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 Minx wrote:
Why would you not include the retail value of parts of your delivery if you try to sum up its total value? The kickstarter exclusive is not a freebie and it never was.

Lets examine the text of the pledge:

RagingHeros Lt Pledge wrote:
3 $10 Heroines (or $30 worth of Heroines) + 4 $15 Troops (or $60 worth of Troops) + 4 $15 Supports (or $60 worth of Supports) + Kickstarter exclusive miniature + the TGG Digital Artbook.

Pledge is 165, there is 150 in value. X = 15. It was easy to divine that the KS exclusive model had a $ value and was part of my pledge. This is different from other KS but whatever. It’s a mini, fits in the 15$ selection, and has a value. Ok great.

Why on early would I consider a Digital Art book (that I would guess would be a mix of house shots of WIP models and concept art that is already posted on the web) to have a value AND be part of the % discount that they like to make a point of bringing up every time someone questions the value of the pledge levels?

How is that transparent? Show me anywhere prior to that discount breakdown they posted that the DIGITAL Art book had an attached value to it. I expect to pay for printed Art books. I expect those to have a value since it requires resources to put the images on paper and ship them to me. A digital art book, not so much.

Update from comments on KS

Loud'n Raging wrote: 5 minutes ago

The 3D prints just came in, we'll be snapping images and sharing them very soon, probably tomorrow. Also, we have the concept art for the Iron empire mascot coming up later tonight!

Someone want to start the timer for the next update?

Vhalan wrote:

 Minx wrote:
Why would you not include the retail value of parts of your delivery if you try to sum up its total value? The kickstarter exclusive is not a freebie and it never was.

Lets examine the text of the pledge:

RagingHeros Lt Pledge wrote:
3 $10 Heroines (or $30 worth of Heroines) + 4 $15 Troops (or $60 worth of Troops) + 4 $15 Supports (or $60 worth of Supports) + Kickstarter exclusive miniature + the TGG Digital Artbook.

Pledge is 165, there is 150 in value. X = 15. It was easy to divine that the KS exclusive model had a $ value and was part of my pledge. This is different from other KS but whatever. It’s a mini, fits in the 15$ selection, and has a value. Ok great.

Why on early would I consider a Digital Art book (that I would guess would be a mix of house shots of WIP models and concept art that is already posted on the web) to have a value AND be part of the % discount that they like to make a point of bringing up every time someone questions the value of the pledge levels?

How is that transparent? Show me anywhere prior to that discount breakdown they posted that the DIGITAL Art book had an attached value to it. I expect to pay for printed Art books. I expect those to have a value since it requires resources to put the images on paper and ship them to me. A digital art book, not so much.

Pledge $10 or more

58 backers

ROOKIE - Our most sincere thanks + a lavishly designed digital artbook featuring the art of the Toughest Girls of the Galaxy (Retail value $14). Designed as a real Digital coffee table book, it will include all the TGG concept art, many unreleased sketches, stories and background, embedded videos of concert art drawing and 3D sculpting, and more... A very special treat if you like the Toughest Girls of the Galaxy!



the KSS price of Drusilla Lepic is 15$ each. is clearly stated. you can buy many of them...at 15$ each of course

Sergio Tulkas wrote:
ROOKIE - Our most sincere thanks + a lavishly designed digital artbook featuring the art of the Toughest Girls of the Galaxy (Retail value $14). Designed as a real Digital coffee table book, it will include all the TGG concept art, many unreleased sketches, stories and background, embedded videos of concert art drawing and 3D sculpting, and more... A very special treat if you like the Toughest Girls of the Galaxy!

Good catch, I missed that. The thanks for supporting us level wasnt one I read completly. Since value was always there, then lets make this a la cart, let me drop the art book, toss 1$ more in for a box of Troops, and call it a day.

Vhalan wrote:
Show me anywhere prior to that discount breakdown they posted that the DIGITAL Art book had an attached value to it. I expect to pay for printed Art books. I expect those to have a value since it requires resources to put the images on paper and ship them to me. A digital art book, not so much.

Is that also true for other digital products? You are living in a strange but beautiful world


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Buzzsaw wrote:
Out of curiosity, how does one establish a retail value for an item that is exclusive to a non-retail venue? Here is an idea, why not make the value even better by setting a value of $50 for the KS exclusive figure?

There are at least two ways to do it: set the value to an arbitrary but high value or use their common value for a comparable miniature. One of those ways is just stupid and they chose the other.

Vhalan wrote:
I expect to pay for printed Art books. I expect those to have a value since it requires resources to put the images on paper and ship them to me. A digital art book, not so much.

So the creation of the art in the first place, whether it is a digital file or printed on paper, has no intrinsic value? Just the materials it is printed on?

MajorWesJanson wrote:
So the creation of the art in the first place, whether it is a digital file or printed on paper, has no intrinsic value? Just the materials it is printed on?

In the context of a KS, where its treated as a value add, yes I would argue it intrinsic value is limited. Where it posted to Drive Through or the webstore of RH, thats a different value context.

Ive been shown that it has had value attached since the beginning, now Id like the option to trade that value to something else. Reallocating that 'value' changes the equation for me and would make this KS favorable when it has been sitting at marginal.

dude... the difference would only be like a few bucks...

At the EB LT I have, that 14$ represents 9.3% of my pledge. At a regular LT level, that 14$ represents 8.4% of the pledge.

Couldn't give a monkeys if the discount is 5% or 25% or 40% for a particular set of choices - it's boring frankly. Do the miniatures represent something interesting to get my hands on? Yes Am I prepared to wait? Yes Do I think I will get good value for money (superb miniatures at the right price)? Yes. If the answer is no then don't pledge.

By all means continue to give constructive criticism of the kickstarter, miniatures, whatever you fancy, it's your time (and it amused me for a page or two).

When people are discussing value, why are they seeming to ignore the freebies for the most part (that's a pretty big value in virtual savings/value)? Having these as paid add-ons might up some pledges too (if they haven't already).

Cheers Laney

It's really looking like they may have tapped out the potential in the markets they have awareness in. I know it's a small team, but are they relying on current backers to make this thing spread? Or do they have some magical marketing plan?

We are now supposed to bring in backers to this little piece of mini heaven.

I think they're doing some more advertising as well. Saw something in the comments from them earlier to expect more adds on forums and what not.

Regarding new backers, I love my life. I'm getting minis, my friends had kids instead.

At least my minis won't quit college on me.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Regarding new backers, I love my life. I'm getting minis, my friends had kids instead.

At least my minis won't quit college on me.

Not gonna lie, I loled.

That was the effect I was going for. The thread needs just a little bit of levity.

I do not have a particular issue with the basic troops price adjustment, 18$ and 20$ RRP sounded too cheap especially the 18$ one, do I believe they hadn't noticed the error 10 days now? strangely, yes, I do, its their first one, it feels like it is their first one and I can leave many amateurish things slip by, because it is their first one, I would not allow such things from a bigger company or a company with a history in kickstarter, but from a 3 person studio, with no previous kickstarter under their belt? sure.

Now a small note on the digital artbook, while it does not cost them to print it, the manhours to make it a reality are the same so yes they can cost it, it does cost to be produced and yes they can sell it at a discount, even if it will not be for sale later on, because they can honestly cost it set a price they would sell it and then discount it.

 Ecstasy in Service wrote:
whoa, I just found out about this cool kickstarter and have pledged a bit of money into it and wanted to what everyones thoughts about it were and.... this is not what I expected! I was just looking for some cool female figs to paint up for some 40k games and here people are going on about point costs and things. Guess I didn't take it that seriously....

You are not alone. But the majority of posts here make an enthusiastic appreciation of the miniatures look like off topic. This thread makes a cross examination in a murder case look like a friendly chat.

 Kroothawk wrote:

 Ecstasy in Service wrote:
whoa, I just found out about this cool kickstarter and have pledged a bit of money into it and wanted to what everyones thoughts about it were and.... this is not what I expected! I was just looking for some cool female figs to paint up for some 40k games and here people are going on about point costs and things. Guess I didn't take it that seriously....

You are not alone. But the majority of posts here make an enthusiastic appreciation of the miniatures look like off topic. This thread makes a cross examination in a murder case look like a friendly chat.

For all of the negativity, some good has come out of it. Some of it comes dangerously close to repetitive noise, however.

At the risk of pointing to an uncomfortable truth, if one feels discussion of value, pricing and discount are pedantic, irrelevant or besides-the-point, such complaints would be more profitably presented to the campaign creators.

This discussion did not, pace objectors, arise organically from the ground: discussions of value and discount are happening because RH decided to spend the entirety of yesterday's update (save for 3 sentences, four if you count an interjection) on the topic of "HOW GOOD A DEAL IS THE TGG KICKSTARTER?" (all caps in original).

It was the campaign creators that decided to highlight some very questionable math (questionable enough that it necessitated a clarification comment almost as long as the update itself to explain their original point).

In all frankness it seems puzzling why they would even bring up the issue of discounts: it's easily the weakest aspect of the campaign from a consumer point of view, and their efforts to make it seem sweeter only serve to make them seem duplicitous or of questionable competency. Paying special attention to the added value items seems a far better use of update space, given their apparent inability to spare time for communication.

 Kroothawk wrote:

 Ecstasy in Service wrote:
whoa, I just found out about this cool kickstarter and have pledged a bit of money into it and wanted to what everyones thoughts about it were and.... this is not what I expected! I was just looking for some cool female figs to paint up for some 40k games and here people are going on about point costs and things. Guess I didn't take it that seriously....

You are not alone. But the majority of posts here make an enthusiastic appreciation of the miniatures look like off topic. This thread makes a cross examination in a murder case look like a friendly chat.

Without an imputation of snark, has there actually been a model shown? It was my impression that the very first pre-produciton models will be seen perhaps tomorrow.

 Kroothawk wrote:

 Ecstasy in Service wrote:
whoa, I just found out about this cool kickstarter and have pledged a bit of money into it and wanted to what everyones thoughts about it were and.... this is not what I expected! I was just looking for some cool female figs to paint up for some 40k games and here people are going on about point costs and things. Guess I didn't take it that seriously....

You are not alone. But the majority of posts here make an enthusiastic appreciation of the miniatures look like off topic. This thread makes a cross examination in a murder case look like a friendly chat.

I'm with you guys. As I said in an earlier post, I'm happy. Obviously wanting more unlocks, really need those IE snipers. But even if they don't appear, I can probably switch to the K's if I need to. Or just wait until general release, whatever. I'm not gonna get near to this project for a year anyway. And I'm more than happy with what I'll be getting for my money. And happy to wait, I've got spare cash now, might not in 12 months. And got plenty other stuff to get done between now and release. Content.

Let's try this again ('d posted in the wrong thread)

This bit from the KS comments sounds promising

Creator Loud'n Raging about 4 hours ago

The 3D prints just came in, we'll be snapping images and sharing them very soon, probably tomorrow. Also, we have the concept art for the Iron empire mascot coming up later tonight!

Does it change anyone else's calculus that Victoria Minis just showcased their WIP female IG stand-ins, and they fit the GW aesthetic perfectly? I don't want to go out on a limb, but the price will also be more reasonable and the miniatures will almost certainly arrive sooner,

The reason I bring this up is because 90% of my interest in this KS came from the fact that someone was finally making a range of futuristic female soldiers. There were a lot of aspects of RH's Kickstarter and their model designs that made me uncomfortable dropping the vaultful of money needed to get a decent sized force from them. Now that options are appearing, I find my enthusiasm flagging. I will still buy some of the heroes and heavies (and the baby hippo!) when they hit retail, but I've just found a use for that money right now (well, soonish) that might otherwise have been tied up in this Kickstarter for years.

I apologise for the negativity, but I was curious who would find their pledges affected by the competition. Is this a real, unaddressed problem that might haunt a Kickstarter insisting on boutique+ pricing for a product that appeals mainly because of the perceived novelty? Ofr are there really hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of people who really just want oversculpted boutique soldiers?

It'll be interesting to see. But I think the type of people who want female guard mostly want them for aesthetic reasons, and there is a lot of style in these miniatures. Don't get me wrong, the Victoria ones are nice and, yes, they possibly will fit better for people who already have Cadian (or mordian) armies and are looking to add, but I just love the designs here. And ten model Victoria squads are currently $45, not exactly a cheaper alternative. But, yeh, you're right. It might have an effect. Hope not though.

I like the look of what Victoria Minis has shown and may well get some (and will also have a look at the jungle girls from Maximini although I don't like the weapons on the first two but they may get better)

but actually them being closer to the GW aesthetic makes them less attractive than the Raging Heroes stuff to me,

and while we might get these ones sooner I doubt Vic will produce the range of stuff shown in this KS (at least in the same time frame), she's got a whole bunch of other stuff to do to (including the really neat looking beastmen)

As to whether RH stuff will be oversculpted I'll wait to see the 3D prints (they've got some in hand today). I doubt it based on what they've done before. Their stuff does have it's own aesthetic and if they stick to that I'll be happy

I like a lot of Vic's offerings, but the wips she showed left me desiring more....

I'd choose Jailbirds any day.

I like RH's models more, tbh. Project is funded, though, so I'll just sit back and reassess my pledge amount on the 7th.

I'll be getting both. With Vic coming onto the scene however, it is likely I will only get excess Iron Empire for Aura's traitor Krieg guard army, while I will take one of each of the JB's and Kurganovas, and then add a load of Vic's.

My Guard already is pretty mixed, with both armies having a cadian/catachan crossover and mixed models.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:

True, but it's not like I have a hankering to give it to GW in the meantime...
Another way to see it is pre-emptive spending that protects one's wallet from depredations on GW's part.
I'm extremely curious to see what will happen in the last few hours. Edge of your seat kinda thing. It's a good thing I'll be off that morning to follow the play by play.

Even if you're doing the whole "I hate everything about GW" mantra, there's plenty of other stuff available right now that is available to purchase. At risk of "pledge-pull" self-parody, I'm now inclined to drop down or out at this stage, though I will wait until the last 24-48 hours to see if they can entice me to stay. Simply as I'm not seeing it as worthwhile use of $365, and the "added value" isn't all that great to me when all the other factors are taken into consideration, and their Numberwang maths is starting to annoy me. Perhaps I'll change to an EB Lieutenant if one opens up, which will still allow me to take most of the heroes I'm after (ie the $10 range).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Does it change anyone else's calculus that Victoria Minis just showcased their WIP female IG stand-ins, and they fit the GW aesthetic perfectly? I don't want to go out on a limb, but the price will also be more reasonable and the miniatures will almost certainly arrive sooner,

The reason I bring this up is because 90% of my interest in this KS came from the fact that someone was finally making a range of futuristic female soldiers. There were a lot of aspects of RH's Kickstarter and their model designs that made me uncomfortable dropping the vaultful of money needed to get a decent sized force from them. Now that options are appearing, I find my enthusiasm flagging. I will still buy some of the heroes and heavies (and the baby hippo!) when they hit retail, but I've just found a use for that money right now (well, soonish) that might otherwise have been tied up in this Kickstarter for years.

I apologise for the negativity, but I was curious who would find their pledges affected by the competition. Is this a real, unaddressed problem that might haunt a Kickstarter insisting on boutique+ pricing for a product that appeals mainly because of the perceived novelty? Ofr are there really hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of people who really just want oversculpted boutique soldiers?

They're both ranges of female miniatures, but the aesthetics are very different. I don't see them as interchangable simply because they all have sculpted breasts. Speaking for myself again, I'm sure I can find a use for both types of figure. While I have some issues with the RH KS, none of them are with the aesthetics, and I'm not sure you could say that RH has gained $420k on the back of "novelty". It's much more largely based on their previous body of work, which includes things like Not-Witch Elves and Not Dark-Eldar and Not-Daemonettes, so I don't see Vic's female Tannenburger WIPs to be in direct competition with the Kurganovas or Iron Empire. What I do see, actually, is $300k pledged for female miniatures just coincidently happening just before Vic finally starts sculpting the female guard we've been asking her to sculpt for over a year. I'm not suggesting that Vic is trying to play spoiler, but that RH's 1st-day $300k might have been enough market research by proxy to finally spur Vic to take her own female troops out of the concept art stage where they have apparently been for some time, and into the beginnings of sculpture.

Which is good news for all of us.

The "Oversculpted boutique soldiers" is unnecessary. I get that you like Vic's work, but please don't go all raging fanboi for Vic while feeling a need to insult everything else. It's unbecoming.

Also, I've got no issue with you or anyone else finding other things to spend money on right now over Kickstarting your life away, but Vic has said that she hopes to have some females hopefully by the end of the year. That's still 6-odd months, which is not exactly "right now" and arguably "soonish". (I'd pay it as "soonish" in Kickstarter time, though! )

They have announced the IE mascot...




This will be going into my desert themed army...

It will be an objective marker...


"Hold the Kitten!"