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 cincydooley wrote:
Are we talking about serialization or all of the formatting and pricing pieces?

We're talking about paying more for getting something first.

 cincydooley wrote:
And I get that you're poking a bit of fun at me for using the "industry standard" line, but I mean, its the truth...

Sorry, I'm not trying to make fun of you. I'm just using that as a label for the point of view that BL must try to be more like publishing giants in order to survive. I disagree with that line of thought. To me, BL is instead trying to be more like GW and certain trends in publishing generally provide easy examples of how to raise prices while decreasing costs/without raising quality. I have no doubt that GW is paying close attention to the video game industry as well in this regard. Indeed, BL has been on what could be termed a "microtransaction" kick for a while now.

 Manchu wrote:
[q I'm just using that as a label for the point of view that BL must try to be more like publishing giants in order to survive. I disagree with that line of thought. To me, BL is instead trying to be more like GW and certain trends in publishing generally provide easy examples of how to raise prices while decreasing costs/without raising quality. I have no doubt that GW is paying close attention to the video game industry as well in this regard. Indeed, BL has been on what could be termed a "microtransaction" kick for a while now.

Oh, I don't think they need it at all to survive; I simply can see their justification for doing so, and because it's 'typical' have a less of a problem with it.

Good call on the micro-transactions with their short shorts, etc. My biggest problem with them is that it's hard to discern which are actually going to be worth it length wise, especially since the page #s are really, really misleading. I've learned that there's about 8-12 pages of filler in any GW eBook.

With that being said, some of the $2.99 short stories have been well done. I've had to pick and choose which, and I've ocassionally gotten a stinker.

I do think the overall quality of the BL writing has gotten better. I think the short stories are a GREAT way for them to test the waters with new authors. We got both Chris Wraight and John French that way.

I don't buy any of the short stories, they don't even put the page length up any more, I could be getting a 12 page story or a 120 page story there's just no way to tell :/

Now, if they were wanting to be *smart* and still do serialisation.

What any other company would do, is release part I for free. That way, it gets more people interested in it (eg, warhammer fantasy types), that would be willing to take a punt on it.

Then, if they particularly like the story and author, they'll be chomping at the bit for the next parts, even if it is £2 a pop.

I think there's some merit to the idea or process of serialisation.

I just don't think .. well don't feel would be more accurate here one supposes -- that this is the way to go about it.

It is exactly the sort of thing I think they should be publishing in White Dwarf, although presumably the monetary returns for that would be less than doing it this way ?

To me, BL is instead trying to be more like GW

I think you've gotten this wrong way round.

One would suggest -- and both some of the personnel/positional changes at GW and comments in things like the recent financial report lend further weight to this -- that in fact GW are moving more towards the BL way of doing things.

Hence the plethora of (direct only) limited edition books, collectors editions and "early" release of things in a digital format.

There has been some changes back the other way too of course -- hence the lack of information about forthcoming releases we now get from BL compared to what we had in the past.

Given the way in which they try to release things somewhat synergistically -- you'll note that each and every codex or rulebook is accompanied by a related Bl fiction short story or novel or somesuch far moreso these days than in the past ( which, generally, I think is a good thing and very sensible) -- one supposes they couldn't give out too much info as this could be indicative of what is forthcoming from GW/the design studio.

I think that somewhat obscures the relationship between these entities. But maybe this is my fault for talking about them as if they are separate, which is an artifact of arguing against the idea that BL is simply doing what publishers must do. The point I am really trying to make is that the company at issue here is actually GW and that the changes BL is undertaking are therefore not simply the result of the "new normal" in publishing fiction. The digital platform allows for a lot of this "mainstreaming" -- lower costs, higher prices ... even being able to harness model and fiction releases together as you mentioned.

But looking at things like Finecast and the even longer history of getting kits into plastic, i.e., the idea of lowering costs and raising prices over time, I don't think it's GW's experience with publishing fiction via BL that's driving these changes. I think that experience is, as I just mentioned, inspiring some of the specific tactics, like the HC to trade format. But GW is undoubtedly looking everywhere for such specific tactics, hence my point about BL's hard sell of micortransactions -- which owes a lot more to DLC than the ebook market for scifi novels.

Dead Blue Clown wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
LOL serialization. I'm sure someone will be along shortly to remind us that we know nothing about publishing and this is actually the only thing that makes selling fiction possible these days. I just hope it's not Aaron this time as that would be truly shameful.

The key difference (your bizarre hyperbole aside) is that last time you and a couple of others were making wild assumptions and critically misunderstanding something, so I politely explained why it was wrong and how it actually works in the industry;

Actually, if I recall correctly your "correction" was basically to tell us what we were already saying: that BL didn't need to move to TPBs in order to keep publishing (which was the lie we were arguing against), but that they do make more money and that sales weren't adversely affected by the change. In other words, you agreed that BL was greedy and offending some buyers, but disagreed that it was harmful to the company in the long term, as well as disagreeing on the magnitude of displeasure loyal customers should feel toward BL's behavior. You also agreed that it sucks that BL gave up NYT Bestseller status in exchange for additional cha-ching.




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 Alfndrate wrote:
I've never heard of books being released chapter by chapter in the modern era...

Will this book be released later on in some form of collected format like your standard dead tree or ebook?

Stephen King has done it a few times. It was usually cheaper, though.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Doesn't seem to make much of a difference to me

It can be pretty important. Think of the AdMech: they're not loyal to the Emperor but rather to the Omnissiah. Therefore, those who do not believe he is the Omnissiah ...

Never did and never will, the Space Wolves on the other hand all believe that he is the Allfather and follow him wholeheartedly and their loyalty is never bought into question even when their acts are under suspicion.

Some do believe him to be the Omnissiah and accept him so, but the relationship between the Emperor and the Admech was initially a bargained loyalty. After those that did not believe he was the Omnissiah or wish to follow him seized the Temple of All Knowledge and the Emperor and his Space Marines put down the brief rebellion he had the means to make it, take me as you Omnissiah as many of you recognise me to be or I will release the Space Marines. It was a gamble of the Emperor behalf as well for a war with Mars would have been extremely costly for both sides and he needed Mars, but it paid off. Kelbor Hal in Mechanicum reflects on this saying that he never trusted or accepted the Emperor as the Omnissiah if I recall, grudgingly having to bend the knee.

The Wolves are the most loyal if you ask me, blind loyalty, after all you couldn't trust a dis loyal legion to be the executioners could you, even the World Eaters say something to that extent.

Just some musings on the Fists. They on the other hand, it's like it is their will to be loyal, they force themselves into doing it, it is their duty to be loyal and they will be, much with everything else it's their stubbornness that makes them so. Dorn was the only Primarch to go out and find his Father, maybe it was this determination to serve that forced him out into the stars. Thinking on it maybe that's what broke Dorn in the end, losing his direction. He no longer had a father to serve, all that he knew was changing around him, the Imperium was ash and dust, his Legion taken away from him. What did he have left.

Isn't there a new version of Collected Visions being written that will update and coincide with the Heresy series?

Brotherhood of the Storm mentions the relationship that Horus and the Khan have.

Maybe I'm not fully up to date but how come the Ultramarines haven't been mentioned during this whole "most loyal" discussion? They seem pretty dang loyal to Emperor and Imperium. Also, as the series developed we always seem to find out how Horus had some kind of special relationship with each Primarch and how that was what bought them to or pushed them to the edge. Gulliman on the other hand didn't seem to have much of a relationship with Horus.

Because the new Fluff has already put the tarnish on ol' Rouboute's rep!

On top of that, it looks like it might get a fresh coat of grime via THE UNREMEMBERED EMPIRE too - which I'll admit I'm quite looking forward to reading!

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Maybe I'm not fully up to date but how come the Ultramarines haven't been mentioned during this whole "most loyal" discussion? They seem pretty dang loyal to Emperor and Imperium. Also, as the series developed we always seem to find out how Horus had some kind of special relationship with each Primarch and how that was what bought them to or pushed them to the edge. Gulliman on the other hand didn't seem to have much of a relationship with Horus.

I think it's partially due to, and I'll paraphrase Lorgar here, "He was too busy running his kingdom."

I don't think anyone has ever doubted Bobby's loyalty, its just that he's the one that could most easily run an autonomous empire outside of the Imperium.

 cincydooley wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Maybe I'm not fully up to date but how come the Ultramarines haven't been mentioned during this whole "most loyal" discussion? They seem pretty dang loyal to Emperor and Imperium. Also, as the series developed we always seem to find out how Horus had some kind of special relationship with each Primarch and how that was what bought them to or pushed them to the edge. Gulliman on the other hand didn't seem to have much of a relationship with Horus.

I think it's partially due to, and I'll paraphrase Lorgar here, "He was too busy running his kingdom."

I don't think anyone has ever doubted Bobby's loyalty, its just that he's the one that could most easily run an autonomous empire outside of the Imperium.

I don't see why Gulliman should be tarnished with his burden of being an excellent statesmen. So he makes planets a better place to live: how dare he!

The UM were mentioned to begin with. Alpharius lamented seeing UM and SW being prospectively being portrayed as traitors. We've been talking specifically about SW because of their Viking culture.

EDIT: Whoops, it was actually Eusebius:

Eusebius wrote:
Agree with Alph too, at this rate it is only a matter of time before we have traitor Fists or Ultras running around

 Alpharius wrote:
Because the new Fluff has already put the tarnish on ol' Rouboute's rep!

Well like I said I'm behind. I'm dissapointed to hear that. I know an super goodey two-shoes is considered a boring character but I wouldn't mind seeing a Primarch that's an exemplar and stay that way. I figured Gulliman would be the one to fill that role but I guess it's supposed to be Sanguinus. In the grim darkness of the far future only the good die young I guess.


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 Manchu wrote:
The UM were mentioned to begin with. Alpharius lamented seeing UM and SW being prospectively being portrayed as traitors. We've been talking specifically about SW because of their Viking culture.

EDIT: Whoops, it was actually Eusebius:

Eusebius wrote:
Agree with Alph too, at this rate it is only a matter of time before we have traitor Fists or Ultras running around

So we're proactively lameting the inevitable need to show "the dark side of the Ultramarines" or that's already happened? I only just finished Mechanicum. No Spoilers please!

There's nothing to spoil as of yet regarding the UM's faithfulness except some people believe the short story Rules of Engagement and the upcoming Unremembered Empire tarnish Guilliman's reputation for loyalty, if you consider those spoilers ...

the last serialized novel we had from BL was Phalanx, last year in Hammer & Bolter...
so, this new move is not exactly out of left field for BL...
the only difference is that H&B is a better deal, because you get a few other short stories with each issue...

personally, i'm happy to wait, and be able to read the whole story in on go...
i'm excited for some White Scars action, but really, in my life, six months pass in the blink of an eye, so waiting isn't a big deal...
besides, it's not like i don't have a hundred books i can read again while i wait...
maybe even paint some minis...

the latest HH release was a good one...
if you haven't grabbed Vulkan Lives, or are on the fence, get it...
it was a fast read, that kept me wanting to know more...
pretty much all fresh, new, stuff...
the Salamanders are interesting, and even have a new unit type we haven't seen in action...
i will be looking for them to make an appearance in the next Forge World book...

anyway, i think it's worth the read, either today, or sometime in 2014...

cheers
jah

 reds8n wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:


Isn't there a new version of Collected Visions being written that will update and coincide with the Heresy series?

Yes.

Revised, updated and corrected.

next year.

http://www.blacklibrary.com/Blog/visions-of-treachery.html

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Horus-Heresy-Visions-Alan-Merrett/dp/1849702160

http://www.amazon.com/Horus-Heresy-Visions-Alan-Merrett/dp/1849702160

I'm hoping for completely new contents, as the old ones are a huge disappointment, with some of the worst art I've ever seen, particularly Mr Blanche's mess.

Well like I said I'm behind. I'm dissapointed to hear that. I know an super goodey two-shoes is considered a boring character but I wouldn't mind seeing a Primarch that's an exemplar and stay that way. I figured Gulliman would be the one to fill that role but I guess it's supposed to be Sanguinus. In the grim darkness of the far future only the good die young I guess.

I don't see how you can consider Sanguinius an exemplar, his robes are grubby enough from the BA fluff already in place, even if you're behind in the HH books. His possible flaws have been alluded to since the first codex in 2nd edition.

Ok, he apparently overcame them, if indeed he suffered with them at all, but he isn't perfect.

Wait what flaws are you talking about?

Even Horus thought Sanguinius should have been Warmaster.

 jah-joshua wrote:

the Salamanders are interesting, and even have a new unit type we haven't seen in action...
i will be looking for them to make an appearance in the next Forge World book...

I noticed that in Angel Exterminatus, I had the thought more than once while reading it (thoroughly enjoyed it mind) that the HH books could very well be on their way to becoming the equivalent of a Mattel Saturday morning cartoon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:
Wait what flaws are you talking about?

Even Horus thought Sanguinius should have been Warmaster.

Well, the anti-Sanguinius camp would cite his apparent mutation, there's all the blood stuff and the constant implications around vampirism, and Horus clearly saw something to be exploited, hence the events in Fear To Tread. Trying to stay spoiler free here!

The Pyroclasts give me some nerd boner.

You know what I also really liked? The actual use of snipers in both Angel Exterminatus and Vulkan Lives. I thought that was a nice thing to see finally.

I actually quite like the idea of some elements of the Loyalist Legions fighting for the warmaster, and actually think it makes a lot of sense.
- The legions were massive, spread all over the galaxy. Not all of them would have been on a tight leash and getting regular twitter updates from their Primarch telling them where to fight and against whom.
- Loads of marines within the traitor legions remained loyalist, would make sense that the opposite would apply on occasion.
- It makes the story less dull!

Problem with the above: We don't really have a solid foundational argument for why Horus turned against the Emperor yet, turning the galaxy and everything that they had known on its head, so presumably those loyalist marines that did follow him were just doing it for kicks

 reds8n wrote:
I think there's some merit to the idea or process of serialisation.

I just don't think .. well don't feel would be more accurate here one supposes -- that this is the way to go about it.

It is exactly the sort of thing I think they should be publishing in White Dwarf, although presumably the monetary returns for that would be less than doing it this way ?

Yes I think the same way.. although presumably anyone who cared about content in WD stopped buying it many years ago. Now it would get a barely incomprehensible yell of 'murrr pictuuurres!' and a clawing at the pages of the magazine, before the pages are eaten and the remains thrown at the handler before they are dragged kicking in screaming back into their cell.

well, Pacific, i still love White Dwarf just as much as i did in the beginning...
my collection goes all the way back to #75...
i still get excited the week before it shows up, and love thumbing through each new issue...
i still subscribe, and don't see that changing anytime in the near future...

then again, i also like John Blanche, so i must be insane...
i'll just go back to my cell now...

cheers
jah

 jah-joshua wrote:
then again, i also like John Blanche, so i must be insane...
i'll just go back to my cell now...

cheers
jah

I also like his stuff a lot, can I join you and avoid the scorn and mockery of the jerks here?

I like John Blanche, too, but I won't be locked up with loonies who think WD is a good magazine!

 jah-joshua wrote:
well, Pacific, i still love White Dwarf just as much as i did in the beginning...

Haha sorry man, no offence intended!

I love John Blanche too, was one of the small number of voices who really praised the 2nd edition box art when that came out..

 Manchu wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
I really love Chris' writing, and I want to support him, but, for the first time for me with Black Library, I'm having trouble reconciling the pricing structure. [...] I'd have been willing to buy, say, a $20 "serial subscription" but a 200% markup is pretty tough for me to swallow.

As a fan of Chris Wraight myself, I have been considering the same question. It's pretty much just like with the MMPB deal; you will still be able to get the novel but you'll have to wait. Again, the model is premium price for folks who want to read it first.

http://www.amazon.com/Scars-Horus-Heresy-Chris-Wraight/dp/1849706042/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1375975056&sr=8-1&keywords=scars+chris+wraight

Nice find, Manchu.

I've not had a good read of this months white dwarf. However, it actually seems better than normal.

There's a fairly decent lengthed 'parade ground'
A painting guide that focuses on dinosaur markings for the new lizardmen.
Then a nice article about a Bretonian army.

 Orinoco wrote:
Nice find, Manchu.

I think Reds8n posted it earlier or at least the Amazon UK version.

I think people keep misinterpretting Roboute's actions. It's not that he was disloyal. It's that he felt that what he was going to do was for the greater good of the Imperium as a whole, even if it meant disagreeing with his father.

I didn't read the story myself, but from synopsises I saw, what the short story implies is that Roboute wrote the codex astartes BEFORE the Horus Heresy broke out. He wrote it because he suspected that there would be a chance Space Marines would turn traitor after the Great Crusade was over, and that there would be no place for them in a peaceful world, so he wanted to create a system where they could still fit in and where their power was limited in case of betrayal. The reason people think he's disloyal from this is because he has a conversation with an Ultramarine that "Other primarchs might declare us traitors and heretics for this, and we may even be hunted down, but we are doing what's right for the Imperium". However, he made that statement not out of personal disloyalty, but out of acknowledgement that the other primarchs will find his Codex Astartes to be a betrayal of the Imperium's values by breaking up the legions like that. And he was right. When he finally revealed the Codex Astartes, a lot of Primarchs were PISSED, and some of them really did think he was betraying them. Of course, by that point, the Horus Heresy had already broken out and Guilliman had more of a leg to stand on. When he first wrote the codex, however, he thought he would have to reveal it upon successful conclusion of the Great Crusade and was worried that the othe Primarchs would try to expel him for it. That just didn't come about thanks to the Horus Heresy.

Whether or not you still think he's disloyal due to wanting to revamp the Imperium post-Great Crusade is your choice. But it's a far cry from the "Roboute was planning to overthrow the Emperor!!!!" misinterpretation that a lot of people think this short story represented.

At least, that's the impression I got from various synopsises of the story.





Sanguinus is "perfect" in many ways. He's meant to be the pure holy angel that's both smart and nice. Note, however, that he isn't really a Mary Sue because in the end, despite all his goodness, he failed (to prevent the Horus Heresy, etc). And he died.

His Death really follows the "Too good for this sinful earth" trope. Warhammer is grimdark so it helps hammer that point home that the only primarch with no in-universe legend of his return is the one who was the most pure and good. His death along with his goodness is symbollic of all that the Imperium lost.

Not that the other loyalist primarchs weren't good guys. It's just that Sanguinus really REALLY fell into the "Wow, what a nice guy!" category.

As an aside, I suspect that's also why the Black Rage is called "The Flaw". Calling it "the flaw" is akin to saying "Sanguinus was perfect... except for one flaw." At least, that's what I suspect is the in-universe (and probably out-of-universe) reason why it's called the flaw. Everyone in-universe (and perhaps out of universe) really can't find much wrong with Sanguinus. hence the one thing that was wrong with him gets referred to as "The flaw".

 Compel wrote:
I've not had a good read of this months white dwarf. However, it actually seems better than normal.

There's a fairly decent lengthed 'parade ground'
A painting guide that focuses on dinosaur markings for the new lizardmen.
Then a nice article about a Bretonian army.

Yes but the standard bearer article goes on about how great it is all terrain is now citadel(tm) terrain(tm) and how all games are played on citadel(tm) realm of battle(tm) boards and implies anything else would look crap.