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 Selym wrote:

4) I can see the Riptide sitting on the rearguard objectives, but linebreaker? I dispute that, personally. It might be tough, but the further forward you go, the closer you are to the enemy. It will be easier to get assaulted, and the blast shots risk scattering onto yourself far more than if you take advantage of the 72" range.

You use the riptides 72'' range to take shots at things as you advance it up the flanks. If your opponent sends a melee unit against it you should be far enough away to negate that unit for a few turns before it can try to get back into the fight. If they ignore it you get to the back field and try to clear the objective in your opponent's deployment zone. Chances are if your opponent has a unit in the deployment zone it is not going to do any damage to the riptide in melee so you can sit right next to it and get line braker and deny an objective.


Another thing for those who are saying how easy it is for their codex to deal with the riptide. Are you already taking that unit? Saying "I can take X, Y and Z to kill the iiptide" is not the same as actually taking those units and if you take a unit you normally would not because of the riptide then it has done its job and warped the meta.

 lambsandlions wrote:

 Selym wrote:

4) I can see the Riptide sitting on the rearguard objectives, but linebreaker? I dispute that, personally. It might be tough, but the further forward you go, the closer you are to the enemy. It will be easier to get assaulted, and the blast shots risk scattering onto yourself far more than if you take advantage of the 72" range.

You use the riptides 72'' range to take shots at things as you advance it up the flanks. If your opponent sends a melee unit against it you should be far enough away to negate that unit for a few turns before it can try to get back into the fight. If they ignore it you get to the back field and try to clear the objective in your opponent's deployment zone. Chances are if your opponent has a unit in the deployment zone it is not going to do any damage to the riptide in melee so you can sit right next to it and get line braker and deny an objective.


Another thing for those who are saying how easy it is for their codex to deal with the riptide. Are you already taking that unit? Saying "I can take X, Y and Z to kill the iiptide" is not the same as actually taking those units and if you take a unit you normally would not because of the riptide then it has done its job and warped the meta.

I see your point about the Riptide advancing. But, IMO, the overall effectiveness of sitting back vs moving up is going to be dictated by the tactics of each individual Tau player, and their opponent.

As for saying "X" unit can deal with the Riptide, you are right on there. My suggestion of using Vanguard Veterans is pretty pointless for any SM army that doesn't field those.
Personally, I'd focus first on the markerlights, and then troops/vehicles according to their threat to my army, before targeting the Riptide.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:Gosh, I can't believe how obtuse some Marine players are here about their precious drop-podding Sternguard, who cost 2x a Riptide. If I had a drop pod army and was facing 3x Interceptor Riptides + whatever else interceptor Tau are packing, would be terrified. Considering a large proportion of your army is in those three initial drop pods as opposed to 570 points of models who have a good chance of surviving your initial shooting phase AND SHOOT YOU FIRST, it's pretty clear podding/dsing anything is a bad idead against 3x Riptides.

Sigh

Again, you are assuming you can ALWAYS shoot ALL 3 riptides at the contents of the drop pods. That isnt going to happen in actual play. Youarent getting better than BS3 on the turn i drop because you dont have interceptor marker lights on that riptide

Your continued "I wil only consider unlikely extremes" is pointless to a rational, reasoned discussion of the merits and weaknesses of the riptide. According to you it has none, which is frankly crap as far as statements go.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
I just played a couple of games with a Soulgrinder which has BS3 Pieplates, and I wasn't much impressed.

Good thing Tau can increase BS...

Not on interceptor they cant. And what happens when I kill your markerlights? What happens when my 2 LR hit your lines because you still only have a 50% chance to kill a LR *after* you penetrate? What happens when your precious MC gets TS by a 35point rhino, fails a morale check and falls back off the board?

Is the Riptide strong? YES. It is *strong*. Is it as insanely broken as you are attempting to claim throughout this thread? No.

Your premise has been disproven, over and over. Give it up

But you can have interceptor marker lights on your commanders drones. Shoot them first then line up the rip tides to fire. With a commander rocking 2 maker drones and a drone controler and intercept thats 2 BS5 marker lights on interceptor duty. Bobs's your uncle you have a BS 5 riptide or a deep strikng squad wit no cover save.

As for this thread, it seems to be ocusing on Riptides in 3's. Some things are meant to me spamed. 3 hell Drakes is awesome. Tau has always been about synergy, perhaps 3 riptides are not optimal. 2 with a squad of supporting intercepting crisis with marker drones would raise he effectivness of the whole army. This game is never a vacuum and that goes double for Tau.

Blood Angel Librarian with Fear of the Darkness in a drop pod should do the trick...

The codex has a saying
"The mind that direct the sword is more dangerous then the blade"
I say we apply that to every game.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
The codex has a saying
"The mind that direct the sword is more dangerous then the blade"
I say we apply that to every game.

Perfect

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:There's no need for ad hominem attacks if you can't substantiate a response.

Good job many, many substantive responses have been given, which you failed to counter in any effective, meaningful way.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:But just so you know, I've been playing 40k for 14 years since Codex DA in 3rd Edition, and am currently going 23 games undefeated with the new Ravenwing. The only draw was due to the
store closing early and not finishing the last turn.If you somehow doubt my tactical acumen, you're very much welcome to come down to London to have a go if you think you're 'ard enough.

Lol, internet "tough guys" crack me up.

You only play at stores? The average playing level at a store is not that high, from my experience. What is your ranking score in UK? Major tournament wins or places? Anything a little bit more externally verifiable than your appeal to authority fallacy, to sit amongst the other fallacies you are committing?

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:The terrain I play on is rather sparse and there is usually not very many places to hide, this probably influences my response. But if you look at tournament arrangements, there rarely is that much cover
anyway (25%) of the boards is recommended. Also, 2/3 of the deployments favour Tau, as diagonal deployment and long board edge deployment play to their strengths.

Nope, if you look at tournament arrangements terrrain is quite good. I take it from your use of adepticon you dont have a UK tournament you can point to for terrain levels? Even our local 50 player tournament we fil the boards at least 25% coverage, with a mix of LOS and non-LOS blocking terrain.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:It's pretty plain that your solutions are bad against 3 Riptides. So far DE poison spam is probably the strongest counter, but if you focus the Riptides as Ascalom has found out
your army dies to other things.

Its pretty plain that you have made a lot of assertions, and when challenged have responded with MORE assertions

Never the bad, only ever the good. ALWAYS able to JSJ out of los (never rolling poorly on 2D6", despite it only averaging 7"), yet ALWAYS able to have all 3 able to intercept. ALWAYS able to novacharge, AND simultaneously gain a 3++, which is not just unlikely but actually against the rules!

Amusing.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:As a pretty astute player has pointed out, by attacking the Riptides you lose the game, because you're wasting firepower which could kill far less resilient things.

It depends what you attack it with. Attacking it with a runepriest in pod (remember, you said two were together) gives a 25% chance roughly to kill both, and 50% to kill one. For a cheap pod and GH unit. 24" range is pretty good, because if you havent got both together, then one is more central and more easily shot....

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:In any case, you can bubble wrap the Riptides effectively with screens of cheap Kroot. Think less of using the Riptides in isolation but rather having three resilient firing platforms
with versatile firepower which cannot be stunned, shaken, or otherwise stopped.

Wel, they can be pinned. Amazing how many rules you conveniently forget. they can also be forced to take a morale check or fall back. Another thing you dont consider - always the good! never the bad!

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Jaws is limited to a 24" range, psychic test, Deny the Witch, and only has a 1/2 chance of removing the Riptide.

Except that if youre bubble wrapping then there are other units to aim Jaws at, killing the bubble wrap witht he units shooting while denying the tide a chance to DtW. Oh, and remember two are together - you've said so yourself, more than once this thread. Or are they now NOT together? Which is it?

Never the bad! Always the good!

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:Even then, there still are two Riptides to deal with... and your Rune Priest has just put himself in a position to be shot by the entire Tau army.

And? I've sacrificed a 280pt demon prince to kill a manticore - because that was the tactically astute thing to do (as in, won me the game)

Your also still somehow assuming its only one riptide. It isnt, it is at least one - roughly 25% chance of two, with some careful positioning of a RP or two

(this also ignores - rp on bikes, which can turbo to get out of LOS, just to counter your "but but but interceptor! with all 3! always!")

So, any chance of you providing a balanced reasoned, non-fallacious response? Something that shows an ounce of thought of the drawbacks, or that actually addresses the points raised so far?

I think Asmodai is making the mistake of coming on too strongly. This often turns people off!

LValx wrote:
I think Asmodai is making the mistake of coming on too strongly. This often turns people off!

Thats one of the mistakes.

Consistently refusing to even acknowledge that things may not go perfectly for the Riptide isnt helping. Everytime it needs it it has a 3++, AND all 3 can intercept, AND all 3 can always JSJ perfectly, AND...AND....AND....
Its a bemusing way to try to discuss a point, as it lacks the discourse element.

 samuele999 wrote:
What about the simple terminators with storm shields and thunder hammers, or just hordes of orks? You aint going to kill that many ork boys at 180pts for 30, or what about pycannons, or a vanguard veteran squad, or draigo or even better lysander with his storms shield buddies? running 3, leaves you with little pts for anti air or any other shizzle in 1500pts? And because tournament boards are so small you are going to get assaulted by so many things that don't care if you kill 20 of them per turn.

Just seeing the amount of love for the Riptides (like some people do not want to even think or say it can be stopped) I was thinking of what I might normally have on the table at any given time. IG - Marbo which might sneak up and drop his own pie plate, or snipe, Basilisk with better range, a Str 10 pie plate, a handful of Lascannons, and some deep striking of my own. Maybe even orbital bombardment each turn. (After all the model is cheap) Sure they can be targets, all of them, which means nothing is shooting at my Lemun Russ, which hey could have melta templates too, or whatever gun I am using on which ever one I want to use, my flyer on top of that with guns a blazing.
Chaos, well, any number of things follow that Helldrake (which I have ye to get) like Obllits, and tanks, and deep striking Termies.
C:SM or well any Space Marine, Drop Pods, Orbital Strikes (not that I use that but it's there) Deep strikes, my tanks with guns a blazing.

Something will reach it, something will get shots off. And a lot of the time, it's something cheaper than the unit it's shooting at. I am not an anyway saying these are the best methods to combat the Riptide, but I can get my army across the board fast, I've proven it, just to prove it. I can get there, I an get shots off.

So no better and no worse than anything else out there. It's just different. Not unstoppable or the auto win at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Please bring two LR, Drop Pods and Rhinos against my Tau force. I guarantee you won't cross the no-man's land. Face it, Codex Marines are boned against Tau.

Yes, I wil take your obviously educated and well thought out position....wait, no, thats not what you have demonstrated thus far

Every criticism of your stance has either been ignored or "refuted" by going "nah uh!" . Neither of which are constructive, mature and rational responses to a discussion thread

You havea sset position, and no amount of reasoned discussion will remove you from it. Your amount of sheer blind faith is impressive

Reminds me of Family Guy...I want to just say, "You are wrong, Tau Suck, because 'Road House!"

It seems some people here lack the socialisation to respond to a debate about toy robots without introducing a personal element; Not once in this thread have I insulted or denigrated someone
aside from their logical failings. If this is incitement for you to start personal attacks, please restrain yourself by clicking the ignore button in the right corner.

Nevertheless, I shall respond in kind. *cracks knuckles*

If you stop frothing at the mouth for a second and go back and read the original post, not once do I claim a Riptide is an insta-win unit or any inflated claims you have ascribed to my
stance. All I've put up was a simple point-by-point comparison of the Helldrake (perceived to be the most gamebreaking unit) to the Riptide, with some questions on how to deal with it.

As the argument developed, I realised that drop-podding veterans or Sternguard or RPs is not a brilliant idea because it has interceptor, shoots you first, and puts a bulk of points in a position
of certain death in the next turn while having an uncertain likelihood of killing the Riptide. I also realised that normal solutions against MCs, who have all been short-ranged so far, fail against the superior range and movement of the Riptide in the hands of a savvy player. Also, I realised that attacking the Riptide itself may be a game-losing prospect because you're diverting your firepower from units that actually need to get killed, like their fragile troops choices. Likewise, I recognised that maybe BS3 Large Blast scatter isn't all that reliable, but in combination with markerlights can be deadly.

However, the majority of the responses have either failed to grasp these basic concepts or simply rehash old chestnuts (Jaws it! Everyone plays/or has drop podding SW Rune Priest allies!)
and as repetition of my argument against the same responses has jarred some, let us all take a pause to realise there are no easy solutions to stopping a Riptide, much less three unlike back-field camping vehicles. Of course it's killable, I've never claimed otherwise. It's just disproportionately durable/shooty than anything that has precedented it. For once, GW has suceeded in creating an entirely unique new unit that isn't easy mode like the Helldrake. It actually requires placement, thought, and co-ordination with other elements in the force to be effective. Good game design or just bad Helldrake design? You be the judge.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:You're assuming that the 3++ goes off every time and that you can also use the Nova Reactor to boost the shooting? Of course it's going to seem unstoppable with those assumptions. The fact that you don't play with enough terrain further skews the results in favour of the Riptide. You're coming across as incredibly arrogant to me, but it might just be the Internet.

What's the point in assuming it fails every time and your plasma cannon always gets hot? We plan for potentials, not failures. Also, you can overcharge without Nova-charging. This may seem a little confusing to people who haven't read the codex, but it's a common misconception. I'm not entirely sure what is 'enough terrain' but you can have a look at my first battle-report to see the boards I play on and come to your own conclusions. Again, if it's too personal for you, you don't have to read the post or reply to it.

Carnage43 wrote:Your posting style is extremely frustrating and hostile, and carries a subtext of "if you don't agree with me, you are stupid", so hopefully this doesn't get turned into a flame war.

Read what you like into my posting style, you always have the option of not reading it and not replying. Mind, you introduced the personal element by insulting all my opponents as A) Bad Players and B) myself as a Bad Player in your very first reply, so don't chuck the petrol can into the fire and then claim to 'hope this doesn't turn into a flame war.'

You never claimed such....well, there are 4 explanations in my mind to a 23-0 record;

1. You are a vastly better player then your opponents (whom are of "average" LFGS level), making you some one in a hundred gaming genius.
2. Your opponents are poor.
3. You are lying about your record (it's the internet, why not?)
4. You cheat....a lot.

Giving you the benefit of the doubt that you aren't a cheater or a liar, or you are flaunting your records to just be a braggart...that leaves mediocre opponents, as if they were on your level the dice would have handed you at least 1 loss in the course of 23+ games. My experience with LFGS play is crap opponents overall. Maybe 1 out of 30 is decent, but they are rare, and much like myself have gotten tired of stomping the poor players on "friendly" gaming nights and retired to play at home with friends in a less serious atmosphere or against opponents they know will give them a challenge. So most likely you are fairly good, and your opponents really aren't in your league, similar to myself. If you want actual interweb credibility, you will have to post some major tournament wins like a few of the players around these forums. You won't get much credibility just throwing up a win/loss record where you cannot verify the quality of your opponents, or even if you are lying or not.

Well all these are possibilities, and thank you for not implying I'm a huge liar and cheat and braggart right off the bat (subtext?) All this is irrelevant to the discussion, of course. Let's leave the personal out of it, and keep to the topic.

Ways to lessen the impact of a unit;
#1 Kill it.
#2 Hide from or kite it.
...etc

Killing it is a way to lessen it's impact on a game. Granted, it's fairly difficult to kill, but counting it's nova reactor working every turn is silly. Odds are one of the three is going to fail that 3+ throw, so it will attract the available firepower. Also your argument of "It will always be out of range" is a bit of an exaggeration as well. In a standard setup, the furthest you could deploy away from a unit I was trying to get close is 32.5" (12" up, 48" across the board, ~3.5" wide base), in vanguard strike it's ~48" (I think...I mapped it out, but it's late and my math might be sketchy), and playing length wise, you are looking ~44.5". That's 1 turn of movement for a unit with 48" range at WORST. You are rarely out of range with a 48" weapon on a 6x4 board in my experience, so a 72" range is largely unnecessary, and does little to protect you from 48" range weapons as there just isn't the room get to that max range. It's also difficult to argue that the Riptide will always be out of LOS due to JSJ, then state that it will always have a good target to fire at.

Not once did I argue it will always be out of LOS, or any sort of JSJ shenanigans. I only argued that it would be hard to catch with its 2/4D6 reposition. The only time I argued it will always have a unit to fire at is when people argue drop-podding sternguard or the Doom of Malan'tai, both of which have extremely short ranges. Again, units with 48" range are usually cover dependent, and will hence deploy at the back or such. In any case, you find a way to deploy out of it... unless you're going first, in which you can mitigate equal range by shooting them first.

I'm not 100% clear what your point was really. Was it that any firepower directed at it at all is a complete waste because it would almost certainly have a more optimal target elsewhere? There's other ways to deal with other units, but the Riptide will require a fair amount of firepower to bring down. So if you want it dead, and you will want to kill it quite often, then you will have to free up the available firepower by engaging other units with other tools.

The point was, sometimes the decision to even attack the Riptide is the wrong decision. See Therion's post. In any case, having a unit which people don't even shoot at because it's too survivable is a double edged sword. Sure, it gets to do its thing, but then your other units are bearing the brunt of the shooting.

I think you missed MY point here. Riptides aren't free, and for what you are paying for them some times it's worth throwing away a smaller unit for a chance to take it out. Losing a 100 point rune priest for a 50% chance to drop a Riptide is a pretty decent gamble actually. Of course no one would field 6 rune priests, hell, more then 1 would be rare in a competitive list.

If you realise this, then why even bring up 6 RPs? It's a 135 point RP, which includes the Drop Pod... and a free FB if you get intercepted, which you probably will being a single model against three intercepting Riptides. Adding the cost of the Grey Hunters inside... it comes out worse for the SW.

I really don't know how else to phrase it. It doesn't really do anything we aren't accustom to dealing with. We all have experience dealing with T6 multi wound 2+ save creatures with Dreadknights, Tyranno-fexes and Mephiston kicking around. The only real challenge it provides is that it likes to sit back instead of coming forward like the others, but we also have experience dealing with units like to sit back because of heavy artillery or back field leman russes or whatnot.

What I really don't get is your overall point. Are you trying to claim that Riptides are our new overlords and we should all bow to our soon to be tournament dominating Tau masters? Because I don't think that's what you really mean, and I don't think that's true anyways, since Tau are largely a middle of the road army from what I can see. Sure Riptides are a good, maybe even a great unit, but they won't change the way we think about the game or cause people to run back to the drawing board to start their tournament lists from scratch like Helldrakes did. Helldrakes have a lot more reach with their firepower (since LOS and cover are largely irrelevant due to it's speed and weapon), not to mention their firepower is a fair bit more impressive and very alpha strike style. Riptides are just another long range template heavy weapon in many regards. In terms of staying power that really depends on the amount of anti-aircraft the opponent has, but overall neither is very easy to get rid of, but you have a lot more options when dealing with a Riptide.

In the end, I'm keeping my eye on the battle report forum and looking for some local Tau players to play against to see how it fares on the board, but I don't really expect it to be a dominating presence.

There, a civil response wasn't so difficult now, was it? The point is it's not a shortranged MC which is usually dealt with by volume of plasma fire, or a sit-back and shoot LRBT because it moves and can't get one-shotted by melta. Helldrakes changed the meta because they were an entirely new unit type, i.e. Flyer. I'm saying the Riptide may be as such, I.E shooty long-ranged jump MC. I've covered the differences in Helldrake firepower and Riptide firepower in my first post; This is the entirety of my argument here, that the Riptide seems better on paper because it shoots from turn 1, can't get glanced, is more versatile, works against DS and TEQ, etc. etc. Helldrakes are more of a turn 2 Beta-Strike- all flyers are. Alpha-strike really should refer only to first turn pwnage.
Wouldn't a comparison be more useful than making blanket statements about the people I play with?

Again, you are assuming you can ALWAYS shoot ALL 3 riptides at the contents of the drop pods. That isnt going to happen in actual play. Youarent getting better than BS3 on the turn i drop because you dont have interceptor marker lights on that riptide

Your continued "I wil only consider unlikely extremes" is pointless to a rational, reasoned discussion of the merits and weaknesses of the riptide. According to you it has none, which is frankly crap as far as statements go.

I honestly don't see how drop-podding sternguard can hope to hide from the Riptides they're trying to shoot at close range. I have listed plenty of weaknesses of the Riptides, such as flying MCs and Fortune-Councils/Beastpacks.

Not on interceptor they cant. And what happens when I kill your markerlights? What happens when my 2 LR hit your lines because you still only have a 50% chance to kill a LR *after* you penetrate? What happens when your precious MC gets TS by a 35point rhino, fails a morale check and falls back off the board?

Is the Riptide strong? YES. It is *strong*. Is it as insanely broken as you are attempting to claim throughout this thread? No.

Your premise has been disproven, over and over. Give it up

When have I claimed its insanely broken? How is this magic rhino going to get across the board to TS my riptide? Have you never used LRs against Str 10 Railguns before? All these non-solutions really perplex me. Nothing has been disproven yet, there have only been arguments.

This whole thread is hilarious. It's like arguing with a child who starts to kick and scream "three pie plates!" with their fingers in their ears, oblivious to what anyone has to say.

This whole business of arguing about toy soldiers is hilarious, but it's not stopping us from going on Dakka, is it?

Im glad you sorted the tactics out here.

Someone has to! TH/SS are not the answer. They are to DKs and things that assault your lines (and even then, not very good ones) but not Riptides.

Selym wrote:For people who believe that triple Riptides are going to win your games for you, bear in mind these points:

1) Most games are objective-based. While any KP game will favour the riptide, you're spending 555+ points on three models who cannot capture objectives, and will rarely contest ans they need to stay far away from the enemy to be effective.

2) Terrain. You can't see everything. Units can/will hide from you.

3) There are weapons, psychic powers and tactics that can cause the Riptide to fail morale, and fall back 3D6". You often say you'll camp on the back of the game board so that you can snipe. If the Riptide falls back even once, it's dead.

4) Using interceptor gives you *some* chance of killing a unit before it can do anything, when it appears. But you have a fair chance of failing to eradicate it, and cannot shoot in your turn to get better targets.

5) Overcharging has a chance of FAILURE. You can hurt yourself quite badly if you over-rely on it.

6) You're spending a large chunk of points on something that's effectiveness can be negated somewhat.

1) Not entirely necessarily, See replies from others. In any case, they can be extremely hard to dislodge as a contester when it comes to it.

2) Yes, and? Not everything can be hidden, and hiding in general is a defensive move. Defensive moves don't win games. Offence does.

3) They are generally quite short-ranged (24") and mounted on things weak against insta-death plasma (Librarians?) and there's a simple solution for this... don't place them so near the board edge.

4) So, you'd rather shoot something that's shot you first? Situational, of course. But in general, I'd rather be able to shoot first like Han. (Boo! Hiss!)

5) Don't confuse overcharging with Nova charging. Overcharging is like firing a Plasma cannon/gun. People do it all the time but no one says BUT PLASMA WEAPONS GET HOT! WHAT IF THEY GET HOT!

6) By what, pray tell? How do you negate the effectiveness of a Riptide short of killing it? (I.e. Shaken or stunned, not cover and invuln saves)

Hoopified wrote:I've dropped 2 riptides by turn 3 using the chaos codex and hel turkeys. The " which is better argument " really is they come out to a tie. I can blow riptides off the board and tau can kill my hel turkeys, oh well. I play a nurgle army and drop tau about the same every time because tactics count for something even though dice are random. My flyers are used to distract and remove infantry types with the flamers and deal with light vehicles and other flyers. Between my obliterators and my havocs and my plague marines riptides lasted on a few games to turn 4, yes they are dangerous,but, not superman. Nor are helturkeys the end all of the chaos codex, I'd rather they made blight drones a choice for a flyer in the chaos codex my self. I've used a sorcerer to enfeebled a riptide and pie plated him to dead with a vindicator.... Not un-killable at that point. I've had my turkeys popped coming in from reserve from a double force org ADL with quad guns. Poof no turkeys. They are more even due to what they are designed to do. You take a riptide to pop a tank like a landraider or battle wagon, flyers and kill infantry. You take a heldrake to kill infantry, flyers and lite vehicles. Really they do there jobs well. If your going to compare them to each other base it on their roles on the field, they weren't designed to do the same thing.

This is... unintelligble. But it's nice to see you're in favour of a tie. Let's see: Tactics DO count for something, yes! I'm not sure how you distract with Flyers, aside from their large flying bases and dazzling paintjob, but yes, you've grasped the basics of using a Helldrake... but not the enter key. I'd say Superman is far more dangerous than Riptides, so we are in agreement here, since he can fly at the speed of light and punch aliens. Blight drones are nice too, but we don't want Nurgle to be the end all of the Chaos codex, do we? I've used three enfeebles and a Rad grenade to ID a Daemon Prince with boltgun to dead myself too! Short range weapons and maledictions work so well against things that don't have a 60" range. I've had my turkeys popped coming out from the oven after a 24 hour brine, it was so Thanksgiving. They were so delicious! Poof, no turkeys. You do not take a riptide to pop a tank like a Land Raider or a battle wagon, you take Longstrike for that. Gosh, I forgot what Helldrakes were for! Thanks for reminding me again. I'd really wait for the fourth quarter performance report to make a call on that one. Well, arguably there are no 'designs' in 40k, only models which remove other models in slightly different ways. But thank you for your insight.

some random necron guy wrote:
Necron Dlord with sempiternal weave, MSS and rez orb in a challenge? Jump infantry, S7 ignore armor, rerolls all around along with forcing a 3d6 Lds to hit seem like a pretty good deal to me. 4+ Ever living never hurts either.

Yes, DLords are great! Thanks for reminding us.

Don't forget nightscythe for transport with some lych guard

However, Lych Guard aren't. Bad random necron!

Furyou Miko wrote:Seriously?

This thing is one outflanking Dominion or Deep Striking Seraphim squad away from the scrap heap. Drop-Pod combi-melta could do it, too (or combi-plasma for that matter).

Hey, I know! Lets just Veil in a unit of Lychguard with shields and a duelling lord, just for laughs, shall we?

Ooh, ooh, I know! Lets break out the Tri-las Predators and Leman Russ Battle Tanks!

As much as I love my girls I would never deep-strike my Seraphim next to it. See arguments on Drop-podding effectiveness against interceptor plasma.

Again, this would necessitate taking Lychguard, and I assure you laughs will be had.

Gosh, LRBTs are so good at hunting MCs! Not.

Silly post.

You really can't play this game out in sections like a vacuum. I stopped reading when the OP suggested that a Rune Priest would never make it close enough to use JoTWW. You are going to run out of space to flee eventually and not counting LoS restrctions as well...

It may be a giant anime fan robot but it certainly isn't invincible and it can certainly be caught.

 Budikah wrote:
Silly post.

You really can't play this game out in sections like a vacuum. I stopped reading when the OP suggested that a Rune Priest would never make it close enough to use JoTWW. You are going to run out of space to flee eventually and not counting LoS restrctions as well...

It may be a giant anime fan robot but it certainly isn't invincible and it can certainly be caught.

"It's going to run out of space to flee eventually"

"eventually"

How long is eventually? It only takes 1 turn to whipe out the entire runepriest unit. Runepriest gets 3++ vs instant death if he's got a stormshield, and it's pinning after that, and the rest of the shooting after that.

hotsauceman1 wrote:The codex has a saying
"The mind that direct the sword is more dangerous then the blade"
I say we apply that to every game.

Very good, I hope people grasp this. We are analysing blades, however, here.

Heartless wrote:Blood Angel Librarian with Fear of the Darkness in a drop pod should do the trick...

No, no it won't. See Rune Priest argument and First Blood.

But you can have interceptor marker lights on your commanders drones. Shoot them first then line up the rip tides to fire. With a commander rocking 2 maker drones and a drone controler and intercept thats 2 BS5 marker lights on interceptor duty. Bobs's your uncle you have a BS 5 riptide or a deep strikng squad wit no cover save.

As for this thread, it seems to be ocusing on Riptides in 3's. Some things are meant to me spamed. 3 hell Drakes is awesome. Tau has always been about synergy, perhaps 3 riptides are not optimal. 2 with a squad of supporting intercepting crisis with marker drones would raise he effectivness of the whole army. This game is never a vacuum and that goes double for Tau.

I wasn't aware you could have interceptor markerlights on your commander's drones, if so they would be awesome. Then again, the disincentive to Deep Strike is already huge. Do they get skyfire too? Can't you shoehorn the supporting Crisis suits into the bodyguard? Crisis suits have never impressed me with their schizophrenic firepower- if they could have doubles of every weapon at longer ranges, they would be good, but so far...

4) I can see the Riptide sitting on the rearguard objectives, but linebreaker? I dispute that, personally. It might be tough, but the further forward you go, the closer you are to the enemy. It will be easier to get assaulted, and the blast shots risk scattering onto yourself far more than if you take advantage of the 72" range.
You use the riptides 72'' range to take shots at things as you advance it up the flanks. If your opponent sends a melee unit against it you should be far enough away to negate that unit for a few turns before it can try to get back into the fight. If they ignore it you get to the back field and try to clear the objective in your opponent's deployment zone. Chances are if your opponent has a unit in the deployment zone it is not going to do any damage to the riptide in melee so you can sit right next to it and get line braker and deny an objective.

Another thing for those who are saying how easy it is for their codex to deal with the riptide. Are you already taking that unit? Saying "I can take X, Y and Z to kill the iiptide" is not the same as actually taking those units and if you take a unit you normally would not because of the riptide then it has done its job and warped the meta.

I'm glad someone is also pointing out the numerous problems with counter-arguments in this thread and grasping how Riptides should be used.

I see your point about the Riptide advancing. But, IMO, the overall effectiveness of sitting back vs moving up is going to be dictated by the tactics of each individual Tau player, and their opponent.

As for saying "X" unit can deal with the Riptide, you are right on there. My suggestion of using Vanguard Veterans is pretty pointless for any SM army that doesn't field those.
Personally, I'd focus first on the markerlights, and then troops/vehicles according to their threat to my army, before targeting the Riptide.

No SM army should field Vanguard Veterans until they get some sort of points reduction. Markerlights dying first is difficult to counter in a Tau force.

Good job many, many substantive responses have been given, which you failed to counter in any effective, meaningful way.

Ah Nosferatu1001, my nemesis! Actually, no, I don't know you from Jack, so your hostility is entirely puzzling and replying to a post which wasn't even directed at you? Troubling.

Lol, internet "tough guys" crack me up.

You only play at stores? The average playing level at a store is not that high, from my experience. What is your ranking score in UK? Major tournament wins or places? Anything a little bit more
externally verifiable than your appeal to authority fallacy, to sit amongst the other fallacies you are committing?

Clearly jokey sarcasm and the concept of what an 'Internet Tough Guy' is is lost on you, but I make no argument from authority here. I have never said I'm more qualified than anyone to make an opinion, nor have I said the standard of competition was high; I was just defending myself in response to someone saying I have never played 40k before. Unlike Internet Tough Guys, I offer you the unique experience of offering a game in a definable and accessible location, the great metropolis of London itself.

Nope, if you look at tournament arrangements terrrain is quite good. I take it from your use of adepticon you dont have a UK tournament you can point to for terrain levels? Even our local 50 player tournament we fil the boards at least 25% coverage, with a mix of LOS and non-LOS blocking terrain.

Congratulations on playing on boards with 25% coverage! Are you implying that UK tourneys have... somehow much denser terrain than the example I gave? Does it matter where the geographical location of the board/tournament is? Do any of these factors matter when I don't usually play with that much terrain?

Its pretty plain that you have made a lot of assertions, and when challenged have responded with MORE assertions

Never the bad, only ever the good. ALWAYS able to JSJ out of los (never rolling poorly on 2D6", despite it only averaging 7"), yet ALWAYS able to have all 3 able to intercept. ALWAYS able to novacharge, AND simultaneously gain a 3++, which is not just unlikely but actually against the rules!

Amusing.

Sadly, on an internet forum assertions are all we have! I'm noting the options here available in a best-case scenario. Why would I assert that Riptides always fail their rolls and overheat? It's pretty useless to the argument.

Don't confuse overcharging with Nova-charging, nugget.

It depends what you attack it with. Attacking it with a runepriest in pod (remember, you said two were together) gives a 25% chance roughly to kill both, and 50% to kill one. For a cheap pod and GH unit. 24" range is pretty good, because if you havent got both together, then one is more central and more easily shot....

I'm not sure how sketchy your math is, but after scatter, psychic test, DTW and initiative check, it's slightly less than 50%.
For a cheap pod and GH unit which cost more than the Riptide(s) you podded in to kill. Because I would line them up for a single Jaws to take them up.

What is with this Jaws obsession, anyway? Do we all secretly yearn to be Space Wolf players, some how? Some desperation to use a Psychic power as much as possible before it disappears in the next iteration of the SW codex?

Well, they can be pinned. Amazing how many rules you conveniently forget. they can also be forced to take a morale check or fall back. Another thing you dont consider - always the good! never the bad!

Considering they have leadership 9, relying on morale checks to kill Riptides is a flawed strategy. So they're susceptible to morale attacks; when was the last time you pulled morale attacks off reliably and succesfully or based your army around them?

Except that if youre bubble wrapping then there are other units to aim Jaws at, killing the bubble wrap witht he units shooting while denying the tide a chance to DtW. Oh, and remember two are together - you've said so yourself, more than once this thread. Or are they now NOT together? Which is it?

Never the bad! Always the good!

You're right, I should always gimp myself when I play against other players by putting my units in the worst position possible.

And? I've sacrificed a 280pt demon prince to kill a manticore - because that was the tactically astute thing to do (as in, won me the game)

Your also still somehow assuming its only one riptide. It isnt, it is at least one - roughly 25% chance of two, with some careful positioning of a RP or two

(this also ignores - rp on bikes, which can turbo to get out of LOS, just to counter your "but but but interceptor! with all 3! always!")

So, any chance of you providing a balanced reasoned, non-fallacious response? Something that shows an ounce of thought of the drawbacks, or that actually addresses the points raised so far?

If you reply in a non-balanced, un-reasoning, fallacious and hostile manner, what makes you think you're deserving of a 'balanced, reasoned, and non-fallacious' response? But I shall be magnanimous.

You know, it's not that hard to position 3 Riptides 24" away from each other and not line them up without suffering a reduction in firepower, if you know that drop-podding priests are coming down.

RP on bikes! Now we're getting somewhere. This is a far better idea than Drop Pod Rune Priests (seriously, just no.) You have mobility and can threaten more than just the Riptide, and still survive a turn of its return firepower and not get insta-deathed. Bikes are great in 6th, but so few SW players I know give them a chance. The new codex should see a reduction in their price too, since DA bikes are 15 points cheaper than current SM ones.

LValx wrote:I think Asmodai is making the mistake of coming on too strongly. This often turns people off!

Hey baby, I'd like to show you my Blades of Reason.. no wait, stop, come back! Is it my dress? I can lose the dress!

Consistently refusing to even acknowledge that things may not go perfectly for the Riptide isnt helping. Everytime it needs it it has a 3++, AND all 3 can intercept, AND all 3 can always JSJ perfectly, AND...AND....AND....
Its a bemusing way to try to discuss a point, as it lacks the discourse element.

Okay, my Riptide fails all its Nova reactor charges, fails all its saves and dies. Great discussion! Pack it up folks. Riptides suck.

What about the simple terminators with storm shields and thunder hammers, or just hordes of orks? You aint going to kill that many ork boys at 180pts for 30, or what about pycannons, or a vanguard veteran squad, or draigo or even better lysander with his storms shield buddies? running 3, leaves you with little pts for anti air or any other shizzle in 1500pts? And because tournament boards are so small you are going to get assaulted by so many things that don't care if you kill 20 of them per turn.

Nu-uh, you didn't just Draigo me. Draigo wins if he gets put on the table, don't you know?

Just seeing the amount of love for the Riptides (like some people do not want to even think or say it can be stopped) I was thinking of what I might normally have on the table at any given time. IG - Marbo which might sneak up and drop his own pie plate, or snipe, Basilisk with better range, a Str 10 pie plate, a handful of Lascannons, and some deep striking of my own. Maybe even orbital bombardment each turn. (After all the model is cheap) Sure they can be targets, all of them, which means nothing is shooting at my Lemun Russ, which hey could have melta templates too, or whatever gun I am using on which ever one I want to use, my flyer on top of that with guns a blazing.

Chaos, well, any number of things follow that Helldrake (which I have ye to get) like Obllits, and tanks, and deep striking Termies.
C:SM or well any Space Marine, Drop Pods, Orbital Strikes (not that I use that but it's there) Deep strikes, my tanks with guns a blazing.

Something will reach it, something will get shots off. And a lot of the time, it's something cheaper than the unit it's shooting at. I am not an anyway saying these are the best methods to combat the Riptide, but I can get my army across the board fast, I've proven it, just to prove it. I can get there, I an get shots off.

So no better and no worse than anything else out there. It's just different. Not unstoppable or the auto win at all.

Well, yes.

Yes, I wil take your obviously educated and well thought out position....wait, no, thats not what you have demonstrated thus far

Every criticism of your stance has either been ignored or "refuted" by going "nah uh!" . Neither of which are constructive, mature and rational responses to a discussion thread

You havea sset position, and no amount of reasoned discussion will remove you from it. Your amount of sheer blind faith is impressive

Reminds me of Family Guy...I want to just say, "You are wrong, Tau Suck, because 'Road House!"

 Budikah wrote:
Silly post.

You really can't play this game out in sections like a vacuum. I stopped reading when the OP suggested that a Rune Priest would never make it close enough to use JoTWW. You are going to run out of space to flee eventually and not counting LoS restrctions as well...

It may be a giant anime fan robot but it certainly isn't invincible and it can certainly be caught.

Hi, you must be new to the internet.

Theorycrafting and mathhammer is always done in a one to one comparison, simply because you can't theorycraft around every eventuality. Take theorycrafting with a grain of salt.

Asmodai - you managed to miss the "roughly", there.

Scatter? Pfft, you get a 6" disembark, and given you've apparently clustered everything around your models I can drop in quite accurately.

Not hostility, just bemusement. Simultaneously your riptides are together, to avoid peoples centre line threats by being out of range, while also being separated, to counter RP. Youre always getting the 3++ when you need it, while also being able to kite 4D6" away.

It is an interesting way to get a point across. Highly ineffective, as you can probably see from the posts responding to your assertions

Or yet more fallacies from you? I love how you try to handwave away your appeal to authority (I havewon 23 games with DA!) as if it wasnt exatly that. Its just the tip of your fallacy iceberg.

I love how Asmodai has basically called everyone here thick in one way or another, yet then accuses everyone else of making personal attacks.

Seriously, that isn't how life works and it's not how the forums work. You'll only make a name for yourself as a douche doing that.

 liquidjoshi wrote:
I love how Asmodai has basically called everyone here thick in one way or another, yet then accuses everyone else of making personal attacks.

Seriously, that isn't how life works and it's not how the forums work. You'll only make a name for yourself as a douche doing that.

Implying isn't quite the same as explicitly calling someone out. Please post links to a quote where I explicitly call someone stupid, because saying their tactics are bad isn't quite the same thing.
Sorry if your feelings got hurt bro, but welcome to the internet!



Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Asmodai - you managed to miss the "roughly", there.

Scatter? Pfft, you get a 6" disembark, and given you've apparently clustered everything around your models I can drop in quite accurately.

Not hostility, just bemusement. Simultaneously your riptides are together, to avoid peoples centre line threats by being out of range, while also being separated, to counter RP. Youre always getting the 3++ when you need it, while also being able to kite 4D6" away.

It is an interesting way to get a point across. Highly ineffective, as you can probably see from the posts responding to your assertions

Or yet more fallacies from you? I love how you try to handwave away your appeal to authority (I havewon 23 games with DA!) as if it wasnt exatly that. Its just the tip of your fallacy iceberg.

Here's news nosferatu; You can change your deployment depending on the army you're facing! You don't always have to deploy the same way!

Not hostility? Your last post was pretty inflammatory, but it's nice to see you tone it down.

Okay then, my Riptides always fail their 3++ save and roll four 1s on their 4d6 roll. They're terribad, now go take stealth suit teams. Obviously I can't predict the outcomes of the dice, but we're thinking best-case scenario, because there is no point debating the worst-case scenario.

Please stop referring to this fallacy iceberg and start putting some substance in your posts. The winning games was a specific response to a single poster.

Where does a triple Riptide list (henceforth: Triptide) find room for multiple Railguns anyway..? The list Asmodean
has me imagining is 3 Riptides, 3 Hammerheads, and 2 squads of Fire Warriors crossing their fingers, hoping they don't get noticed. Rock solid. The funny thing is, even the max of 3 Railguns aren't going to reliably stop a single Land Raider. And what, then, are the odds of stopping 2? How about 3 with a PFG tucked inside? But let's not allow math to get in the way! Of course all 3 LR's will get popped turn one. I can almost see the Terminators and Marines now...stranded 64,000" away, wandering the countryside, hopelessly lost.

The price of the Riptide, not to mention Tau players' better judgment, means Triptide probably won't catch on in any significant way. But here's hoping it becomes the new go-to netlist for the next few months. While Triptide will be at least as easy to beat as Scythespam or Turkeytime, it should actually be a bit more fun to take apart.

Triptides don't like Orks..

Found that out last night

Sure, they bombard the crud out of them with pie-plates, but they just can't stop a Green Tide before it slams into the Tau lines, and their famed mobility doesn't count for much when they are bipping around a rapidly shrinking share of the table as the ladz close in. IG put out a far higher pie-plate to Tide ratio, and even they struggle to stop a good tide.

One even fell to grots. Now THAT's embarassing. Took them ages to bring it down, but they did it

BR to follow, at some point.

Ascalam wrote:One even fell to grots. Now THAT's embarassing. Took them ages to bring it down, but they did it .

Grots are S2, right? If that's the case, I don't think they can hurt a Riptide at T6 (unless the Runtherd was working OT?) That said, it'll usually be good enough to just hold one in place...

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Implying isn't quite the same as explicitly calling someone out. Please post links to a quote where I explicitly call someone stupid, because saying their tactics are bad isn't quite the same thing.
Sorry if your feelings got hurt bro, but welcome to the internet!

If you'd stop sounding so rude, we'd be less annoyed by you.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Here's news nosferatu; You can change your deployment depending on the army you're facing! You don't always have to deploy the same way!

Same goes for playing against Tau. I can have my valuable units out of sight of the Riptide, and just put cannon fodder in it's path.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Okay then, my Riptides always fail their 3++ save and roll four 1s on their 4d6 roll. They're terribad, now go take stealth suit teams. Obviously I can't predict the outcomes of the dice, but we're thinking best-case scenario, because there is no point debating the worst-case scenario.

There are points to thinking for both scenarios, as well as the average.
The way you "defend" [is that the right term for this?] the Riptide sounds very much like a 9-year-old fanboy sticking his fingers in his ears and yelling "You can't beat me, you can't beat me!" over and over.
And using sarcasm isn't helping.

whigwam wrote:Where does a triple Riptide list (henceforth: Triptide) find room for multiple Railguns anyway..? The list Asmodean
has me imagining is 3 Riptides, 3 Hammerheads, and 2 squads of Fire Warriors crossing their fingers, hoping they don't get noticed. Rock solid. The funny thing is, even the max of 3 Railguns aren't going to reliably stop a single Land Raider. And what, then, are the odds of stopping 2? How about 3 with a PFG tucked inside? But let's not allow math to get in the way! Of course all 3 LR's will get popped turn one. I can almost see the Terminators and Marines now...stranded 64,000" away, wandering the countryside, hopelessly lost.

The price of the Riptide, not to mention Tau players' better judgment, means Triptide probably won't catch on in any significant way. But here's hoping it becomes the new go-to netlist for the next few months. While Triptide will be at least as easy to beat as Scythespam or Turkeytime, it should actually be a bit more fun to take apart.

Hilarious post, made my day

Ascalam wrote:Triptides don't like Orks..

Found that out last night

Sure, they bombard the crud out of them with pie-plates, but they just can't stop a Green Tide before it slams into the Tau lines, and their famed mobility doesn't count for much when they are bipping around a rapidly shrinking share of the table as the ladz close in. IG put out a far higher pie-plate to Tide ratio, and even they struggle to stop a good tide.

One even fell to grots. Now THAT's embarassing. Took them ages to bring it down, but they did it

BR to follow, at some point.

Good ol' grots!

Selym, if you click edit at the top-right* of your post, you can amputate the extra bits.

 whigwam wrote:
Selym, if you click edit at the top-right* of your post, you can amputate the extra bits.

I knew that, I had to do something @home though, so I noted the double, clicked edit, did the stuff, sorted.
But thanks anyway

Heres news Asmodai: you are assuming a singular threat source, when competent people have more than 1.

Your opponent has centre line punch you need to stay away from, so you have to hug corners. They also have DP, so you want to spread out. There is also a decent amount of terrain on the table - more than you are used to playing with, apparently - so your LOS is blocked in certain lines.

You continue to ignore the odds of killing even a single LR, as you have apparently forgotten you dont get 3 TL S10 railguns in one slot any more. You have to take hammerheads.

So, please explain: how are you simultaneously killing 2LR, dealing with DP nasties (since you have so many issues with RP, there are plenty of other nasties you dont want to see) AND having the points left over to not lose 5/6 mission types - namely objective missions.

We're not saying only consider the worst case. You just ONLY consider the best case, which in a dice based game is an INCREDIBLY foolish way to argue as it ignores the ***Random*** element of the game. Try considering the *average* case - which is that in every average game of 6 turns you will lose at one wound to Novareactor, potentially 2.

That entirely screws your position of course, as none of your sketchy maths has actually considered this. It changes the picture somewhat.

Try this: avoid the massively defensive posture you have over this strong but not over strong Unit, take a deep breath and evaluate your own posts as others may see them.

Even more amusingly? You claim of a lack of substance, but consistently fail to actually provide any yourself. Since page one people have shown you your errors, poked enormous holes in your strategies and provided a fair number of counter points that you have just, simply, ignored or hand-waved away. Provide some of your own substance, or quit posting.

 Selym wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Implying isn't quite the same as explicitly calling someone out. Please post links to a quote where I explicitly call someone stupid, because saying their tactics are bad isn't quite the same thing.
Sorry if your feelings got hurt bro, but welcome to the internet!

If you'd stop sounding so rude, we'd be less annoyed by you.

Pretty much this.

No, wait, exactly this.

Man, there's a lot of anger in this thread.

Hospy wrote:
Man, there's a lot of anger in this thread.

Mm...

Well, the thread does involve some rage worthy things.

 Selym wrote:

Hospy wrote:
Man, there's a lot of anger in this thread.

Mm...

Well, the thread does involve some rage worthy things.

I don't see what multi-meltas have to do with rage

 Grey Templar wrote:
BS3 isn't that bad, especially if you are using templates.

Fermat's second to last therom:
As pie plate side increase, the BS needed to hit a target approaches zero