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 Cyporiean wrote:

 Zygrot24 wrote:
So my biggest gripe from the game the other day was how shut down my army felt because I had NOTHING to counter the TS of the vizier. Everything he hit with mirage had, at best, about a 1/5 chance of resisting, some lower. You guys made good points about why that is okay; Vizier has exceptional TS, still need LOS. Those are good points, but I think it's worth noting that I was being hit with Lvl 1 mirage. At higher levels the vizier can use my own models to attack allies, and then lose their activation. It'd be a big deal if I was fighting, essentially, one full unit down every turn.

Mirage is going to be hit with the nerf bat slightly, it'll no longer allow you to Rush the target at Rank 1.

While the Vizier is a beast at TS, his VY is only 4 with 3 AR.. so he'll go down pretty easily.

Which involves getting to him, which wasn't happening for me. Neither badgers, nor cannons were happening because of him. But that's nothing to do with the rules and just how things went for me.

I'm working on a modified list and totally pumped for the next game. Who's traveling down to play next, eh?!

 Zygrot24 wrote:
Who's traveling down to play next, eh?!

I think its time for Alf to drive down.

 Cyporiean wrote:

 Zygrot24 wrote:
Who's traveling down to play next, eh?!

I think its time for Alf to drive down.

Make it so!

 Cyporiean wrote:

 Zygrot24 wrote:
Who's traveling down to play next, eh?!

I think its time for Alf to drive down.

You gonna pay for my gas and hotel to get between Ohio and Florida? Hows about I let people beat me at GenCon

Watching as your opponent controls your units is the most painful to watch in any game.

 Alfndrate wrote:
Hows about I let people beat me at GenCon

You're supposed to do that anyway!

 Cyporiean wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
Hows about I let people beat me at GenCon

You're supposed to do that anyway!

Excellent! Status Quo and what not! Employee of the Month

 miskatonicalum wrote:
Models do not count as being dead when they move to their second profile. Only after being slain in their second profile, or in Luca's case if Lucky Star is still in effect, do they give their kill points to the opponent.

I don't remember if the book mentions this.

But that's still not fair, no? If you take down a 30 resource Valkyr but the Pilot survives, you get no points for it. I'd suggest that if only the first half of a dual-profiled unit will gets destroyed, then some amount of it's resource cost should be considered lost even if the other part survives. In campaign you could pay the difference to enlist the model again. That would be so cool...

Back to Luca's Lucky Star It would be much more elegant if Lucky Star would get lost when Luca attacks or contests an objective.

There's a typo on Luca's page. Luca is a girl yes? If so, Lucky Star refers to her as he.

It doesn't mention it, but it will.


The second profile is weaker than the first and the cost compensates for having a second set of VY.

Look at it as if you knocked the model down to half health and their stays got debuffed as a result. Taking a badger at claw down to half health doesn't give points. These models don't either.

Lucky Star and the other "immune to damage" rules will get updated to include contesting objectives turning them off. Good idea.

Yes, Luca da Vacanti is the female rifle-mouse from the "Hunter and the Thief in the Night" short story on our website. I'll see that her rules reflect that.

Yeah, from that perspective, it looks logical.



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Allright, part 3...

Ribenguo

Daimyo - Bushido (All rank) - Squad, models in target squad confusion. (Rank 5) - Does this grants the Daimyo a free activation for counterstrike? Or Anti-charge? This charge can only happen past the Daimyo's activation when the Daimyo needs an activation to react to the charge.
- Bishamonten(ranks 1, 2 and 4) - is that additional attacks to the attack set, or additional attack sets?
- Zen (rank 3) - I think that's a full free activation at this point. by the way, on rank 1, if target squad can perform any Heroic or Tactical action, is this allows them to do so?
- Kagemusha(and equipment list) - Not the full name of the attendant models are used. Might worth using the full name of the models, no?

Kunoichi - Water Ninpo (All ranks) - Squad confusion (rank 2), it's not clear if Heavy/Light Cavalry also gets lost or not. (Also, I would like to point out that on Rank 4, the wording is "every model in target squad" as here with the current terminology -as far as I see - would be clear with "target squad" only. Not so much for the other 3 ranks where "models in target squad" should be used. The difference being Poison is an instant effect so the rearrangement of squads is not an issue, while with "target squad's next activation" it is.)
- Fire Ninpo - This ability would also need some rules for ambushing in mid-turn.
- Smoke And Mirrors - It is not clear if these extra Kunoichi is free to ambush anywhere the player wants them to, or they have some restrictions. Do these mirror images has influence range? What about items?

Amamimoto the Ronin - Too drunk to care - Isn't this would be more elegant if he would be immune to Tactical and Heroic actions? Also, isn't all Heroic actions target friendly models now?

Kawauso no Yoshitsune - Kyujutsu - Isn't that supposed to be 5 attack sets?

Wolf of Mibu - Kenjutsu - Attacks or attack sets?

Armory:
Turtle Formation - is that resource total? As a mantlet would come in after you spend 50/20/30 for example, or after you spend 100/100/100?

Kusarigama - is this a ranged weapon with ant-charge? What is this supposed to be anyway? (I guess it's sickle and chain, but if you don't know, the book will not help you.) The book is very vague about weapons that are both ranged and melee. How you change them between melee and ranged phase? Can you do that?


Page 6 - Armor Piercing - This block should also mention that Exemplars or Heroes can elect their AP to the squad before the highest most common.

Page 23 - Influence Range - Influence range is not an unique hero ability. It should be in the common abilities section.

The Kernish Terrier and the Shaka War-Hog has Javelin and no melee weapon. (well, the war-hog has, but I don't think that's counts right now). As Javelin is now a ranged weapon and so it cannot been used if the model starts it's turn in b2b with enemy models or in melee.

These models should get a melee weapon, no?

Javelins have the "pilum" special rule, if you look on page 28, it describes Pilum:

Pilum - This weapon may be used as a Melee Weapon with +1 DE in the Melee Phase.

So yes, they do have melee weapons.

Scyzantine

Monitor of the Sands - Dust Djinn (All ranks), squad confusion (Rank 1) How long this lasts?
- Visionary - Squad confusion
- Boons - It is not mentionned

Vizier - Patrician - (Rank 4) Since Hyperian Fire is not gets removed, this can get out of hand easily.
- Desert Zephyr - (all ranks) Squad confusion.

Mwanza Kabir Grand Vizier to Varanus Shadows in the Dune - Can this two Assasins be replaced with other assasins when they die?

Hassan Kusuuf - Nightshade - This is really two ability.

Adwaita Engineer - Walls of Agaminople - "full squad" is only used in the page of the Gopher engineer and the Adwaita engineer and never get's defined. I think it refers to the squad limit, so that is two models in both cases. I think the term is worth a definition anyway. (A squad is a full squad if the number of activated models excluding the exemplars and heroes is the highest possible based on the unit type)

Mammaluke - Blood Tax - I believe it would be more clear as something like: "as their movement they can only move towards the nearest table edge and when charged they can only flee as a charge reaction." What happens if they move down from the table? When this ability triggers is there a point to continue the game? Isn't would be more elegant if when this triggers then it is considered as all Scyzantine units are destroyed and that's it? Or simply: " These models do not count toward the Scyzantine army in terms of determining victory points. If there is only these models on the map from this army it counts as the army has no models in play."


Armory:
Whip - another ranged and melee weapon. This might be re-worded as the ax-pistol for example.


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 Alfndrate wrote:
Javelins have the "pilum" special rule, if you look on page 28, it describes Pilum:

Pilum - This weapon may be used as a Melee Weapon with +1 DE in the Melee Phase.

So yes, they do have melee weapons.

That's not too reader friendly. I suggest to be reworded as the axe-pistol and get rid of Pilum as a weapon ability altogether. Nothing else uses it anyways.

Then it's something that can certainly be changed, but you said they had no melee weapons, I said they do . Gotta read the weapon descriptions if you think all they have is one or the other. It took me 5 seconds to hit ctrl + f and typed in javelin, and then did it again and typed in pilum. Information in seconds!.

But I'm sure a rewording is not impossible, it's up to misk and cyp though

I botched that one.
What is the take on both ranged and melee weapons? I see that the Kunai is now a ranged only weapon and the units got a dagger as it's melee counterpart while other ranged-melee weapons like the Axe Pistol is getting these dual-definitions.


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Vandalands

Hedge Knight - Routed (All Ranks) - Squad confusion. (Rank 4) even on "all units in target squad" this ability can get weird.
- Kingsguard - Any model? even Valkyrs? (that sounds so cool).

Warlord - Sabotage(Rank 2 and up) Squad confusion
- Blade Spin - (Rank 4) - It's not really this but I thought template attacks are also Ranged attacks. However this might change that. This ability allows the warlord to somehow let a cannonball fly trough him if he is right next to the enemy. This should also works with Flame Cannons then? That is a friendly ranged attack too, no?
- Lordly Caliber -Squad confusion

Arctos Nevsky - Ragnarock - It should be "when all Hamster Berserkers and Viklanders are slain", no?

Gotz von Federwerk - Luca's Read Your Contract should be Federwerk's ability in the same way as his part of Technology Exchange is.

Protoype Valkyr Mk.II - Loadout - The MK.II is limited to 3 then?
- Knight - units in the squad with Held Shields can Brace, or is it gives the ability to the squad to brace without a held shield?
Also, the text sometimes uses "MK.II", other times "MKII".


I think the armory page should be or should also be before the model sheets as it contains the army spec. rule and the weapon descriptions you are reading at the model sheet pages, and if you reading trough the book you run into these names and have no idea what do they mean or where will they be specified.


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Zabar

Zabaran Chieftain - Impatient Reign - Is there any reason this is worded differently as the Scyzantine equivalent of this ability?
- Welcome to the Jungle(all ranks) squad confusion.

Loxadon, King of Zabar - Emissary of the Sky Empire - that "be made" really should be in the next line.

Pride Lioness - Jungle Queen(all ranks) -here comes the question of what exactly a terrain piece is. If this is a non-modular terrain that happens to have a big river that is not consist of any piece, how is this works? Or it is built from modular river parts but still is one river.

The Old Lady - Heartless Murder - This ability mentions the model's max VY but these type of abilities don't do that.

Hyena Witch Doctor - Bloodlust - squad confusion

Soqotran Corsair - Buccaneer - It is not clear as the pistol is 3 attack sets or 3 attacks instead of 1 in it's melee attack set after the charge. Or it is 3 attacks per pistol in the ranged phase before the charge.

Armory
Scope - Isn't this would be more clear if this would be replaced with "Scoped Rifle - 30” Range, 3 DE, 1 AP, 2 HD, Rifling" ?

When a ranged attack hits your squad of the Marmot Medic, you are interrupting the damage distribution with First Aid rolls. Also it can create a weird logical error when he saves the last model with this roll. In this case the saved unit is protected by the Medic's First Aid Skill and the Medic is protected by his Non-Combatant ability, and suddenly a lot of damage is just vanishes in the void.

Secondary if you roll lucky with the First Aid rolls, you can create a lot of 1VY protected models. Also, the damage priority rules do not exclude models that you cannot assign damage on. This is just a little thing but the rules are loose here.

Since the models gain protection from First aid, I believe it would be more clear if First Aid would work like this: "At the end of Ranged/Melee phase where this squad was the defender and the Medic is not slain, you can roll one d10 for every model slain in this phase. If the result is 8+, return that model."

Also, non-combatant should be: "This model cannot been attacked directly until this model is the only model in it's squad..."

The same problem comes up with Viklanders, Tanuki Samurais and models that are able to have an activation when they are reduced to 0VY. They activations disturb the damage distribution. A Viklander gains a full activation in the middle of the damage distribution. Good luck remembering where was you after that. It would be much more error proof if these activations would happen after the phase they got slain. Maybe you coluld activate your two slain Viklanders as a squad.

Something else...

Direct and Indirect attacks are becoming a thing now, so I believe the book should mention this two, and say what is direct and what is indirect attack.

Also, the Damage Distribution in the Ranged Phase chapter mentions that an attack can cleave. I don't remember any ranged weapons that cleave. Maybe there will be some. (Boomerangs comes in mind...)

You are vastly over estimating the medic. Yes, the medic could save the last model. But on an 8+. So it's considerably more likely that the medic doesn't save it and is removed from play. Not a big deal. As for leaving a lot of "protected" 1 VY models? Yup, that's the idea. BUT, see next point.

As for "if you roll lucky." Yes. -if- you roll -lucky-. It isn't prudent to always plan on the small ends of the bell curve, and it's certainly not a prudent way to write rules. Anyone can luck out on rolls for anything, and in all cases it will change that game. That's the nature of dice!

At 100 F/L/G 5HL game level, I typically do 6 weasels, and maybe a musician/banner. At 8+, I'll statistically save 2.4 of the 8 models in that unit. Is 2.4 VY really that much harder to go through?

 Zygrot24 wrote:
You are vastly over estimating the medic. Yes, the medic could save the last model. But on an 8+. So it's considerably more likely that the medic doesn't save it and is removed from play. Not a big deal. As for leaving a lot of "protected" 1 VY models? Yup, that's the idea. BUT, see next point.

As for "if you roll lucky." Yes. -if- you roll -lucky-. It isn't prudent to always plan on the small ends of the bell curve, and it's certainly not a prudent way to write rules. Anyone can luck out on rolls for anything, and in all cases it will change that game. That's the nature of dice!

At 100 F/L/G 5HL game level, I typically do 6 weasels, and maybe a musician/banner. At 8+, I'll statistically save 2.4 of the 8 models in that unit. Is 2.4 VY really that much harder to go through?

The game is supposed to work in rare and unusual circumstances. There is a chance for the medic to save the last model. It is the same as saving any model. This is not about the medic being too strong or weak, it's about restructuring the ability to do the same but be much more easyer to follow. This is just my opinion of course. I believe if the medic's ability would only come into play in the end of the ranged/melee phase, it would be much more elegant.

By the way, If the medic saves a model that is slain by a Hamster Berserker, does Northern Berserkers still triggers?

Also, How short a charge can be? How far a model has to be from an other model to be able to charge?

A charge can be as short as the slightest micron of a measurement... as long as you're not already in melee (I.e. b2b)

 Alfndrate wrote:
A charge can be as short as the slightest micron of a measurement... as long as you're not already in melee (I.e. b2b)

Like the Grace Distance on b2b?

If you move next to a model during the move phase and you're like 2mm away from their base you can charge. If you have enough movement to make it base to base and you say, "I'm moving these guys into base to base" and the models arms and weapons prevent this from happening then technically you cannot charge because you explicitly said you were moving into b2b.

The First Aid roll works fine. There isn't much to it: When a model dies, roll, if 8+ put it back with 1 VY. I don't see much there to make it inelegant. All this stuff about interupting damage distribution? In your example if the squad had been killed outright all that damage would have disappeared anyhow. Also it in no way changed distribution. Distribute until a model is dead, move on. I don't see how it could be so difficult remember which model you were on distributing damage, even with models taking whole activations.

Also, why must Non-Combatant change? Think of him more like a token. Also, in the v2 rulebook pdf: "A Marmot Medic may not be directly attacked until the members of it's Squad are removed from play." That's exactly what you asked for.

By RAW interpretation, I'd say that Northern Berserkers does proc.

First aid works like tough rolls from Warmachine.

 Alfndrate wrote:
First aid works like tough rolls from Warmachine.

I was trying to not drag other system into this!

But using the grace distance and that you can charge from really short distances, you now have to mark what models are b2b with what other models, and many circumstances you will have to ask the defender if he moved his models into b2b with yours in the previrous turn.

Also, if you declare to move your model to btb with one enemy model, but it happens to get close to an other enemy model, it is questionable if you moved btb with that secound enemy model or not, as that model may even have some feature that would make you use the grace distance rule. Your model not in btb, but the grace distance might be applicalble, you never decared that you moved b2b with the secound model, and when the turn passes, you are asked if you moved your model in b2b with both models.

With having -let's say- a half inch minimum charge range it would be clear to see if you can charge for the bonus or just step into btb to attack (which you totally should have to do if you can)

@First Aid
I don't say that the current version of First Aid or Einherjar would be unusable, or even hard to use. What I'm saying, it can be more easyer than it is now.

Why, is it totally legit that the Medic can lock out damage like that?

Is there any reason why Einherjar has to activate in the middle of the phase?

Because if there is a greater reason that I don't see then I'm cool with it.

I think you're trying too hard to create improvements where none are needed. The mechanics you're picking on exist in other game systems in largely identical forms, and from personal experience, do not interrupt the flow of the game or significantly impede play between experience and knowledgeable players.

It's not constructive or useful feedback to petition to change working and functional rules and mechanics simply for the sake of changing them.

I might be, but I think I should mention these anyway. Maybe I find something that does need to be changed. And the rest can be ignored.

This topic is about feedback after all.

 WhiteRoo wrote:
But using the grace distance and that you can charge from really short distances, you now have to mark what models are b2b with what other models, and many circumstances you will have to ask the defender if he moved his models into b2b with yours in the previrous turn.

Also, if you declare to move your model to btb with one enemy model, but it happens to get close to an other enemy model, it is questionable if you moved btb with that secound enemy model or not, as that model may even have some feature that would make you use the grace distance rule. Your model not in btb, but the grace distance might be applicalble, you never decared that you moved b2b with the secound model, and when the turn passes, you are asked if you moved your model in b2b with both models.

With having -let's say- a half inch minimum charge range it would be clear to see if you can charge for the bonus or just step into btb to attack (which you totally should have to do if you can)

@First Aid
I don't say that the current version of First Aid or Einherjar would be unusable, or even hard to use. What I'm saying, it can be more easyer than it is now.

Why, is it totally legit that the Medic can lock out damage like that?

Is there any reason why Einherjar has to activate in the middle of the phase?

Because if there is a greater reason that I don't see then I'm cool with it.

Okay, now that I'm not on my phone, and can actually take the time to properly answer your question. "Grace Distance" is for you and your opponent to not be a dick. If I am 2 inches away from you, and I declare a charge. I measure the 3 inch charge first, and then move my model(s) in, if I'm attacking your 3 inch long rat raiders, then I'm going to have a hard time getting things into base contact because arms get tangled, and it creates a mess. At that point I show you, "Hey, I have enough movement to make it into base contact with models x, y, and z. okay?" I have plenty of movement, so it shouldn't be an issue. But if I am 4 inches away, and I have 5 inches of movement during my movement phase, I can move forward 4 and 15/16ths of an inch towards you, and not be in base contact. Then I can go ahead and charge you legally (since we're not in base contact). Unlike, say 40k, Brushfire does allow you to get closer than an inch to someone before declaring a charge. Here are the "melee ranges" of some popular games.
40K - Base2base for initial charging model and 2 inches from any friendly model that is base to base, all models must stay 1 inch away from enemy models before the assault phase
Malifaux - Charge is a set stat on the stat card, and you can charge as long as you're outside of your melee range (1 inch in most cases)
Warmachine/Hordes - Charge adds +3 movement to a model's speed, and you may charge as long as you're outside of melee range, but you only get the charge bonus if you move at least 3 inches.
Brushfire - Base2base melee range, if models are not in base2base, they may declare a charge.

Grace Distance has nothing to do with how far away I have to be to declare a charge, grace distance is a distance that you grant your opponent when he charges you so models don't get tangled up.

This topic is about feedback, and Zygrot was giving you feedback as well. First Aid works fine as it is, and doesn't slow down play. The 8+ Medic roll is just like a tough roll in Warmachine/Hordes or similar to an armor save in 40k/fantasy, and the Viklander's Einherjar is very similar to "Slow to Die" from Malifaux (which lets you take an action when you die).

I was going to compare it to FNP in 40k, but yes.

Also where is the confusion in charging? If you're in B2B (TOUCHING) you can't move. If you aren't, you can, and therefore you've charged.

If there is every any confusion about what is in B2B and what isn't, your opponent is a troll.