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A pre-order disparity?

Microsoft wrote:Since unveiling our plans for Xbox One, my team and I have heard directly from many of you, read your comments and listened to your feedback. I would like to take the opportunity today to thank you for your assistance in helping us to reshape the future of Xbox One.

You told us how much you loved the flexibility you have today with games delivered on disc. The ability to lend, share, and resell these games at your discretion is of incredible importance to you. Also important to you is the freedom to play offline, for any length of time, anywhere in the world.

So, today I am announcing the following changes to Xbox One and how you can play, share, lend, and resell your games exactly as you do today on Xbox 360.

Yusuf Mehdi ( CVP, Marketing & Strategy, XBOX / Interactive Entertainment Microsoft Corp.) even said "No point in winning a show, because the test will be the consumer. In the long run our console will win." NOW, he said on his Twitter feed: "Thanks to each of you that took time to share feedback on Xbox One & how we can improve. These updates are for you."

This is further supported by Microsoft's press statement after switching around on the DRM policies.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2013/jun/19/xbox-one-drm-second-hand-restrictions-abandoned

Microsoft wrote:We have listened and we have heard loud and clear from your feedback that you want the best of both worlds.

Thank you again for your candid feedback. Our team remains committed to listening, taking feedback and delivering a great product for you later this year.

http://news.xbox.com/2013/06/update

What you just said directly contradicts why Microsoft said they changed the policy. They said they changed it due to feedback, and this has largely been reflected in the press, going both ways, with editorials in effect "blaming" consumers for raising too much of a ruckus and damning a digital-era that they failed to understand, and news stories highlighting the effect that community outcry had upon the product.

http://www.techspot.com/news/51227-sony-applies-for-rfid-drm-patent-that-would-block-used-games.html

And of course Sony changed their minds in the board rooms, with patents existing for similar technology and standing essentially on the edge of implementing identical DRM policies as the Xbox One.


http://www.nowgamer.com/news/1943920/sony_microsoft_are_listening_to_used_game_drm_criticism.html

Well it seems the mass outcry of we fans has caused the [REDACTION!] of most of their stupid concepts and idea, now if we can only get rid of the "need" for Kinect, guess that's for the second wave of hate mail eh?

 TedNugent wrote:
A pre-order disparity?

How there were so many more PS4 pre-orders than XBone pre-orders. That disparity. You didn’t miss that did you?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:
A pre-order disparity?

How there were so many more PS4 pre-orders than XBone pre-orders. That disparity. You didn’t miss that did you?

There was a disparity of Xbone preorders compared to PS4 preorders prior to E3.

http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/xbox-one-beating-ps4-on-amazon-tracking-ahead-of-xbox-360-pre-orders/0116893

http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/xbox-one-pre-orders-rebound-after-microsoft-ditches-consoles-restrictions-6C10398980

Post announcement, the Xbone reclaimed its spot. In other words there was a direct correlation between public relations and pre orders.

I guess you missed the part about the playstation has like 4 to 5 pre order packages while the xbox one has only 1.

And its not that we didn't understand it. We understand it quite well. The problem is we don't like it. Let me say again WE DON'T LIKE IT.

 TedNugent wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:
A pre-order disparity?

How there were so many more PS4 pre-orders than XBone pre-orders. That disparity. You didn’t miss that did you?

There was a disparity of Xbone preorders compared to PS4 preorders prior to E3.

http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/xbox-one-beating-ps4-on-amazon-tracking-ahead-of-xbox-360-pre-orders/0116893

http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/xbox-one-pre-orders-rebound-after-microsoft-ditches-consoles-restrictions-6C10398980

Post announcement, the Xbone reclaimed its spot. In other words there was a direct correlation between public relations and pre orders.

Lol yeah xbox one is back on top

It's good they got rid of that crap, it was really like trying to use a turd as a selling feature.

 pities2004 wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:
A pre-order disparity?

How there were so many more PS4 pre-orders than XBone pre-orders. That disparity. You didn’t miss that did you?

There was a disparity of Xbone preorders compared to PS4 preorders prior to E3.

http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/xbox-one-beating-ps4-on-amazon-tracking-ahead-of-xbox-360-pre-orders/0116893

http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/xbox-one-pre-orders-rebound-after-microsoft-ditches-consoles-restrictions-6C10398980

Post announcement, the Xbone reclaimed its spot. In other words there was a direct correlation between public relations and pre orders.

Lol yeah xbox one is back on top

Not so sure about that... we'll see when the sales begin being counted... and i may still switch to PS4 simply out of spite for the junk MS tried to pull... lol

I'm still not getting one. The proof is there that Microsoft wants those features in. If they really want it, they're just a single update and EULA from making it happen. Remember how Sony axed the ability to use different OS's on the PS3? That could easily happen here.

All they have to do is wait a year or so after its released and then quietly start to reinstate those policies. Don't like it? You don't have to sign the EULA, just realize you can't use xBox online anymore. Both companies have pulled stuff like this in the past and I guarantee you we'll see it again. We may not see them outright ban used games, but I could easily see them slipping the 24 hour check in, always on Kinect, and other smaller policies over time. Almost nobody reads those EULA's anyways, they just hit yes and go make coffee or something while they wait for the update. Those EULA's also often say, roughly, "we define what this contract says. By signing it, you give us the right to alter whenever we want, however we want, and as often as we want, what the contract says."

Its the boiling frog trick. Throw it into a boiling pot and it'll hop right out, but if you put the frog in while the water is cool and slowly heat it up, they won't realize how hot it is until its too late.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
I'm still not getting one. The proof is there that Microsoft wants those features in. If they really want it, they're just a single update and EULA from making it happen. Remember how Sony axed the ability to use different OS's on the PS3? That could easily happen here.

All they have to do is wait a year or so after its released and then quietly start to reinstate those policies. Don't like it? You don't have to sign the EULA, just realize you can't use xBox online anymore. Both companies have pulled stuff like this in the past and I guarantee you we'll see it again. We may not see them outright ban used games, but I could easily see them slipping the 24 hour check in, always on Kinect, and other smaller policies over time. Almost nobody reads those EULA's anyways, they just hit yes and go make coffee or something while they wait for the update. Those EULA's also often say, roughly, "we define what this contract says. By signing it, you give us the right to alter whenever we want, however we want, and as often as we want, what the contract says."

Its the boiling frog trick. Throw it into a boiling pot and it'll hop right out, but if you put the frog in while the water is cool and slowly heat it up, they won't realize how hot it is until its too late.

THIS^

It's sad how many people are heads over heels scrambling over to forgive Microsoft for the stunt they just tried to pull that included policies that SHOULDN'T have been there to begin with. New way of the future? More like a future of trying to set up a system that will drain you for as much cash as possible at every angle. Microsoft doesn't give a flaming fart what the consumers think considering they basically told them to shut up and buy an 360 if they didn't have internet. It's only because of Sony taking the opportunity to twist the knife on Microsoft's terrible PR alongside the disparity in pre-orders as well as even fidgety developers thinking of jumping off the Microsoft ship that they finally realized their gamble for more monies was denied and quickly backpedalled to seem like they were genuinely considering/listening to the public even though their clearly arbitrary restrictions should have made it obvious that they were bad ideas from the start.

Seriously what's stopping them from adding these policies back in once enough people have bought the Xbox One? Even then we still have the Kinect (Big Brother always knows) being mandatory as well as the fact that it still tries to do everything at once to the detriment of being an actual game console; hell it was shown that they used a high end PC (running on Windows 7 no less...) to run their games during their conference on E3. I think I'll stick with PS4 and rolling dice...

Sony patented similar tech last year, there is no hero in this arena, they both want it to happen, SONY just took the easy step at E3 and tried to score points.

If they thought they could implement this without a backlash, they'd do it tomorrow.

They'd do it later today, everyone would.

I really liked their 24 hour system. Too bad they didn't communicate it better :(

My plan is to wait about a year before getting either system. That way, I'll be able to see what promises were kept and what was broken, how each console really holds up under use, and hopefully the price will have dropped by then. My 360's still perfectly good and will keep me going til then.

 MandalorynOranj wrote:
My plan is to wait about a year before getting either system. That way, I'll be able to see what promises were kept and what was broken, how each console really holds up under use, and hopefully the price will have dropped by then. My 360's still perfectly good and will keep me going til then.

Sir, that is a logical and well thought out approach devoid of passion and jingoism. I am outraged, and will be doing exactly the same thing.

Gitzbitah wrote:

 MandalorynOranj wrote:
My plan is to wait about a year before getting either system. That way, I'll be able to see what promises were kept and what was broken, how each console really holds up under use, and hopefully the price will have dropped by then. My 360's still perfectly good and will keep me going til then.

Sir, that is a logical and well thought out approach devoid of passion and jingoism. I am outraged, and will be doing exactly the same thing.

Depends what the ongoing support for the 360 is like or whether it gets dropped like a stone in favour of the new shiny thing. I personally would never buy any console at launch, purely because the prices are outrageous - I would rather wait a bit till the tech beds in and prices fall.

Having said all that, there was a rumour doing the rounds recently that the delay/shift in the GTA 5 release date was because Rockstar were planning to make it Xbox One only rather than release on the 360. I really hope that isn't the case.

the mistake microsoft seems to have made, is that they want the high price point for dollars and to provide cloud computing, and DRM, but they aren't harping on the cloud computing.

They need a game like planetside: halo/40k edition, turned up to 11, to be announced with the console to get people on board for the insanity that cloud computing can provide and they would have been more willing to give up their used games but instead they bring out single player games that need to be online for no forseeable reason.

 Grundz wrote:
the mistake microsoft seems to have made, is that they want the high price point for dollars and to provide cloud computing, and DRM, but they aren't harping on the cloud computing.

They need a game like planetside: halo/40k edition, turned up to 11, to be announced with the console to get people on board for the insanity that cloud computing can provide and they would have been more willing to give up their used games but instead they bring out single player games that need to be online for no forseeable reason.

The DRM thing has been dropped, the always online 24 hour check in was also dropped.

 pities2004 wrote:

 Grundz wrote:
the mistake microsoft seems to have made, is that they want the high price point for dollars and to provide cloud computing, and DRM, but they aren't harping on the cloud computing.

They need a game like planetside: halo/40k edition, turned up to 11, to be announced with the console to get people on board for the insanity that cloud computing can provide and they would have been more willing to give up their used games but instead they bring out single player games that need to be online for no forseeable reason.

The DRM thing has been dropped, the always online 24 hour check in was also dropped.

I wasn't talking about current events

Basically one of the two companies (forget Nintendo, this isn't their fight) needs to get hold of League of Legends and/or Defence of the Ancients.

There's a lot of money to be made with those games.

I wonder how many games will pull a sim city and use the cloud as DRM.

nomotog wrote:
I wonder how many games will pull a sim city and use the cloud as DRM.

I'm sure some will (and EA would be amongst the most likely since they did it with your example of sim city and lied about it). I don't think though that the recent license change and removal of 24 hour check in will change who would try that though. If they're using the could as DRM, they'll likely use it constantly (even if for only tiny amounts of data).

Some of them will legitimately use it for background processing away from the action but it's not going to be used for on the fly frame to frame dependent stuff. I remember seeing a calculation that even with good internet download and upload speeds, the latency inherent between the cloud and the player as well as download speeds is nothing compared to within the console data transfer speeds. That's not to say that it won't make a difference though. In a skyrim type of game, it'll likely be used for stuff like background weather and animal patterns and townspeople (outside of interactable range) activity. What will be interesting is when a company includes the *OPTION* to use the cloud for stuff like that. I expect to see videos on youtube of the same town/scene with the cloud both on and off to see the difference.

I do think the abandonment of family sharing for digital only purchases is a reactionary mistake on the part of microsoft. If the original purchase was only digital, allowing disc swapping for *someone else* doesn't change the likelihood of the digital only person trying to steal the game. If someone buys a digital only version of a game, give them the option at purchase of the current 360 method (it's tied to one account/xbox and you must be online logged into your own account to use it elsewhere) or the xbone method (must be checked in ever 24 hours, can use it anywhere if checked in within 1 hour, share freely with 10 "family"). The check-in and inability to transfer licenses freely was an incredibly stupid idea for disc based games but it makes for a good future proof option for digital only purchases. Overall, the abandonment of forced DRM for disc games outweighs the loss of family sharing for digital purchases but the two are in no way, shape, or form opposed to each other.

The cloud (as long as it's used as an OPTION for single player stuff instead of a requirement) is another good idea on the part of microsoft that was obscured by the stink of forced DRM.

 pities2004 wrote:

 Grundz wrote:
the mistake microsoft seems to have made, is that they want the high price point for dollars and to provide cloud computing, and DRM, but they aren't harping on the cloud computing.

They need a game like planetside: halo/40k edition, turned up to 11, to be announced with the console to get people on board for the insanity that cloud computing can provide and they would have been more willing to give up their used games but instead they bring out single player games that need to be online for no forseeable reason.

The DRM thing has been dropped, the always online 24 hour check in was also dropped.

It can quickly come back. Imagine Halo getting mandatory cloud features. Suddenly, DRM.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 pities2004 wrote:

 Grundz wrote:
the mistake microsoft seems to have made, is that they want the high price point for dollars and to provide cloud computing, and DRM, but they aren't harping on the cloud computing.

They need a game like planetside: halo/40k edition, turned up to 11, to be announced with the console to get people on board for the insanity that cloud computing can provide and they would have been more willing to give up their used games but instead they bring out single player games that need to be online for no forseeable reason.

The DRM thing has been dropped, the always online 24 hour check in was also dropped.

It can quickly come back. Imagine Halo getting mandatory cloud features. Suddenly, DRM.

Halo already has Gold-Required features. :(

Gold != forced to be online all the time. Obligatory cloud elements = you are forced to be online whenever you play.

 caledoneus wrote:

 pities2004 wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:
A pre-order disparity?

How there were so many more PS4 pre-orders than XBone pre-orders. That disparity. You didn’t miss that did you?

There was a disparity of Xbone preorders compared to PS4 preorders prior to E3.

http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/xbox-one-beating-ps4-on-amazon-tracking-ahead-of-xbox-360-pre-orders/0116893

http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/xbox-one-pre-orders-rebound-after-microsoft-ditches-consoles-restrictions-6C10398980

Post announcement, the Xbone reclaimed its spot. In other words there was a direct correlation between public relations and pre orders.

Lol yeah xbox one is back on top

Not so sure about that... we'll see when the sales begin being counted... and i may still switch to PS4 simply out of spite for the junk MS tried to pull... lol

I'm one of those.. maybe principled shoppers aren't that significant a factor?

The original propositions by MS with regards to pre-owned games and online registration I think spoke volumes. To me it said, this is the first step, and this is a reminder of what we are going to do if we get to monopolise this industry

I'm not that much of a hardcore gamer, and know that both machines will no doubt have games worth buying - I wasn't that bothered between the two machines previously (and have owned both of the current generation machines) - however the poor build quality of the early 360's and then the subsequent behaviour by MS at the E3 gave off more than a few warning signals.

Not to say that Sony are saints - they are anything but (and it seems to be a thing where arrogance and crappy decisions come from dominance in the marketplace - we've seen it from Nintendo, Sega, Sony and MS all in the past) but they have come off as somewhat less 'evil' than MS out of all of this.

By the way guys.. there is a thread for PS4 discussion, rather than interrupting discussion in this one:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/533894.page

 Sigvatr wrote:
Gold != forced to be online all the time. Obligatory cloud elements = you are forced to be online whenever you play.

No, but it's roughly half to 2/3 the game that requires you be online to use it.

You know. I might be the only one, but I'm kind of excited for the kinect now because it looks like it actually works and it can do all this stuff like measure your heart beat and facial expressions. That's kind of neat. I have an idea for a game that's like a first person game and rather then having a dialog system you would just make faces and that would trigger different responses from your avatar. So if someone said something stupid and you gave them a look then your character might make a sarcastic comment about what is going on, or if you chuckle they chuckle, if your surprised they are surprised too. It would be kind of neat to have your FP avatar respond in thew same way you are.

Another aspect is just game tailoring. It knows when your happy, scared or excited so you could have a game that when you laugh at an off color joke puts in more off color jokes, or if you don't laugh it cuts out the funny stuff. Maybe a horror game that tracks your heart rate to create the exact right scare. Heck it can even do things as simple as fast forwarding a cut-scene when your console hears you yawn.

A PS4 thread has been opened, Sony stuff can go there =0)

Yes, I saw you in it already attempting to troll