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 BattleCapIronblood wrote:
I want to share an interesting experience I had a while back with a friend and the 40k Universe. I hope you guys bare with me and read on.
So one day I was sitting in the local library with a few friends, just chatting and the such. I got up and walked around the books for a bit, when I came across a Warhammer 40000 book. It was the Blood Ravens Omnibus, Dawn of War. I grabbed it and went to show my friends.
(Keep in mind that I'm the only 40k fan in my immediate group of friends.)
They asked me what the book was all about, and I decided that to give them a brief background info on the universe, I read the little story that comes on the first page of almost all Black Library books and W40K related articles, such as the rulebook. When I came to the part about the God-Emperor and his worship, one of my friends, who happens to be a Mormon, demanded I stop. Out of respect for him, I did. Later he asked me to never bring up this series again, and to please refrain from speaking about it in front of him. I must clarify that I was not taken aback from his request, and simply complied.
So it got me thinking: are there any people out there who play the games, read the books or do anything 40k related that still maintain their religious aspects of life? Personally, I'm a Catholic, and though I love how much fun the lore is, I don't go around preaching the word of the Emperor (well, unless its with certain company like other fans)
Has anybody else that you know been offended by this material? How have you handled it? I'd like to hear from the community on this matter, and I don't mean to start any religious rants or anything, I just wonder if anyone's gone through the same thing I have.

I've gamed with quite a few folks with strong religious beliefs (from many different faiths) and even a few Mormons, but I've never encountered anything like this. I don't mind respecting my friend's religious beliefs, but at the same time, I expect some degree of reasonability. If we're out having pizza, sure, I'll avoid the subject. If we're in the game store, then it's unreasonable of him not to expect me to talk about gaming related subjects. Especially a mainstream game like 40k.

An unusual occurrence, to be sure, but not a big hiccup really.

Matney X wrote:

she didn't back down until I asked if she was the same kind of Atheist that shot up the kids in Columbine.

Aside from there being very little (other than in the Christian media) about whether the two perpetrators of the Columbine massacre were atheists or not, I guess the "kind" of atheist you're referring to is:

"The kind that was remorselessly bullied into submission and sustained heavy psychological damage."

I'm fairly apathetic on the religious debate, but please use facts.

 PunkNeverDie110 wrote:

I gave 'em chances, believe me, but it's like they enjoy be disrespectful towards us. I dunno, I'll follow your tip though

This is in your house? Ask them to leave. Seriously, they're being dicks. I'm an atheist, but I don't go people's church meetings telling them how stupid that whole god-worshipping-business is. It the game offends them so much, they should just leave.

40k is fairly offensive. Just as players who don't bathe and players that use the profanity laced rants to describe every possible move, die roll or even to order pizza. I always feel a little a little funny purchasing a $50 book of which I could fit all of the useful information on 2 sheets of paper front and back. If you've ever read the Grey Knights book (this was pointed out to me) it goes on and on in gratuitous detail about extreme physical and sexual violence that the grey knights have performed in their personal crusade. That's why I don't read the books. I play the game. The game is fairly benign. I have some good friends that I like to hang out with, but if you began reading something like the excerpt out of the GK book, where the GK are raping and murdering the SoB, I'd tell you to stop. If you began using profane language (everyother word) in describing something to me, I'd ask you to stop. Extreme violence and sexual acts described in detail or portrayed on film, in literature, etc. does affect people negatively. If nothing else, it desensitizes you to further degradation. I'd ask you to stop. Most christians, Mormons included, who truly believe in their convictions, don't want to be around things that pull them away from those convictions. If I believe drugs and alcohol hurt people, I don't go hang out at a bar or with people who abuse drugs in an alley etc. Your friend maybe didn't portray this to you tactfully, but that's probably all he really meant by what he said.

GW has made it very clear that they are trying to shock and awe or offend others as each coex/army book is more gratuitous in its descriptions. I've stopped reading the fluff altogether. I don't know what the BL books are like because i've never read them, but they may be worse for all I know.
Show some empathy for your friend's sensibilities and he can do the same and you can both get a long, even if you don't play the same game or have the same opinions.

What is the difference between warhammer lore and religion? No point arguing over whos fiction is more accurate.
Both are just stories based around poorly written rulebooks that are full of glaring contradictions and errors.

Ok, I want to get involved in this thread.

Firstly, and as an aside, I'm pretty certain that the number of the beast is commonly (wrongly) acknowledged as 666, when it is in fact 616. Can't remember exactly where I heard that though, so it may be wrong.

Secondly, the OP raises and interesting point.

If your friend is so offended by such setting/ lore/ story ect. he has the right, and the ability to remove himself from it. He can chose to ignore what you say, he can change the subject, and he can even physically remove himself from the group if he doesn't like the conversation. Why does it fall on you to change your behaviour to suit him and his beliefs? It is HIM who has the problem, so why should he ask you to refrain from discussing it? This, is in general, my problem with religious groups, (and oft society in general), that they try to alter the behaviour patterns of others to suit their beliefs, rather than altering themselves to the situation.

Not sure Im expressing that clearly tbh. If someone was enjoying something that perhaps I didn't like, what right do I have to ask them to change to suit my perspective? Unless the activity is illegal, or dangerous, why should I expect someone else to change to meet my needs, when in fact I am the one who should be changing to meet the needs of the group?

 DeliriumDive wrote:
What is the difference between warhammer lore and religion? No point arguing over whos fiction is more accurate.
Both are just stories based around poorly written rulebooks that are full of glaring contradictions and errors.

Nice first post...

On topic: I'm a Christian myself. When I started I didn't really know the fiction all that well, but kind of wanted to model my Space Wolves army after my own beliefs (kind of like the thread about atheist Space Marine chapters, which is how I knew what the guy's motivations were). However, I very quickly decided that 40k's just fun fiction. It's not based in our world, and therefore there's no reason to put modern religious belief into it. It's fantasy. Getting worked up over it is just silly.

buckero0 wrote:
40k is fairly offensive. Just as players who don't bathe and players that use the profanity laced rants to describe every possible move, die roll or even to order pizza. I always feel a little a little funny purchasing a $50 book of which I could fit all of the useful information on 2 sheets of paper front and back. If you've ever read the Grey Knights book (this was pointed out to me) it goes on and on in gratuitous detail about extreme physical and sexual violence that the grey knights have performed in their personal crusade. That's why I don't read the books. I play the game. The game is fairly benign. I have some good friends that I like to hang out with, but if you began reading something like the excerpt out of the GK book, where the GK are raping and murdering the SoB, I'd tell you to stop. If you began using profane language (everyother word) in describing something to me, I'd ask you to stop. Extreme violence and sexual acts described in detail or portrayed on film, in literature, etc. does affect people negatively. If nothing else, it desensitizes you to further degradation. I'd ask you to stop. Most christians, Mormons included, who truly believe in their convictions, don't want to be around things that pull them away from those convictions. If I believe drugs and alcohol hurt people, I don't go hang out at a bar or with people who abuse drugs in an alley etc. Your friend maybe didn't portray this to you tactfully, but that's probably all he really meant by what he said.

I hope you never come to central Scotland to play a game if profane language upsets you, you wouldn't last long. I don't mean that in any kind of belittling manner, but you need to appreciate the social context of where you are and why people are they way they are, Here in Scotland, especially in the more "poor" areas, violence and profane language are a part of life. I know people who use a swear word every second word in a sentence. They don't mean anything offensive by it, it is simply a consequence of how/ where they were raised.

Finally, I find it deeply ironic that you abhor violence, and yet play a game where the overall objective is genocide. Yes, every game of 40k is about killing the opposing army to the last man/ space elf/ walking fungus man

 Crimson wrote:

This is in your house? Ask them to leave. Seriously, they're being dicks. I'm an atheist, but I don't go people's church meetings telling them how stupid that whole god-worshipping-business is. It the game offends them so much, they should just leave.

yeah, neighbors, and plus they're friends with my parents.
Eh, I can't do really much, I'm seventeen so I still live with my mom, thus I can't kick 'em out. Sometimes, though, I wish I could...

I'm a Christian and I play 40k. It's just a game is why the violence doesn't bother me. It's not real. Same for the fiction. I will say however that on occasion some of the fluff does make me a lite uncomfortable. Usually for fiction I read Robert jorden, dragon age, forgitten realms. Stuff like that. It was a similar adjustment when the Steve Erickson novels were pointed out. He goes into details that for me personally are a little over the top, but over all the series was interesting. It wasn't Robert jorden interesting but it was ok. As far as bad language goes I don't fault others for using it, I don't care for it but generally I don't say anything becuase it doesn't solve anything. I simply ignore it. I don't use it and it gets noticed by those I game with in a positive way.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Many people arn't aware what real witchcraft is and to label Harry Potter as anything close to it is naive.

Having seen real Wickens I know what the real thing is sorta like. Not pretty.

"Real witchcraft"


Honestly, topics like this make me glad I live in the UK. Religion is still a thing here, but it's usually considered impolite to wave it in people's faces, and most of the religious people tend to be "culturally religious" and so aren't equipped to be maddening argumentative anti-science whackaloons like some of the fanatics can be. You'll still occasionally run across a parent or grandparent who takes the whole thing very seriously and doesn't want their precious wee Timmy playing with daemons, but they're outliers to the point that even their precious wee Timmy reacts to such talk with a knowing roll of the eyes.

You can't talk to that sort of person anyway, let them take their offense and go off in a huff if they like, it's not a battle worth winning, better to save the unpleasant confrontations for times where they're unfortunately necessary like when those people decide to "take offense" at Evolution being taught in schools or the like.

Wow, I read again this post page and... no, GK didn't rape the SoB. They killed them, yes, and it was over the top for me too, but raped... no.
Please, don't see ghosts where there aren't.

buckero0 wrote:
40k is fairly offensive. Just as players who don't bathe and players that use the profanity laced rants to describe every possible move, die roll or even to order pizza. I always feel a little a little funny purchasing a $50 book of which I could fit all of the useful information on 2 sheets of paper front and back. If you've ever read the Grey Knights book (this was pointed out to me) it goes on and on in gratuitous detail about extreme physical and sexual violence that the grey knights have performed in their personal crusade. quote]

ummm, dude. have you read any Grey Knight books? Black Library or Codex?

Clearly not because there isn't a bit of sex anywhere. Violence yes, sex no.

Some BL books do have sex, but it never concerns marines and I have yet to read anything that was offensivly graphic. Just your typical gritty novel sex scenes are what I have read.

Sex is completely absent from GWs rulebooks and codices.


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 Yodhrin wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Many people arn't aware what real witchcraft is and to label Harry Potter as anything close to it is naive.

Having seen real Wickens I know what the real thing is sorta like. Not pretty.

"Real witchcraft"

Real as it gets any way. Where I grew up there are quite a few real Witches and Satanic Cults around the area. No, nothing like portrayed in a movie is going on because its not like what is in a movie.

Do they perform rituals that would turn any reasonable person sick, yeah. Are they actually doing anything like summoning daemons? probably not but I'd rather not find out.


Witches and Satanic Cults are very real things, just different from what people normally think of.

buckero0 wrote:
If you've ever read the Grey Knights book (this was pointed out to me) it goes on and on in gratuitous detail about extreme physical and sexual violence that the grey knights have performed in their personal crusade.

Come again? You should probably try reading it rather than taking someone else's word for things.

Sexual violence?

There is not a single codex with any type of Space Marine that I have found that even hints at anything sexual. I have actually been wondering whether the Space Marines, modified as they are, would still A) have any sexual urges at all and B) have the necessary bits to act upon those urges still.
This hasn't even been hinted towards. Not even once.

Even when you read about Slaanesh, the evil God of pleasure you have to read between the lines to get that they most probably do a bit of pokin' chokin and strokin... on people that would probably prefer if they didn. If you get my meaning.
It says explicitly that they walk around loving the blood they bathe in and all the pain they put their victims through... but nowhere does it ever say that they rape.

The Warhammer texts shy away from anything sexual.

Well, if we took Rape in its more generic meaning it would be an apt description. Rape doesn't just mean an act of sexual violence.

Heck, the Rapture is called that because of the original meaning "To take away by force".

Its the more common use of the word, but not the only use of the word.

But to the specific issue, no there is little to no sex in warhammer 40k. Slannesh is about self-gratification to the most extreme, which includes sex but not just sex. It also includes gluttony, perfection in everything you do, etc... You could easily be a painter and follow him that way, by trying to create the most outlandish and perfect paintings ever to stimulate all the senses.

I work in a department store in Edinburgh. One day a well dressed middle age woman approached me at the tills and asked if she could ask something, Thinking that it was an enquiry about a product I said yes. This is what she said;
"Do you realise that you are playing the devil's music?" . Now, like any other shop we have background music, plain old pop music. Now because we always have to be polite to customers even when they are being rude/crazy/plain bonkers, I just said "I'll pass your comment along to the managers". Which I did, much to the manager's amusement.
Meanwhile, I was raging inside that someone could have such a warped idea solely because of belief. Religion should not be like that, where everything in everyday life seems to be about seeing the devil in everything. Religion should not be about fear; if it is, it is wrong.
1) I honestly don't think the church forgave us for learning to read back in medieval times, they even tried to stop it, because the people found out 'our betters' were a little bit corrupt and less than economical with the truth.
2) Religion is pretty good at causing wars. Infact it has probably killed more people than anything else. A rulebook about a fictional universe hasn't to to the best of my knowledge.
3) Religion doesn't like freewill. It'd rather tell you how your will should be their will.
4) By all means believe in a religion if you want to, but please do not try and impose your belief on others.
5) It's all about power, isn't it? Oh! and money also.

Slipstream wrote:
I work in a department store in Edinburgh. One day a well dressed middle age woman approached me at the tills and asked if she could ask something, Thinking that it was an enquiry about a product I said yes. This is what she said;
"Do you realise that you are playing the devil's music?" . Now, like any other shop we have background music, plain old pop music. Now because we always have to be polite to customers even when they are being rude/crazy/plain bonkers, I just said "I'll pass your comment along to the managers". Which I did, much to the manager's amusement.
Meanwhile, I was raging inside that someone could have such a warped idea solely because of belief. Religion should not be like that, where everything in everyday life seems to be about seeing the devil in everything. Religion should not be about fear; if it is, it is wrong.
1) I honestly don't think the church forgave us for learning to read back in medieval times, they even tried to stop it, because the people found out 'our betters' were a little bit corrupt and less than economical with the truth.
2) Religion is pretty good at causing wars. Infact it has probably killed more people than anything else. A rulebook about a fictional universe hasn't to to the best of my knowledge.
3) Religion doesn't like freewill. It'd rather tell you how your will should be their will.
4) By all means believe in a religion if you want to, but please do not try and impose your belief on others.
5) It's all about power, isn't it? Oh! and money also.

Well... did you realise you were playing the devil's music?

Well, considering that I like Hawkwind, Blue Oyster Cult etc, I'm fairly certain pop music originates from somewhere, you know, to specifically torment us!

 Purifier wrote:

A) have any sexual urges at all and B) have the necessary bits to act upon those urges still.

Ot:
a) yes, they have those urges. They are filled by testosterone, I'm not kiddin', one of the Marine augmentation is that;
b) Mhmh, yeah the 99% of the Chapters live a monk life style, so they usually repress those urges. But, Ragnar Blackmane for example did uh... act upon them. Yeah. Well, on the other hand Wolves aren't the 99% of the chapters

Slipstream wrote:

2) Religion is pretty good at causing wars. Infact it has probably killed more people than anything else.

I'd argue communism did that.

 Blaggard wrote:

Slipstream wrote:

2) Religion is pretty good at causing wars. Infact it has probably killed more people than anything else.

I'd argue communism did that.

Wow. That's giving communism a whole lot of credit it doesn't deserve.

 Griddlelol wrote:

Matney X wrote:

she didn't back down until I asked if she was the same kind of Atheist that shot up the kids in Columbine.

Aside from there being very little (other than in the Christian media) about whether the two perpetrators of the Columbine massacre were atheists or not, I guess the "kind" of atheist you're referring to is:

"The kind that was remorselessly bullied into submission and sustained heavy psychological damage."

I'm fairly apathetic on the religious debate, but please use facts.

And that's what I'm getting at. In my mind, it's just as offensive to link ANYONE to the Columbine shooting as it is to link any other theist to 9/11. I am no more a militant Islamic jihadist than she is whatever they were.

Also, I'm only getting my facts from Wikipedia, but it looks like they haven't found -any- justification for the shooting, though there was evidence the two were bullied for years. Likewise, I didn't realize that the whole, "Do you believe in God," scenario may not have happened at all. Like I said, I live in Salt Lake City and our media is incredibly biased. In 1999, I was too busy trying to get laid or playing video games to put much effort into researching current events.

So, I apologize if I unfairly linked anyone to such a tragedy based on a loose religious commonality.

Its something GW just doesn't touch one way or the other.

My personal take on the fluff is that,

1) Marines do still have all their parts and would be physically capable of sex.

2) The mental reconditioning basically wipes their sex drive, they feel no urge to reproduce.

3) The genetic alteration and transformation process renders them sterile, not on purpose but rather a side effect. so no children would result from a coupling.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Purifier wrote:

 Blaggard wrote:

Slipstream wrote:

2) Religion is pretty good at causing wars. Infact it has probably killed more people than anything else.

I'd argue communism did that.

Wow. That's giving communism a whole lot of credit it doesn't deserve.

How many millions of people did Stalin kill?

How about WW1 and WW2. How many millions there?

How about the Roman conquest of Europe.

Compare this to what? The crusades? the inquisition? Not even close.

Islamic Extremists are trying their darndest but they still can't match it.

Ok, the last 2 weren't communisim but Religion hasn't racked up the largest death toll overall.

Matney X wrote:

And that's what I'm getting at. In my mind, it's just as offensive to link ANYONE to the Columbine shooting as it is to link any other theist to 9/11. I am no more a militant Islamic jihadist than she is whatever they were.

Oh I completely agree. I see we're on the same page. It's rather silly to make broad sweeping statements about how someone acts like that. Atheist doesn't always mean rational as your friend showed out.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

 Blaggard wrote:

Slipstream wrote:

2) Religion is pretty good at causing wars. Infact it has probably killed more people than anything else.

I'd argue communism did that.

Wow. That's giving communism a whole lot of credit it doesn't deserve.

How many millions of people did Stalin kill?

How about WW1 and WW2. How many millions there?

How about the Roman conquest of Europe.

Compare this to what? The crusades? the inquisition? Not even close.


Islamic Extremists are trying their darndest but they still can't match it.

From Wikipedia: The Black Death was one of the most devastating pandemics in human history, peaking in Europe between 1348 and 1350, and killing between 75 million and 200 million people.
And to have something to compare it with, The Black Book of Communism estimates 94 million dead under communist rule. Of course, it should be noted that The Black Book of Communism is an INCREDIBLY biased piece of work, and it lists things such as pandemics and famine as the sole responsibility of communism, so long as it happened under communist rule.

Plus, most of the time what is being called communism is generally fascist totalitarianism. But that makes sense, since communism is a completely unsustainable ideal.

Either way, we're drifting off topic.

Religious people and WH40k. GO!

Indeed, i'm just a little peeved by people saying religion was an egregious contributer to world death tolls.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Indeed, i'm just a little peeved by people saying religion was an egregious contributer to world death tolls.

Of wars started, religion has always been a very prominent reason to spark the flame.
In my opinion, it doesn't matter a bit, because if those people didn't have religion to fight over, they'd find something else.
Big enders and little enders.

Just like how I believe if the OP's friend didn't have his religion to get incredibly insulted about, then he'd have something else.

I don't find "christians" to be a very good blanket, nor "religious people."
What I don't like are extremists of any kind. Left wing, right wing, religious or anti religious. They get all of us into trouble and that's bothersome to me.

 Purifier wrote:

I don't find "christians" to be a very good blanket, nor "religious people."
What I don't like are extremists of any kind. Left wing, right wing, religious or anti religious. They get all of us into trouble and that's bothersome to me.

TL;DR: live and let live.

IIRC some religious people do observe rules a bit more than others. Worship is so sacred to some that they don't wish to witness any fictional services. The mormons built a temple here a few years back and asked the construction workers to refrain from swearing on the job. Not that they posted monitors to enforce it, just a polite request that you remember it will be a place of worship and you wouldn't swear there when it was finished either.

 Griddlelol wrote:

Matney X wrote:

And that's what I'm getting at. In my mind, it's just as offensive to link ANYONE to the Columbine shooting as it is to link any other theist to 9/11. I am no more a militant Islamic jihadist than she is whatever they were.

Oh I completely agree. I see we're on the same page. It's rather silly to make broad sweeping statements about how someone acts like that. Atheist doesn't always mean rational as your friend showed out.

Oh, good. I didn't want to get much farther into this.

I try to avoid broad statements, but it's not something I'm even close to perfect about. We as humans are emotional people, which makes rationality difficult -- had I not been likened to mass murderers, I don't think I would have ever done the same thing in retaliation.

(Lordy, I need to stop using words bigger than three syllables -- it's starting to bother me.)