan on fielding Kroot counts-as Orks with Tau allies. The aesthetics will be in line with the fluff, and the armies actually complement each other quite well.

 agnosto wrote:
So, no new rumors but countless pages of people wrangling about what designation the Riptide should be, corporate mismanagement and other non-topic matters. The mods are asleep at the wheel on this one.

You're right, let's talk about forum moderation standards instead!

I personally like that discussions on Dakka are, for the most part, allowed flow organically without some power tripping douche feeding his fragile ego by deleting any line of thought that reaches beyond the scope of the thread title. For people who like that sort of thing, there's always Warseer.

 Kingsley wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:
As for whether it's working; is it? I don't remember the rumour threads being any shorter back when info was less scarce, nor was anyone less excited by new releases

If GW can get the same level of discussion and excitement without leaking things, why would they bother to have previews?

Because it fosters goodwill with the community, potentially increasing their volume? Because it allows people on lower incomes to plan their purchases better, meaning they make more purchases, potentially increasing their volume? Not every benefit is direct or immediately tangible, and it's "why would we bother" short-termist thinking like that you are espousing that's got GW into the situation its in today; declining volume, stagnant growth figures, indifferent to poor coverage in the financial press, and competitors snapping at their heels. Impulse purchasing behaviour only works on most people when the item is small and inexpensive, that's why shops put all the wee cheap nick-nacks or sweets and what have you at the tills, while the big-ticket items are on the shelves; if relying on impulse buys for expensive items is so effective, why is it not standard across highstreet retail?

Look at the game industry, the fastest growing entertainment media; constant WiP articles, previews, dev-diaries. Most games have a release window that is known a year or more in advance, the exact date is typically known at least a couple of months in advance, and by the time the release date is known there are already going to be dozens of articles and developer interviews in the gaming press. Again, if telling people absolutely nothing about the contents of the product until 7 days before release was so effective, why are more companies not operating that way?

 Manchu wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
GW sales are tumbling?

They are indeed, or have you not been reading their own publicly available financial reports?

You mean like the 2012 Annual Report showing sales higher than previous to the 2011 drop? The one with this graph?

 Yodhrin wrote:
if restricting information is working so well for GW, why are they selling less and less units every year?

I guess you can rethink this rhetoric. Honestly, public relations documents don't have the kind of data we need to say that rumor lock downs drive or even support sales of models. But we aren't really talking about models, remember?

Or how about this one, which uses inflation-adjusted figures;



Or even better, how about instead of pointing at one graph and being snarky, you pop over to this thread and examine the figures as a whole, with handy analysis by someone who knows what they're on about.

 Yodhrin wrote:
Again, if telling people absolutely nothing about the contents of the product until 7 days before release was so effective, why are more companies not operating that way?

Well, when a movie or computer game sequel comes out, it doesn't make the first one unwatchable or unplayable. I'm sure, somewhere in the world this week, a poor sod is going to purchase a Tau codex and some Pathfinders- product that wouldn't have been sold if everyone had been aware of a new Tau release date for the past several months.

I'm probably going to use some of my leftover guardsmen to put some Gue'vesa in my Fire Warrior squads.

Really looking forward to the new T'au'dex.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 agnosto wrote:
So, no new rumors but countless pages of people wrangling about what designation the Riptide should be, corporate mismanagement and other non-topic matters. The mods are asleep at the wheel on this one.

You're right, let's talk about forum moderation standards instead!

I personally like that discussions on Dakka are, for the most part, allowed flow organically without some power tripping douche feeding his fragile ego by deleting any line of thought that reaches beyond the scope of the thread title. For people who like that sort of thing, there's always Warseer.

Nice way to become agitated by an innocent comment. News and Rumors is usually one of the most heavily moderated areas on Dakka with threads that become grossly off-topic being moved to another area; that's the truth and though there is nothing wrong with discussing the things that are being pondered in this thread, little of what is being discussed is either news or rumor.

If you want to talk corporate governance, you could go to the thread where those charts above came from... http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/515615.page

No, you're right; it's better to be "organic" and keep reposting things over and over throughout the board. Somehow I thought that was called "spamming"but I guess it's just organic.

 Yodhrin wrote:
Or how about this one, which uses inflation-adjusted figures;

Thanks, searching for this table for quite some time.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 agnosto wrote:
So, no new rumors but countless pages of people wrangling about what designation the Riptide should be, corporate mismanagement and other non-topic matters. The mods are asleep at the wheel on this one.

You're right, let's talk about forum moderation standards instead!

I personally like that discussions on Dakka are, for the most part, allowed flow organically without some power tripping douche feeding his fragile ego by deleting any line of thought that reaches beyond the scope of the thread title. For people who like that sort of thing, there's always Warseer.

Yeah, the argument whether GW is going under or not is organic. Just like a weed that seems to crop up in nearly every thread having anything to do with GW, with the seeds sown and tended by the same group of gardeners. However since I'm pretty sure I saw a mod with a hoe earlier in the thread I guess all you can do is skim until there is some more actual news

Oops, can't forget an obligatory "OT" fig leaf. Hmm, lets see... Oh yeah, can't wait to blow up my first Riptide

edited: spelling