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I'd suggest to rephrase the description of the Burrow Marker to mention it's use first and how it's placed later to further emphasize what is it good for. I think currently one have to read it a few times to understand it.

Like this:

"Models may enter the table b2b with any burrow marker when they are ambushing instead of deviating, as long as no enemy model is currently b2b with that burrow marker. Burrow markers aren't placed during deployment. You can assign burrow markers to your ambushing squads during deployment (or before ambushing?). Ambush that squad as normal then place the burrow marker b2b with that squad."

Also, if burrow markers are not any kind of assault terrain, there is no point of placing the models next to the marker.. You could place the models on top of the marker. I know it's because of the fancy models, but then are they different terrain or not?

I feel its important to detail how you place a burrow marker first, as it does not end up on the table in the same fashion as other terrain (at the beginning of the game).

You place models in B2B during ambushing, just as if you were placing them in B2B with the first model of the ambushing squad after deviation.

Trenches are also terrain you can move through without penalty, but depending on the type of display piece you use, they're may be places on it where models cannot stand. The same holds true for the Burrow Marker.

I still feel like the current Burrow marker text has some problems.

-It doesn't say when do you assign your burrow markers to the ambushing squads.
-It mentions ambushing models, but squads are ambushing and not models.
-It does not implies strongly enough that burrow markers are really for squads ambushing later in the game.

And if you can't place models on it anyway, it should be marked as unstable terrain, so there would be no confusion. Unstable terrain rules apply.

Edit: nvm

With the burrow marker, it's not perfectly clear how it works, worded any way, until you see it in action. I read about it, but until I actually had some gophers and badgers come in through one, it wasn't clear.

I do remember something being mentioned that wasn't in there. Something about units can only use it to ambush on subsequent turns, and not the turn the burrow marker comes on? I might be remembering something incorrectly about that game. A lot was going on.

'Burrow Markers are held in ambush with a squad' The first line tells you its paired with a squad when they are held in ambush (At the beginning of the game, during deployment)

Individual models can ambush, you are not forced to squad up to ambush.

Squads ambushing after the squad that places the burrow marker, even on the same turn, can take advantage of the burrow marker.

As I said before its not unstable terrain. Like Trenches, which are not unstable terrain, you can place your models on a burrow marker. But the actual terrain piece you use may have literally unstable places where your models shouldn't stand because they'll fall over and get damaged. The same again goes for hills, rivers, or any other terrain. If you use a giant drill as your burrow marker, you're gonna have that issue. if you use the worm hole you will likely not have these issues.

Even on the same turn? Sweet. Now I just need to find a way to overcome the viziers higher skill...

 miskatonicalum wrote:
'Burrow Markers are held in ambush with a squad' The first line tells you its paired with a squad when they are held in ambush (At the beginning of the game, during deployment)

Well, yeah, but that is debatable.

 miskatonicalum wrote:

Individual models can ambush, you are not forced to squad up to ambush.

In a sense you are, because you move squads even if there is only one model in it. So it confuses the terminology. You can have a model in a squad, but that doesn't make them the same thing.

 miskatonicalum wrote:

As I said before its not unstable terrain. Like Trenches, which are not unstable terrain, you can place your models on a burrow marker. But the actual terrain piece you use may have literally unstable places where your models shouldn't stand because they'll fall over and get damaged. The same again goes for hills, rivers, or any other terrain. If you use a giant drill as your burrow marker, you're gonna have that issue. if you use the worm hole you will likely not have these issues.

I personally think a 30mm base that would be unstable terrain would do it great as a burrow marker, but I have to admit I kinda want the mole drill now(I'm kinda sure that is not exactly 4"x4", so the b2b thing is weird). The problem is, you have to work around what you have, and if you can't put the model on it, it is technically is the same as an unstable terrain piece. That's why I would like to suggest to mark them as unstable terrain, since a big pile of dirt is kinda that and it would solve the what-models-you-have-for-it problem.

Trenches are not the same I think since they should be stable terrain pieces as model standpoint.

The Drill Machine is around 3" in diameter IIRC, so throwing it on a 4"x4" base would solve that issue.

I'm once more taking the book apart to point out things I think should be addressed. I might mentioned some of these earlier.

Page 6 - Armor Piercing: This definition should mention that Exemplars and Heroes can promote their AP over the highest most common, as this part of the book will be read first if that question comes up.
- Activation: This definition confuses models and squads.
Page 7 - Squad: This definition doesn't mentions that one model can form a squad.
- Resources: Gold and Wood is usually listed as Wood first and Gold last.
- Rush/Rushed: It says that RS/MS/ES is zeroed out until the model's next activation. Isn't that until the end of the turn?
- Two Profile Models: This definition should mention that if the model has any banners/horns/items, the second profile will have those after the first gets destroyed.
Page 8 - Fearsome: Only Squads get charged. Mentioning of "model" is not necessary.
- Flight: There should be a disclaimer about if the bases of flying models are blocking movement or LoS, how you can move them, where you can put them and so on.
- Shock: This definition doesn't states that winning a shock test grants that squad Immune t Shock until end of turn, if this is still a rule.
- Sniper: I'd suggest to change the last half sentence "additional attacks will roll over to other Squad members as normal." to "all remaining attacks follows the normal damage stacking rules and being distributed by the defender". to indicate that the defender gets back the ability to distribute the damage.

The definition of Immediate/Free Activation to perform an Activation Phase is missing.

Question:

Fearsome - How many models have to have Fearsome to make a squad have Fearsome?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
"Model or Squad" is used a lot of times. Should I call these out if I see any?

This is an oxymoron as a single model is a squad after all if it get's activated alone or deployed alone.

 WhiteRoo wrote:
I'm once more taking the book apart to point out things I think should be addressed. I might mentioned some of these earlier.

Page 6 - Armor Piercing: This definition should mention that Exemplars and Heroes can promote their AP over the highest most common, as this part of the book will be read first if that question comes up.
- Activation: This definition confuses models and squads.

Activation: No it doesn't, models and squads activate, squads are made up of models (at least 1), models can only be activated once per turn.

Page 7 - Squad: This definition doesn't mentions that one model can form a squad.

That's covered under the Squad phase

- Rush/Rushed: It says that RS/MS/ES is zeroed out until the model's next activation. Isn't that until the end of the turn?

Nope


Tried to answer what I can, have a meeting in 5 minutes.

The part where using "model and squad" gets weird is that wording like this indicates that they are not the same thing.

Which means if an ability or an effect targets a squad, then it cannot target single models, or any squad that formed from only one model. Because if it can, it would say "target model or squad".

That means... all abilities in the book, give or take a few.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also:

"Rush - The Squad may move up to double their Speed in inches. Their base MS, RS, and ES values are reduced to 0 until the end of the turn. Measurement is made the same as Walk."

from page 13

We'll get heroes/exemps noted in the AP section, it does need to be there.

Yes, the rush effect is only till the end of the turn, not until the next activation. That will get fixed.

Two Profiles: That notation will get added.

Fearsome: A model with Fearsome has to be charged to elicit a Fearsome roll. (Some abilities give Fearsome to an entire squad.)

When we use the phrase Target Squad, it means it targets all the models in a squad. When we say Target model, we mean just a single model, whether it is in a squad with other models or not.

Flight: I'm not sure what you're asking here. Other than ignoring other models for the purposes of movement and ignoring assault failure damage, there are no additional effects.

Passing a Shock Test doesn't give immunity anymore.

 miskatonicalum wrote:

When we use the phrase Target Squad, it means it targets all the models in a squad. When we say Target model, we mean just a single model, whether it is in a squad with other models or not.

I kinda starting to see how you think about it. I'm thinking about it as the math terms of a set and the elements of the set. If you think about it like that then the book talks about the element and the set as they would be interchangeable terms, and they shoudln't be. I think you mean that a "model" is a squad with a single miniature in it.
But even so the word "model" is used as "a squad with only one miniature in it" and also for "a single miniature whitin a squad" which is not always the same thing.

So I think while the term "target model" is okay, "activating model' is not. Since you activate squads, even if that is only one model. Abilities that target squads can be used on any one-model squad, while abilities that target a model are not restricted to squads with only one model in them.

 miskatonicalum wrote:

Flight: I'm not sure what you're asking here. Other than ignoring other models for the purposes of movement and ignoring assault failure damage, there are no additional effects.

I tought models with Flight are flying and they might be not blocking LoS or can be attacked in meele since they are up in the air. But I see now the game only means it they are flying while moving and land at the end of their movement phases. So a Skyhawk Gunship is just bunnyhopping in the battlefield. It's wierd, but okay. Maybe you can land on a wall with a gunship and assault it with the units inside of it.(I don't think so, since there is no room for a gunship in a wall)

Much of our rules design comes down to trying to have interesting mechanics and concepts but without spending several pages on a mechanic that only a few people will use. Not everyone has flying models, so the rules are just simple and abstract.

People get the idea of what it does, without having to be overly complex. So yeah, anything that flies just 'bunny hops'. Silly but easy.

Keeping it simple allows for more subtle interactions with fewer complications. That's one of the things that attracts me to the Brushfire rules; there is great depth without a glut of words. I've found with BF that things are stated simply because that's how they work. Simply.

What about the model-squad thing? Calling a single-model squad a "model" is not going to get anything any simpler.

 WhiteRoo wrote:
What about the model-squad thing? Calling a single-model squad a "model" is not going to get anything any simpler.

Because on page 12 under squad phase it clearly states, "A Squad may also be a single Model" We've already clarified it.

So during your squad phase, you declare which model or squad you're activating. You can say, "I'm activating this 1 model as a squad." bam, that's all that needs to be said. You're adding complexity where it doesn't need to exist based on the idea that it needs to be clarified and "simplified".

That's what I'm saying. The book defines this but doesn't seems to use it.

On Page 6:
-Activation - The collective actions of one Model or one Squad...
-Activate Immediately - An Activation of a Model or Squad
that interrupts a current Activation...

Both should say that "squad' instead of "model or squad"

On page 7: Squad - A group of Models that activated at the same time.
As this is the definition of the term squad, this should mention that one model can form a squad as whatever is on page 12, it shouldn't redefine this definition.

Page 7 doesn't mention the limit upwards or downwards for the size of a squad. The definition is staying the way it is.

Should I mention the "model and squad" thing if I run into it later?

Dude, a single model can be a squad unto itself. It's pretty simple. If something targets a squad it can target a squad MADE OF A SINGLE MODEL, or more!

If something says it targets a MODEL it targets a single model, which is not the same thing as a SQUAD WITH ONE MODEL IN IT.

If you come upon spots where squad vs model creates balance issues in the game, such as an ability that is too powerful because it targets an entire squad, or an ability is too weak because it only targets a single model, feel free to bring it up.

 Zygrot24 wrote:
Dude, a single model can be a squad unto itself. It's pretty simple. If something targets a squad it can target a squad MADE OF A SINGLE MODEL, or more!

If something says it targets a MODEL it targets a single model, which is not the same thing as a SQUAD WITH ONE MODEL IN IT.

That's not the point here. The book says some places that you "activate a model", which is something you can't do. You may activate a squad that is only consist of one model, but you can only activate a squad, not a model. It might be nitpicking, but I would like you guys to be aware of it.


Something else:

the Chugoku Dynastic King's The Jade Seal gives a target friendly squad squad "causes Shock with their ranged attacks".

How many models have to have this effect to make the entire squad cause fear with their ranged attacks?

One model is all it takes to cause shock. If it can make the attack. Same with causing shock on charge. If the model fails to charge, it wouldn't cause shock.

I'll get a notation in Shock about that.

So what if I target a friendly squad and then regroup that squad to spread the shocking ranged attack effect to as many squads I can? It sound's a little broken.

Just the basic example, I start to activate the affected models one-by-one. Since these will be different activations, I can Shock a lot more than one squad in a turn.

 WhiteRoo wrote:
That's not the point here. The book says some places that you "activate a model", which is something you can't do. You may activate a squad that is only consist of one model, but you can only activate a squad, not a model. It might be nitpicking, but I would like you guys to be aware of it.

Then note the pages where this happens, we can discuss it but like I've already said a model may be a single man squad. You also have to take into account when it says things along the lines of a "model may activate" or "activate a model" is specifically refers to a model being activated as part of a squad (even if it's a single man squad). If I have 10 Red Wu with Crossbows, and I get charged in such a way that only 3 of my models are affected, I can choose to activate those models only, get my charge reaction (they won't move) and fire into the charging squad. Now on my activation, I can activate the other 7 as a squad, but I cannot activate those 3, even though they're within cohesion. That's when it means when it says things like "activate a model" or a "model may activate", etc...

As to making sure we're aware of it, you obviously are as we don't see as much of an issue with it as you're making it out to be.

The highest HM of troops in the Chugoku army is a 3; Kau Lung Police. They don't have a ranged weapon.

The CCG have a HM of 1 and a squad limit of 10. At most, you could get 10 shock tests, out of them but with only a HM of 1. Good rolls could see that being successful, but then you're really wasting their crossbows when they could be killing stuff.

The Lem Han have an HM of 2, squad limit of 10, and they have to buy their ranged weapon.

This is balanced out by the August Warrior's army rule, allowing them to reroll failed HM rolls.

So yes, you can do this, but its not overly powerful as is.

 miskatonicalum wrote:
The highest HM of troops in the Chugoku army is a 3; Kau Lung Police. They don't have a ranged weapon.

The CCG have a HM of 1 and a squad limit of 10. At most, you could get 10 shock tests, out of them but with only a HM of 1. Good rolls could see that being successful, but then you're really wasting their crossbows when they could be killing stuff.

The Lem Han have an HM of 2, squad limit of 10, and they have to buy their ranged weapon.

This is balanced out by the August Warrior's army rule, allowing them to reroll failed HM rolls.

So yes, you can do this, but its not overly powerful as is.

Except that Mercenaries are also friendly squads, the affected models doesn't have to be good shots, the Dynastic King has a HM of 7 and a persence of 10 inch, and the 4th rank of The jade Seal boosts the affected models HM to the Dynastic King's, who can wear a Heroism banner.

It never says that the attacking models have to hit, it says they have to shoot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, rank 3 of the Jade Seal says: "Additional Effect: Target Friendly Squad causes Shock with their Ranged Attacks as a Free Activation." which I don't understand. What doesthe free activation part means?

Copied from the newest PDF on WGV:
"Additional Effect: Target Friendly Squad causes Shock with their Ranged Attacks on their next Activation."

Its still a very specific strategy you have to build for, and if your Hero gets into melee, he no longer provides his HM to anyone outside his squad.

Mercs cost more and are usually more limited than the original version, so that is also a drawback there.

We'll discuss if it should be successful attacks instead of just attacking.