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 phantommaster wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
I would allow you this

Your Gretchin, realising that they are not tall enough to shoot over the wall, agree to give each other piggy backs. You may shoot as if they have a line of sight but your number of shots is reduced by half, due to the Gretchin not being able to hold their mate and fire a gun.

They also receive -1 to their BS skill as the Grethcin that they are being held by is rather puny and wobbles about an awful lot.

Or agree on a compromise ^

I've been good enough to allow that THERE IS NO COMPROMISE!!!!!!!!!

 Kingsley wrote:
Extremely obviously modeling for advantage, to the point where I would actually call over a judge if I saw it at a GT.

I'm a pretty lenient guy, but modeling something so that units can interact with it in a fundamentally different manner that favors you is nearly the definition of modelling for advantage.

Agreed.

The ADL is a specific model defined as a Battlefield Debris (Defence Line).

I think what you're building is not an ADL but a Barricade; you still get the 4+ cover but only +1 if you GtG.

BUT, if you opponent is OK with you treating it as an ADL, then who are we to argue!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and if it's a Barricade, you can't buy a QG

Alternatively you just use the Lobba batteries and you don't have to use LOS for firing.

Otherwise it's pretty clearly modeling for advantage. The ADL has a specific height and gretchin have a clear cut maximum height as far as the models are concerned. Changing either of these effects how they interact with it in terms of the TLOS system we have in 40k.

I'd let you do it in a friendly game, but at a tournament I think you'd be SOL.

By the logic of an aegis defence line and line of sight/line of fire, a marine can't fire over an aegis unless his gun is modelled so that he is holding it in the air above his head.

Or, we can stop being silly. The aegis has bulletholes in it, and slit's on the highest part's that are viewing points. A grot can't see over the very top, but can see through the holes and viewing point's of the model, ergo, i'd say it can do it no problem. Put the big gun, on the tall bit's, and the grot's, on the shortest bit's of the line, and they can see just fine

 Evileyes wrote:
By the logic of an aegis defence line and line of sight/line of fire, a marine can't fire over an aegis unless his gun is modelled so that he is holding it in the air above his head.

Or, we can stop being silly. The aegis has bulletholes in it, and slit's on the highest part's that are viewing points. A grot can't see over the very top, but can see through the holes and viewing point's of the model, ergo, i'd say it can do it no problem. Put the big gun, on the tall bit's, and the grot's, on the shortest bit's of the line, and they can see just fine

Reductio Ad Absurdum, (possibly) intentionally getting the rule wrong then an attempt to pass your opinion on as fact?
LOS is determined by the "models eye view". You remember the picture of classy ward pretending to be a space marine with lines coming out of his eyes, right?

 Evileyes wrote:
By the logic of an aegis defence line and line of sight/line of fire, a marine can't fire over an aegis unless his gun is modelled so that he is holding it in the air above his head.

No, because LoS is drawn from the eyes. But yes, my opponents claim cover for their guys from the Aegis even when my shooters are in base contact with it but on the higher sections of the wall, with the slits. Sigh. Makes Aegis quite crap for any direct-firing units. Which in terms of BT infantry is obviously everyone, and for SM infantry everyone except Sternguard shooting cover-ignoring rounds.

As long as your opponent agrees with you there is no problem.
Why not just put a whole lot of crates in a row behind the ADL to create a firing step that the Grots can stand on to see over. This way you are not modelling for advantage.

Sounds like a cool little project 

 vim_the_good wrote:
As long as your opponent agrees with you there is no problem.
Why not just put a whole lot of crates in a row behind the ADL to create a firing step that the Grots can stand on to see over. This way you are not modelling for advantage.

Well, by definition it's just as much MFA as making a custom defense line. You're altering the model to gain an advantage.

With that said, I wouldn't mind playing against a line like that myself.

I've got a custom defence line for my demons - it's pretty close to the aegis, and if anything slightly smaller so no modelling for advantage. However, if anyone picks me up on it (very rare) all I do is roll my eyes and pull out the boring 'standard' one that I bring along as well and use that.

It does mean having to take two lines along, but saves arguments.

the rules lawyers are always going to tell you no...it's what they do. And it probably wouldn't fly at a tourney

If you were across the table from me and broke out an orky looking grot sized ADL

1 - I'd say that's freakin cool! Let's do this!
2 - You're playing Orkz...outdated Orkz...toss the squig a bone. (if you did this with rapecrons or wardian knights, I'd tell you to go pound sand)
3 - I would ask for one addendum. any lager-than-grot sized models behind the line only get to use it as standard 5-6+ cover save

If people can make guys crouching legally I don't see why you can't model a Gretchen on his tip toes?

Are you sure he can't see if you put them right where 2 aegis line pieces meet?

And i was told on the bastions that as long as it has the same amount of fire slots you could model them where you want. There is no rule against custom models as long it is the same size or bigger than the original. Why can you not put the fire port where you want?

Your telling me you wouldn't allow this?

http://spyrle.blogspot.com/2012/08/eldar-aegis-defense-line-finished.html

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/486911.page

or the orc one in this post?

http://forums.bluegrassgamers.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=6783


And are you all saying this guy can't even use this? b/c there are no gun slot like the original aegis. I hope TO would SLAP YOU and say it is silly every race is using an Imperial gun line --- get over it RULES LAWYER that so fits his race.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/491104.page

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?364612-Eldar-aegis-defense-line


I wouldn't have a problem with this:

http://40kaddict.blogspot.com/2012/10/nids-part-60-terrain-is-everything.html

The Tyranids can't use a quad gun but that just plain is awesome and should be allowed. I think it is silly to have every race using imperial models never felt right.



So your gonna tell this guy he can't use this bc the firing slots are the exact height of the original bastion? This was featured in White Dwarf. You think they a note under it BTW you can't use this?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/267497.page

I can't even believe you all. Shame, shame, shame, shame on you all. Hangs his head low.

People disagreeing with you does not make them rules lawyers.

Please remember rule 1

There is no rule in the rulebook allowing you to alter the supplied citadel miniature. Basic rules. Most people accept ruloe of cool but with modelling for advantage thrown in - and this is clearly the latter.

As a TO we always have the rule that converted models are assumed to be the standard model for LOS purposes, so people can make cool models b ut without being penalised or gaining advantage from this.

If we were to say that: "No, a grot can't use a regular ADL because they are too short (shortism, lengthism?) and would hinder their LoS, nor can they use a scratch or custom built one because that would be MFA (instead of viewing it as a cool conversion and something that benefits not only the game but the hobby as a whole)" I wonder what those people would say about ordinary IG units behind an ADL. If LoS is what is required, then how the heck would these squating guys go about using an ADL?
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440249a&prodId=prod1080043
They can't possibly see anything and I have still found myself on the other side of the table from IG-players with heavy weapons behind an ADL claiming both cover and LoS.

And since some of the players claiming that all Forgeworld should be ok, are these guys firing from a higher position than a grot?
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Guard/Death-Korps-of-Krieg/DEATH_KORPS_OF_KRIEG_INFANTRY_AND_ACCESSORIES/DEATH-KORPS-OF-KRIEG-HEAVY-STUBBER-TEAM-1.html
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Guard/Death-Korps-of-Krieg/DEATH_KORPS_OF_KRIEG_INFANTRY_AND_ACCESSORIES/DEATH-KORPS-OF-KRIEG-LASCANNON-TEAM-1.html

And if that isn't close enough... how the heck would these guys be of any use behind... well... anything?
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440249a&prodId=prod1080055

There is something that is called RAI, there is something called "the spirit of the game", there is something called using ones senses. In 40K, as in every game, hell as in life itself, there are things that doesn't add up 100%. Sometimes we have to fudge things, sometimes we have to bend reality, rules and what is written just a little so that we can get on with things and let stuff run smoothly. Calling a ref because someone has made a cool custom wall for some grots.Sheeesh... I think this is why the casual, non competitive, beer and pretzel gamer and the competitive, tournament, WAMC will never see eye to eye when it comes to this hobby.

Agusto

ps: Mythra, I applaud you! That is my own point exactly... only you phrased yourself and found better images than I ever would have.

If we can post without the name calling please.

Thank you.

Considering that we are talking about height difference so slight that it could be covered by just basing your models slightly differently*, I'd be perfectly fine with this. I'd however expect you to model awesome grot-made scrap barricade.

(* Many people model all sort of crap on the bases of their models, and there are a shitton of manufacturers for scenic bases. Many of these add few millimetres to your models height. Also, just posing you model slightly differently will affect it's height this much.)

nosferatu1001 wrote:
People disagreeing with you does not make them rules lawyers.

Please remember rule 1

There is no rule in the rulebook allowing you to alter the supplied citadel miniature. Basic rules. Most people accept ruloe of cool but with modelling for advantage thrown in - and this is clearly the latter.

As a TO we always have the rule that converted models are assumed to be the standard model for LOS purposes, so people can make cool models b ut without being penalised or gaining advantage from this.

TLR version..."I'm not a rules lawyer, and here is a rule I just made up to prove it"

I needed a good laugh, thank you

all this over a guy trying to make reasonable use of the worst unit in the entire game.

One thing though, Dakkamite. What we here in Dakka think really doesn't matter. You should ask the people who you're actually playing with.


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nosferatu1001 wrote:

There is no rule in the rulebook allowing you to alter the supplied citadel miniature.

There is also no rule for allowing you to assemble them. There is however modelling section in BRB that tells you how to do that, it also tells you how to alter them...

I thought artillery uses the gun barrel for LOS. I don't have any of the Big Gunz models but surely they can reach over the ADL.

I'd play against it regardless. As long I can can shoot you while you're behind it then we'd be fine.

You should model grot 'cat flaps' on it

What i'd love to see, is some grot's with one of these...



Little grot periscope.
Though, if were gonna say that grot's cannot see or be seen over the ADL, doesn't it stand to reason they could't be shot -at- behind the line? Heck, if people are gonna pull the "Grot's can't see over the line" trick, then say fine, wrap your aegis tightly around an objective, and stick the grot's inside, where they are immune to shooting from all but the tallest models, or barrage.

But yeah. Put sand on your base, and you are a millimetre or so higher, enough to just see over. If someone calls you on it, they are just trying way to hard to find ways to deny you the game.

The ADL has slits in it. Are you 100% sure they can't draw LOS through them?

This kind of question, though, is why whenever I use an ADL it's going to just be the official model. Army-specific versions are a cool conversion opportunity, but at least if you use one out of the box there can be no disputes over modelling for advantage, WYSIWYG, etc.

More then anything I think your just looking for people to agree with you and you dont really care about the good reasons on the other side of that.

If you use grots and they cannot see over the walls use something else. Orks could see over the walls, so there you go. If you model a short wall that messes with LOS then you are modeling for advantage even if you are not doing it with that intent.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also you could take the wall and leave it as high as it is, but cut down certain areas, so you could both have a regular wall that is WYSIWYG and can still be used by grots.

Rotgut, by your definition of the rules concerning the ADL, then the IG-heavy weapon teams that I posted pictures of (since they CLEARLY couldn't see over the walls) would, according to you, also be disqualified for the use of the fortifications, or? Just to be clear, yes or no? Because if one kind of model with a LoS from closer to the ground would be disallowed I think, in the spirit of fairness, that ALL models with low LoS should be punished.

Agusto

Agusto wrote:
Rotgut, by your definition of the rules concerning the ADL, then the IG-heavy weapon teams that I posted pictures of (since they CLEARLY couldn't see over the walls) would, according to you, also be disqualified for the use of the fortifications, or? Just to be clear, yes or no? Because if one kind of model with a LoS from closer to the ground would be disallowed I think, in the spirit of fairness, that ALL models with low LoS should be punished.

Agusto

I havent really followed the thread, just commented on the original post and skipped through a few argumentative posts. The links I clicked on that you posted has a guy sitting up taller that would be seen even if the guy laying down could not so it could still be targeted as both of them are one unit. I dont know that weapon teams can even use an ADL, if they cant there is zero reason to bring them up, if they can fair enough. LOS is from the eyes of the model or the gun? Either way if you are going from the laying down model/gun why would you put it behind a wall, it couldnt fire through anyway? I dont really know what your question is since you wouldnt put a laying down sniper or anything similiar behind a wall since it couldnt fire. All the ADL is, is a wall correct?

if the ADL didnt have a specific model then sure no dramas...
sadly no... i cant field an "epic" version of a thunderhawk and call it the real thing same for a titan.... 40k has specific models and rules that apply for them....
now as has been said, its just battlefield junk.. that give a +1 better cover save when GTG behind it.. (wait just realised you cant position battlefield debree to your advantage like an ADL) yeah no sorry no can do, unless i can field the epic version of titans for cover saves

You could just have a defense line with vertical slits in it rather than the horizontal ones, you could then draw los for big guns using those.

The reason I asked is because some of the models that GW produces are posed and positioned in different ways. So for the sake of debate, and since there are some people here who claims that it is reeeeally important that a model physically should be able to look over the top, are we really boiling down to, not "modelling to advantage" but " buying models to advantage"? "40k has specific models and rules that apply for them.... " has been said. Should we then have different rulings, not depending on the unit or troop type, but on the actual sculpt of the model?
As an example:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440249a&prodId=prod1070138
Should the model on the right be allowed to fire over a wall while the model to the left wouldn't? And let us not begin with all the issues that could be caused if I would happen to like some variation in my force and have a model with a sniper rifle in my CCS that is lying down like this:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440249a&prodId=prod1070135
As I stated before, there has to (or rather it is my personal opinion that there should) be some leeway, some freedom of thought and imagination when it comes to the actual physical models on the table and the living, moving units they are supposed to be representing. Otherwise we should have a new FAQ from GW derived from Plato's (and Socrates') Theory of Forms.

Yes, this is a grey area and we have all seen clear cases on modelling to ones advantage but a grot ADL is not (in my book, again) such a terrible thing.

Like one guy said too - there are plenty of bases that would put you over also and decorative bases are not illegal.

Agusto I see where you are coming from completely. Though the issue here is the OP is choosing to make an item that already has an official product.

The grots are to short for an ADL. He can easily change the way the firing ports are like others have said, could add debris to the bases to make the models stand a little taller, or use a different unit that can use the ADL. Heck he could just say in friendly games that the grots can shoot out, and the other player can shoot back.

What it comes down to is if hes playing friendly games or in a tournament. I dont think bringing up kneeling models really matters, like I said I dont know if heavy weapon teams can use an ADL, but with the snipers I would still play it as WYSIWYG, if they cant see over a wall or through a wall why put them there in the first place?