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Bummer about the Cyber zombies. Most miniature kickstarters call a goal met that was that close in this large a campaign. *shrug*

Doesn't matter for me but doesn't earn them any good will, either. Folks who added for those will have to choose something else.

Ouze I didn't assume it was a slam to be clear, and you have a very good point, the Herald program could have been used a lot better then it was.

I think their decision concerning the remaining locked unit is the right one. I know my friend would have loved himself some cyber-zombies (well, who doesn't, really?), but if it meant the workload was too big, so be it. They paid for the art, people liked it, so fo' sure it'll be used in the not too distant future. Anything that can keep the delays down and not overstretch them is a good thing.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
I think their decision concerning the remaining locked unit is the right one. I know my friend would have loved himself some cyber-zombies (well, who doesn't, really?), but if it meant the workload was too big, so be it. They paid for the art, people liked it, so fo' sure it'll be used in the not too distant future. Anything that can keep the delays down and not overstretch them is a good thing.

I agree. I would much rather have the minis we are getting in a manner somewhat in line sync with the timeline we've been given than have extra baubles at the cost of unknown delays. Besides, I'm sure we'll get these minis eventually!

Four months ago, I put $300 into my Paypal account just for this Kickstarter. That money is still there. $15 for 5 would be a reasonable RRP price (slightly above the current price of DE Wyches/Warriors), but I'm not paying that for unknown sculpts in an untested material at an unknown time, without further discount and with shipping charges on top. And $21.50 for 5 RRP puts Raging Heroes beyond the point where I'd support them "for the cause".

I've backed several kickstarters, this was the only one I dropped out of. Also, apart from a few doubts with Deadzone it's the only one I've commented negatively on.
I was honestly in and out on this project, higher each return until the lulus. If the hadn't been children with a strangely written rule in a miniatures only kickstarter I would have gone big.
I like to have a laugh at Raging Heroes, after three delayed orders I think I have a feel for how they work. Great minis, lazy company.
Really, they should have thanked those who did more than laugh, the ones who actually took the time to point out what they were doing wrong and helped them get it right.

-Regarding the Unit of Cyberzombies, Freya and Zab: what we can tell you at this point is that all these minis will make it into production at some point in time. However, the production load is so heavy right now, that we cannot commit to anything specific at this point in time... If they do become available, it will probably be as add-ons that backers will be able to get with their pledge funds.

I understand this as being still undecided. Why would they say that the Cyberzombies might be bought with pledge funds if definitely not available?

I read that to mean that we probably weren't going to get them. I could be wrong, of course. (I was, once. )

Ah cool. The manage will allow me to properly change my pledge level. Good.

Joyboozer wrote:
I've backed several kickstarters, this was the only one I dropped out of. Also, apart from a few doubts with Deadzone it's the only one I've commented negatively on.
I was honestly in and out on this project, higher each return until the lulus. If the hadn't been children with a strangely written rule in a miniatures only kickstarter I would have gone big.
I like to have a laugh at Raging Heroes, after three delayed orders I think I have a feel for how they work. Great minis, lazy company.
Really, they should have thanked those who did more than laugh, the ones who actually took the time to point out what they were doing wrong and helped them get it right.

I'm sorry for you as I had quite the contrary experience with Raging Heroes. Ordered twice with them on weekends and had my items within the same week. Outstanding Quality too!
And as I read that some are concerned about the Quality of the "resin", since the banner of Eleriel & Alaniel is in resin as they write, I must say that it Looks more like plastic to me. The material is not brittle at all and seems to be quite strong and with well defined edges and flashfree.

Oh and as for the rules for the Lulu's IMHO they wrote that rule for political correctness only. If such things disturb you....well then you did well to drop out.

Funds gathers, and now my wait begins.
It shall not end until it ships.
I shall take no armies, hold no brush, paint no minis.
I shall wear no black t's and win no tournies.
I shall live and die via US post. I am the dork in the darkness.
I am the watcher at the mail box.
I am the nerd that guards the realms of KS.
I pledge my life and honor to the Kickstart's Watch,
for this night and all the nights to come.

 Ouze wrote:

The other take-away I have from this project .... I wasn't going to say this; as I was discussing it privately with someone earlier. But since it came up organically and perhaps other people may feel the same, I guess I will. I don't think I'm going to read the Dakka comments for any kickstarters I follow from now on. I have no real problem with constructive criticism or legitimate beefs; mindless fawning serves no one well and the discussion on proportion especially was ultimately, I bet, very productive to the end result. But there was a distinct flavor throughout this whole thread of a few dedicated people essentially complaining about nothing and a totally weird singling out of specific posters for vitriol that I really didn't think was warranted. I've only participated in a few kickstarters so maybe this is common and I've just not stumbled into it before - I didn't get into Dreadball or Robotech the other recent big ones - but there were definitely a few.... negative evangelists whose presence in the thread seemed solely to try and throw dirt on the project, people who posted they had dropped their pledge dozens of pages ago but still hung around kvetching. I'm sure somewhere Jervis is facepalming and saying out loud "bro, it's not just this project" but this is definitely how I perceived it to go down. Maybe I'm wrong, that's how it felt to me at the end.

That was my impression too.

 Elemental wrote:

 Ouze wrote:

The other take-away I have from this project .... I wasn't going to say this; as I was discussing it privately with someone earlier. But since it came up organically and perhaps other people may feel the same, I guess I will. I don't think I'm going to read the Dakka comments for any kickstarters I follow from now on. I have no real problem with constructive criticism or legitimate beefs; mindless fawning serves no one well and the discussion on proportion especially was ultimately, I bet, very productive to the end result. But there was a distinct flavor throughout this whole thread of a few dedicated people essentially complaining about nothing and a totally weird singling out of specific posters for vitriol that I really didn't think was warranted. I've only participated in a few kickstarters so maybe this is common and I've just not stumbled into it before - I didn't get into Dreadball or Robotech the other recent big ones - but there were definitely a few.... negative evangelists whose presence in the thread seemed solely to try and throw dirt on the project, people who posted they had dropped their pledge dozens of pages ago but still hung around kvetching. I'm sure somewhere Jervis is facepalming and saying out loud "bro, it's not just this project" but this is definitely how I perceived it to go down. Maybe I'm wrong, that's how it felt to me at the end.

That was my impression too.

I've got the same Impression too.

Well....not to be that guy...but I dropped 1k......~looks around nervously~ so I certainly hope the negative opinions expressed by those that hated the project are just that...opinions. I'd really like my 1000 to go to something that looks awesome. If the stuff I have bought in the past is any indication, I should be pleased. I'll let you know in 2 years time when this all actually is shipped out

 rayphoton wrote:
Well....not to be that guy...but I dropped 1k......~looks around nervously~ so I certainly hope the negative opinions expressed by those that hated the project are just that...opinions. I'd really like my 1000 to go to something that looks awesome. If the stuff I have bought in the past is any indication, I should be pleased. I'll let you know in 2 years time when this all actually is shipped out

This is an excellent attitude

As one of those that dropped their pledge with12 or so days remaining but stuck around in the thread I have to say it was partially because I was still considering testing the company out with the $15 pledge like I did with AoW. However the lack of actual renders for some of the items I was considering (artillery or troops) combined with the tone of some of their updates kept me from recommitting even at this level.

My impressions are my impressions. I'm not saying anyone has to feel the same way. But that doesn't mean I shouldn't share my opinion. And the "negativity" (i.e. constructive criticism) on this wasn't nearly as heated I've seen on several other KS's.

 Valhallan42nd wrote:
Funds gathers, and now my wait begins.
It shall not end until it ships.
I shall take no armies, hold no brush, paint no minis.
I shall wear no black t's and win no tournies.
I shall live and die via US post. I am the dork in the darkness.
I am the watcher at the mail box.
I am the nerd that guards the realms of KS.
I pledge my life and honor to the Kickstart's Watch,
for this night and all the nights to come.

You all now qualify for black watch tartan

Agreed, Hulk! Also, for those singling out "Dakka" in this... often, comments on Kickstarter itself can be as "bad" or worse (either in the "no criticism allowed" slant, or in being overly critical). Perils of the internet, I suppose...! And as stated, this wasn't even as bad as some campaigns... I keep thinking I must have missed something because the comments I saw were really not that abrasive compared to things I've seen in Mantic / Through the Breach / other campaigns.

Anyway, hoping for the best outcome for those who spent big on this and for myself in the other campaigns I have similarly committed even though I didn't go in on this one. It's an exciting time for miniatures projects from small-to-mid-sized companies, to be sure!

 Hulksmash wrote:

 rayphoton wrote:
Well....not to be that guy...but I dropped 1k......~looks around nervously~ so I certainly hope the negative opinions expressed by those that hated the project are just that...opinions. I'd really like my 1000 to go to something that looks awesome. If the stuff I have bought in the past is any indication, I should be pleased. I'll let you know in 2 years time when this all actually is shipped out

This is an excellent attitude

As one of those that dropped their pledge with12 or so days remaining but stuck around in the thread I have to say it was partially because I was still considering testing the company out with the $15 pledge like I did with AoW. However the lack of actual renders for some of the items I was considering (artillery or troops) combined with the tone of some of their updates kept me from recommitting even at this level.

My impressions are my impressions. I'm not saying anyone has to feel the same way. But that doesn't mean I shouldn't share my opinion. And the "negativity" (i.e. constructive criticism) on this wasn't nearly as heated I've seen on several other KS's.

The constructive criticism was actually very helpful, since Raging Heroes attempted to comply with it during the Kickstarter, and actually seemed to get better results from doing so. Some of the "negativity" failed to rise above the level of vile invective, of course, which is about par for the course for any forum thread, really. I was kind of surprised with how willing they were to accommodate the backers, since I'm used to companies never bothering to listen to consumer support at all.

I was particularly grateful to the brothers who testified about Raging Heroes having been late in shipping them merchandise. It enabled me to assess the situation with eyes open. I still bought from them, but at least now if my shipment is late, I'll be able to stay calm about it, since it will all be within expected boundaries.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
I think success cannot be measured by the amount they got, or the percentage they blasted their objective by. 12K was unrealistic for such a project.

In my mind, success will be measured by the future take-off of the line and the game. If neither happen, then we'll have to reckon that the kickstarter was a failure. If only the line of minis survives and no game, then I'd call it a half success because they can sell their product, but will ultimately be dependent of other factors out of their control for continued volumes of sales.

Trust me, I want nothing more than an alternative to GW. I understand the place GW has in the market, but alternatives are always a good thing. Since my household is a DINK, even these boutique prices won't turn me off if the game is, say, platoon sized. Heck, even company sized over time would be fine by me. But they need that game, in my opinion, more than three more lines of minis. Even if the game is bare-bones, focusing only on these units, with more expansions later on.

The game will be the measuring stick, I say.

I honestly wouldn't put much stock in their "game". The market is flooded with sci-fi skirmish titles, both out and upcoming. It's a large financial investment to get a ruleset up and running, and with RH being French, you'd expect that the rules would first have to be written in French, then playtested, then translated into English and have the living hell proofread out of them by competently bilingual people. That's a huge investment of time and money. There's a reason, after all that Felix eventually decided that Warthrone wouldn't be getting released in English.

I feel the same way about the Dreamforge and Anvil "games" as well, FWIW - and the same again if Vic decides that she wants a game to go with her Not-Guard.

I think a better solution would be for some kind of GURPS option, almost. A solid ruleset for sci-fi skirmish battles, open licence (similar to what WotC did with D20 years back) then used in a universal manner by all the small companies. Let's say Mantic decided to go this way with the Warpath 2.0 ruleset, which I've not played, but seems to have good feedback. Then companies like RH, Dreamforge, Vic, etc etc could essentially release their own "Worldbook" with the base rules reprinted as well as their own faction's rules and fluff included. If you know one system, you know them all. - and then each company caretakes their own version. If you want to play Kurganovas vs Eisenkern, then if your opponent agrees, then go for it. (Bearing in mind Dreamforge may not be balanced against Kurganovas) If not, it's Kurganovas vs Iron Empire.

Seriously, if several of these smaller companies wanted to get together and grow the hobby a little, this would be a good way to go about it, they'd then all be in cooperation as well as competition - which is a good thing considering the number of failed games over the years. Put some money in, get a couple of quality guys to put together a ruleset - Alessio, Priestley, Chambers, Hoare, Thornton are all out there doing work for hire.


So yeah, I don't think a mythical, theoretical game means anything to this kickstarter's success. If they get their model range off the ground and it sells well at retail, then they'll have achieved longer-term success.


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 Tannhauser42 wrote:

prankster wrote:
It's not just a case of wanting the figures at the discounted prices or not. There's a number of issues with the way that RH ran the kickstarter that they'll hopefully sort out for their next one. Getting these right would have made the final total higher than it was.

Sure, I think they could have done better, but I do not believe it would have brought them to the million dollar mark like I've seen some people claim.

The RH KS was incredibly badly run. I think they achieved amazing success almost in spite of themselves, and based heavily on the reputation for quality models that they have built up over the past several years. I think they could easily have gotten an additional 100k if it were better run, and possibly more. The freebies should have been stacked far earlier, which would have then gotten more people on board during the lull in the middle, with everything in the (very late) roadmap unlocked at the end. there were a lot of people who dropped out or down in their pledges - this could have been avoided, which I believe would have resulted in a significantly higher total.

I hope that they decide to completely fulfil their obligations for this KS before launching another, then take their time and take on board all the lessons learned from this campaign. If they do so, the next one could/should do far better. They've proved themselves as quality producers, albeit with a reputation for lateness. If they prove themselves as capable in the fulfilment of this KS, it will be a huge plus for the next.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Buzzsaw wrote:

Bones and Bombshell miniatures are clearly intended to be used only as pieces in other games (although, it must be pointed out that Reaper does have a few rules sets that it's miniatures can be used in), to a far greater degree then TGG. The TGG line includes a number of exotic options that have little to no use in the dominant game system, because they are so infused with flavor specific to the TGG setting (the Lulus being the ultimate example).

Let's be real. They're ratling sniper analogues with a bit of badly-written "no, not really!!!" fluff to avoid child-soldier criticism. The "preview rules" for them are the kind of fluff anyone can make up on the spot. Ducks and Spades.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kroothawk wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
Kroot, we got it... It did well, you thought it eventually would, check . Fact is both sides are valid, and I think all are happy this did well! Just enjoy it

Well, I don't think the hostility against Raging Heroes and me was valid or helpful. I think the hostile tone in this thread was not worthy of Dakka. That's why I stress that false claims are now proven false. That the panic was uncalled for. And that posters and mods should think twice to let such a hostile thread happen again.

You appear to have lost some of your sense of perspective, such as it is. It was no worse than any Mantic KS thread, in my opinion. The difference is that here you played the part of Raging Fanboi cheerleader as opposed to (rabidly) hostile critic. An even perspective is a wonderful thing to have. That means praise and criticism - both when warranted. This campaign and RH deserved both at various times, and I felt got it. Every significant thread in N&R seems to have a degree of bitching, some warranted and some ridiculous, just as they have warranted and ridiculous levels of fandom. This one is far longer than most, and as a result got more of both.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

It was, in fact, shameful. As I said in my first post after this thing kicked off, this thread is easily the most shameful I've seen in Dakka's history. The amount of bellyaching over nothing was nothing short of extraordinary.

You've never participated in a thread about GW products? Pots and Kettles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alpharius wrote:
Nothing personal intended - I was just saying that some people may have taken the "Raging" thing too literally, and maybe on 'both sides of the fence" - though I will say that there wasn't really a 'side' that wanted anything less than a 'win' for RH here!

Extreme arguments/opinions/passions from one side of any argument will always trigger equally extreme reactions from the opposite side - resulting in a polarising effect. Generally not that useful to anyone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ouze wrote:

I also found the herald's communication a bit lacking. I'm not giving them a hard time, honestly, since obviously I don't know the behind the scenes stuff - maybe they were asking questions left and right that never got answered, who knows? - but it felt to me that they didn't add any more value to the project then someone who was simply reading the updates. It sure seemed like the updates were rarely posted by a herald, for example, and i think in an ideal world they'd be posted nearly immediately. I think they could improve this first by co-ordinating better with the next kickstarter by making sure they cover all time zones, cover all the sites, and so forth, and having a co-ordinated listserv for the heralds. One thing I'd like to see; and I'm not sure this is possible, is manufacturers/vendors have a shared logon for Dakka that they can alternate between timezones for projects like this. I imagine the possible drama surrounding this might make Lego leery of allowing it for the small benefit it offers, but a thought.

Not to rag on the Heralds, but the updates for the front page of the thread were hamstrung by RH's decision to post a new thread on the KS themselves. They're not dedicated forumites, so they probably didn't realise how much of a bad thing this was. The result was that Kroot, who has stated that he's not a Herald, but is clearly the chief RH fan on this forum was putting tohether the updates, then passing them to MajorTom to update the OP. This adds an additional delay in getting that update as one has to get to the other.

I imagine that communication to the Heralds would be just as sporadic and incomplete as it was to the rest of us over the course of the campaign, and combine that with no real consistent update times and people's need to work, sleep and sometimes spend time away from the computer with family, etc, it's understandable. As an unpaid, volunteer position, you can't really expect them to be online and ready all the time, when really a couple of hours a day on the computer is a more than reasonable time expectation. Hell, I sometimes get an important PM or email while I'm on the computer that I don't even see for 30-120mins after it's arrival - and that's when I'm using the comp.

Really, I believe that if Kroot had (been able to) start(ed) the thread rather than RH themselves, just like ScarletSquig in the Mantic threads, we would have seen the updates as regularly as can reasonably be expected in a forum thread.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
At worst, Melissa, you'll have to wait 12-24 months for the Kurganova troops to hit retail with the final sculpts and then buy or not buy. Better to forget about them for several months now and look in when there's something to actually see or buy.

I don't really care whether or not they "succeeded" according to some vague definition of what "success" is beyond meeting their stated goals (and exceeding them even)...


... I just wish they made something I wanted to buy. I'm still waiting on the redo of the Kurganovas...

...so are a lot of us. Otherwise I'm getting a bat-load of werewolves...

 Azazelx wrote:


I think a better solution would be for some kind of GURPS option, almost. A solid ruleset for sci-fi skirmish battles, open licence (similar to what WotC did with D20 years back) then used in a universal manner by all the small companies. Let's say Mantic decided to go this way with the Warpath 2.0 ruleset, which I've not played, but seems to have good feedback. Then companies like RH, Dreamforge, Vic, etc etc could essentially release their own "Worldbook" with the base rules reprinted as well as their own faction's rules and fluff included. If you know one system, you know them all. - and then each company caretakes their own version. If you want to play Kurganovas vs Eisenkern, then if your opponent agrees, then go for it. (Bearing in mind Dreamforge may not be balanced against Kurganovas) If not, it's Kurganovas vs Iron Empire.

Seriously, if several of these smaller companies wanted to get together and grow the hobby a little, this would be a good way to go about it, they'd then all be in cooperation as well as competition - which is a good thing considering the number of failed games over the years. Put some money in, get a couple of quality guys to put together a ruleset - Alessio, Priestley, Chambers, Hoare, Thornton are all out there doing work for hire.

.

This is, in a word, brilliant.

I'd also love the idea of an open source ruleset; but I have to wonder how many people play for the lore, not the ease of play/etc from the rules.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
I think a better solution would be for some kind of GURPS option, almost. A solid ruleset for sci-fi skirmish battles, open licence (similar to what WotC did with D20 years back) then used in a universal manner by all the small companies. Let's say Mantic decided to go this way with the Warpath 2.0 ruleset, which I've not played, but seems to have good feedback. Then companies like RH, Dreamforge, Vic, etc etc could essentially release their own "Worldbook" with the base rules reprinted as well as their own faction's rules and fluff included. If you know one system, you know them all. - and then each company caretakes their own version. If you want to play Kurganovas vs Eisenkern, then if your opponent agrees, then go for it. (Bearing in mind Dreamforge may not be balanced against Kurganovas) If not, it's Kurganovas vs Iron Empire.

Seriously, if several of these smaller companies wanted to get together and grow the hobby a little, this would be a good way to go about it, they'd then all be in cooperation as well as competition - which is a good thing considering the number of failed games over the years. Put some money in, get a couple of quality guys to put together a ruleset - Alessio, Priestley, Chambers, Hoare, Thornton are all out there doing work for hire.

This is, in a word, brilliant.

I agree. Balkanisation of rulesets is a weakness, not a strength. While some games do have different needs - you'd have a hard time playing Epic with Necromunda's rules or vice versa - the less rulesets there are the more effort can be devoted to optimising and improving them, and the easier it will be to find another player familiar with the same rules.

 Ouze wrote:
I'd also love the idea of an open source ruleset; but I have to wonder how many people play for the lore, not the ease of play/etc from the rules.

I think that most people who play for the lore play for their armies lore, with less thought for their opponents' lore, so I think this wouldn't be as big of an issue.

I hadn't fully realized what Azazelx had been proposing before my third read through, but yes, yes, my god yes. An open source ruleset would be like a godsend, and I would love to support a project like that! Seriously, I was just thinking about how awesome it would be to have a game that didn't require you to use models from any specific manufacturer.

I'd love to see something worked into the system, though, to give some kind of mechanical advantage, however slight, to armies which were completed. Just for my own sake. I derive the majority of my hobby entertainment from how the table looks during the game, and unpainted minis put a serious crimp in that.

Oh, and Alex, bonus points for applying the term 'Balkanization' to minis rules.

 Ouze wrote:
I'd also love the idea of an open source ruleset; but I have to wonder how many people play for the lore, not the ease of play/etc from the rules.

I have an idea for that. Do it like RPGs. Or more accurately do it like Az suggested. Like GURPS. So we have the core rule set. Book X. Book X contains the basic rules for Sci Fi war gaming, and includes a couple army lists from various systems and some generic ones you can play with literally everything. The book's simple, easy to understand (Unlike GURPS which is calculus in disguise) but if you play a particular system, like say we're all Raging Heroes fans, you go to your FLGS and pick up the TGG Splatbook, which contains all the lore, special rules and army lists for the five TGG armies. (IE, KST, Jail Birds, DE and Battle Space Nuns). Larger systems like Iron Core(with it's 8+ factions) might be in multiple volumes. Or have actual individual faction codex equivalents available along with more special rules and more in-depth fluff/lore.

Its certainly an intriguing idea. In regard to the Vic Minis range, I have focused on modelling, not rules. Rules might happen in the future, but how many sci-fi skirmish games does the industry really need. I am not a rules writer, my first love is modelling and background, Andy Hoare has written some great fluff for my regiments. If there was a system where all that could be integrated with other ranges, I'd be very interested. Consider me the first company to throw the hat in the ring.

This idea for an open source ruleset deserves it's own thread.

 Azazelx wrote:
You appear to have lost some of your sense of perspective, such as it is. It was no worse than any Mantic KS thread, in my opinion. The difference is that here you played the part of Raging Fanboi cheerleader as opposed to (rabidly) hostile critic.

Thanks for your rabidly hostile personal attack. Dakka needs more personal attacks like yours, so that everyone who has not the exact same opinion as you is in constant fear to post it. Hope the mods appreciate this.

I think we'll just step in and "suggest" this particular tangent ends here. Best for all concerned.