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 Flavius Infernus wrote:
It's funny how it's not really possible to talk about Eldar HS choices without including wave serpents now. They are more effective in a fire support role than a lot of the actual HS choices.

I'm still not persuaded about Wraithknights. I can't think of anything a WK can do that some other HS choice can't do better and cheaper--and without being hard-countered by an army with a lot of poison, gauss or rending (or even bladestorm). How long will your "distraction" last against a DE venom spam army?

The two things they arguably do well, fire magnet and MC assault, aren't really things an Eldar army needs, IMHO.

Well if eldar is facing venom spam, then great, they barely have any anti tank other than 3 ravagers so you can keep the wraithknight in reserve or a far back as possiable and use the rest of your army to go to town on av10 open topped tanks.

Wave Serpents don't provide anti-heavy armour (AV14) as well as the actual HS choices of the Prism, WK or even Falcon (TL BL is ok, but doesn't take advantage of Laser Lock).

I like to have some ranged AV options because I face front AV14 quite common, and don't always have the luxury of zooming up and blowing them up all the time. Being able to cause a table result can really help.

The WK can provide 2 AT shots, and is slightly better against monstrous creatures (actually much better if they are T5) than Prisms, though 2 Prisms can really put on the hurt to AV14. 1 stock WK is slightly cheaper than 2 prisms though, and probably tougher too unless the enemy spams poison.

Here are my choices in order of usefulness:

War Walkers - Scout, Outflanking, two heavy weapons. As others have said the Scatter/Starcannon, Twin-Scatter or Twin-Brightlance options are awesome
Fire Prism - If you are going Mech, this is a way to involve more saturation of AV12 Holofields. Also notable in that they really are anti-everything except flyers.
Dark Reapers - Now more versatile than ever, also very good to man ADLs with.
Wraithknights - I know, I know...but these things absorb a TERRIBLE amount of damage. Against all but the best players, this will help you win games just because of the weapons fire it keeps away from other units.
Artillery - These can be very lethal against certain armies. They suffer in a TAC environment however.
Wraithlords - Point for point better than Wraithknights. Can be amazing firing platforms, but beat out by the War Walkers when they got their 5++.
Falcons - Unless you tailor your list around Mech in higher point games, these are just not nearly as useful as you'd want them to be. The Wave Serpents can do almost everything better except volume of Strength 8 fire.
Wraithfighter - These 'synergy' attack fighters rely on FAR too much else to go right for their points cost. They are designed without realizing the opponent will actually try to combat your army.

If we add things like Forgeworld the choices get a little more difficult. Units like the Warp Hunter are amazingly good, and if they get the vehicle options available in the new Codex, and will become hard to turn down.

EDIT: Forgot Vaul's Battery.

Forgot Nightspinner as well

Which is a lot more useful than a Fire Prism in almost any situation. Prisms have been hit and miss for a while now. That has only gotten more true with the new codex. I'm using 2 of mine to convert to Spinners, though I'll keep them magnetized just in case.

 Flavius Infernus wrote:
Based on my play experience so far, War Walkers are actually *more* survivable than before. Battle Focus lets them dodge in and out of cover/range while still shooting. AR10 and open-topped don't matter when you don't get shot at all.

I didn't think much of prisms either until somebody pointed out to me that a str9 lance weapon at AP1 is actually slightly better than a D-cannon against AR13-14 because of the extra bonus on the damage table.

I think the fear factor of a Wraithknight only works on opponents who lack experience and will fall for it. I can't imagine anything a WK is going to do in my back lines that I can't just ignore. The only WK batrep I've seen so far, the Eldar player lost everything except the Wraithknight, which his opponent just bogged with HtH and shot up the rest of his army for the win.

If a WK tries to hide in CC, then that's good for me as the opponent since it's bogged out of the game for a couple of turns at least.

Here are some really good batreps with great uses of wraithknights.

Reecius: Has been using WK in all his reports since dex dropped.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/536920.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/536716.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/537699.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/539630.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/540563.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/541257.page


Jy2: Just got a eldar WS army and has used a WK in every batrep so far.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/540220.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/540850.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/539542.page

An interesting note is that the WK is pretty good against Tau as it doubles out the suits/command and can ID the riptide with luck. It is also extremely difficult to put down for a Tau gunline as they tend to depend more on short range S8 or mass S7.

Additionally S10 is great against Daemon princes and spawn and makes fights against them a bit easier.

Not to mention the fact that it [S10] makes every Land Raider owner sweat a little just by being on the table.

I have a hard time justifying a NIght Spinner over Shadow Weavers. Torrent isn't that much better than Barrage even against things behind ADLs and the like, and your targets get an armor save against most wounds anyway. Plus the Torrent option is much riskier, and Spinners run the risk of being disabled by most of the damage table results.

Multiwound T4 with I3 and lower is where the Spinner needs to prove its value. And I'm not sure it really does. Ideal targets here are Tau suits and Wraiths. But in testing I find that Shadow Weavers typically score more hits on these units, especially with Guide, such that the Spinner only barely edges them out without considering that it's more expensive.

Like Falcons, Spinners also have a Serpent problem, even against the things they're supposedly best against. 4 hits is pretty good for a large blast and is a pretty typical result for a torrent template. Against Wraiths, you expect 2.22 wounds (after doubling for ID). A Serpent expects 2.84 wounds firing all 3 guns at full BS, 2.35 if snap-firing the Shuriken Cannon, and 2.1 from 36".

pantsonhead wrote:
I have a hard time justifying a NIght Spinner over Shadow Weavers. Torrent isn't that much better than Barrage even against things behind ADLs and the like, and your targets get an armor save against most wounds anyway. Plus the Torrent option is much riskier, and Spinners run the risk of being disabled by most of the damage table results.

Multiwound T4 with I3 and lower is where the Spinner needs to prove its value. And I'm not sure it really does. Ideal targets here are Tau suits and Wraiths. But in testing I find that Shadow Weavers typically score more hits on these units, especially with Guide, such that the Spinner only barely edges them out without considering that it's more expensive.

Like Falcons, Spinners also have a Serpent problem, even against the things they're supposedly best against. 4 hits is pretty good for a large blast and is a pretty typical result for a torrent template. Against Wraiths, you expect 2.22 wounds (after doubling for ID). A Serpent expects 2.84 wounds firing all 3 guns at full BS, 2.35 if snap-firing the Shuriken Cannon, and 2.1 from 36".

The biggest reason is that it can move. The Spinner won't be out of range without recourse, and more importantly than that can adjust to draw Line of Sight so it gets -4 to it's scatter, which is huge. Not only can it move forward to torrent things, but it can move away as well, instead of being assaulted and dying. It also will never break morale and flee. Torrent's also better when the opponent is prevented from 'maximal coherency dispersion' or whatever you want to call it, such as after Drop Pods or Deepstrikes.

Strength 8 > 7 vs side armour as well.

These are all things you can't just 'mathhammer' out.

Well, you really can mathhammer those things out. But I wasn't going for a very rigorous comparison - if it's only pretty plausible that Shadow Weavers are simply better than Night Spinners, then they're almost certainly a better choice for real lists because the Spinner is anywhere from 28-55% more expensive.

I didn't mention vehicles in the Spinner's favor because the Shadow Weavers are actually better against them. They have about the same chance of scoring a single hit with barrage fire, and if they score one hit they'll probably score three. The Spinner is maybe better against AV13 side armor, depending on how you value pens vs glances, and AV14.

Shadow Weavers likewise seem a lot better against a unit that's just arrived via deep strike. Guide them and you have a really good chance of getting a huge number of hits - 12 hits on a unit of 6 is very achievable. Remember that multiple barrages can double up.

I haven't really seen Shadow Weavers end up out of range without recourse in a way that mattered at all. They also tend to be in LoS if you want them to be, because they're insanely durable for their cost and make a great screen and infilitrator blocker in your deployment zone.

It's true that Weavers take a morale check after taking two wounds. Though they're T7 and will often have a cover save so that's a little hard to make happen. Weavers are also excellent character bunkers and will often be at Ld 10. The same guns firing at a Spinner have a very good chance of forcing a roll on the damage table, and the Spinner has a higher chance of not being able to shoot next turn when that happens. The Spinner is clearly more vulnerable to assault than the Weavers if you want to take any advantage of its torrent mode, and in general the Eldar player is going to be pretty happy if the other guy sends an assault unit all the way across the board for a 90 point artillery squad instead of using it to threaten Serpents.

Barrage always subtracts the full distance on the dice from scatters in 6th edition. Line of sight doesn't make any different anymore.

Having said that, it's hard to quantify the effects of multiple barrage that you get from 3 shadow weavers. I am able to turn a complete miss into some kind of hit, I'd estimate, about half the time using 3 templates.

But I know from recently playing 3 games with weavers that they are extremely durable. T7 and 3+ all the time, and if you position them right they can swallow six wounds before any loss in firepower. Most opponents don't bother to shoot at them at all. In a "Big Guns Never Tire" scenario, you can just park them on your home objective and forget about it.

Ld 8 is their biggest weakness (like Tau).

 Flavius Infernus wrote:
Barrage always subtracts the full distance on the dice from scatters in 6th edition. Line of sight doesn't make any different anymore.

That is not true, reread the barrage section first bullet point. It can fire indirectly and but does NOT subtract BS from the scatter.

Nightspinners are great because of the S8 and torrent. With good use a torrent should be able to get 6-8 hits every time you fire with no scatter or to hit. The vaul battery is great but don't discount the power of torrent. To recap torrent always hits to max effect and ignores cover (even area terrain) whereas barrage can "snipe" models, ignores some cover, but scatters often times badly.

I don't see how you're getting 6-8 hits every time unless the other guy is really bunched up and you're just a little more than 12" from the enemy. It's not a Heldrake and can only move 12" per turn before firing (absent some more points). This puts the Spinner at huge risk of being assaulted. Ignores Cover is also not incredibly useful on it, relative to weapons with decent AP. It's AP-, after all, so except when a Serpent would also be a great choice it's only helping you when you roll a 6 to-wound. It's a nice bonus, but it's most useful against 2+ and 3+ saves of the sort that you already have better options for dealing with. Wraiths really are the ideal use case for Spinners, and they just don't do that great of a job against them.

 ansacs wrote:

 Flavius Infernus wrote:
Barrage always subtracts the full distance on the dice from scatters in 6th edition. Line of sight doesn't make any different anymore.

That is not true, reread the barrage section first bullet point. It can fire indirectly and but does NOT subtract BS from the scatter.

Nightspinners are great because of the S8 and torrent. With good use a torrent should be able to get 6-8 hits every time you fire with no scatter or to hit. The vaul battery is great but don't discount the power of torrent. To recap torrent always hits to max effect and ignores cover (even area terrain) whereas barrage can "snipe" models, ignores some cover, but scatters often times badly.

Whoops, that's what I meant, but I typed the word "subtracts" in there for some reason. Probably the second martini.

The sentence should read "Barrage always scatters the full distance on the dice..."

An AP 6 torrent? Meh.

pantsonhead wrote:
I don't see how you're getting 6-8 hits every time unless the other guy is really bunched up and you're just a little more than 12" from the enemy. It's not a Heldrake and can only move 12" per turn before firing (absent some more points).

Slap a Crystal Targeting Matrix on it, and torrent after going Flat Out that extra 18" after moving.
That's a threat range of 12+18+12=42" plus the flamer template.

 Flavius Infernus wrote:

 ansacs wrote:

 Flavius Infernus wrote:
Barrage always subtracts the full distance on the dice from scatters in 6th edition. Line of sight doesn't make any different anymore.

That is not true, reread the barrage section first bullet point. It can fire indirectly and but does NOT subtract BS from the scatter.

Nightspinners are great because of the S8 and torrent. With good use a torrent should be able to get 6-8 hits every time you fire with no scatter or to hit. The vaul battery is great but don't discount the power of torrent. To recap torrent always hits to max effect and ignores cover (even area terrain) whereas barrage can "snipe" models, ignores some cover, but scatters often times badly.

Whoops, that's what I meant, but I typed the word "subtracts" in there for some reason. Probably the second martini.

The sentence should read "Barrage always scatters the full distance on the dice..."

An AP 6 torrent? Meh.

That's not true either. If you're firing directly with barrage weapons, you do subtract the distance from your scatter dice, making them more accurate snipers with LOS.

I really like Vauls support, they're great, so I'm loathe to argue the point. The Nightspinner's mobility, torrent option, and Str8 do come into play though, so they're different enough.

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:


That's not true either. If you're firing directly with barrage weapons, you do subtract the distance from your scatter dice, making them more accurate snipers with LOS.

I'm going to need a page and quote to agree with that. That was true in 5th edition, but in 6th edition I'm only seeing the rule (p34) that says "When firing indirectly, the Ballistic Skill of the firer is not subtracted from the scatter distance..."

Unless you're talking about firing your barrage weapons as direct-fire weapons? But then you lose all the benefits of barrage. Might as well use the Str7 shot from a fire prism.

 Flavius Infernus wrote:

I'm going to need a page and quote to agree with that. That was true in 5th edition, but in 6th edition I'm only seeing the rule (p34) that says "When firing indirectly, the Ballistic Skill of the firer is not subtracted from the scatter distance..."

Unless you're talking about firing your barrage weapons as direct-fire weapons? But then you lose all the benefits of barrage. Might as well use the Str7 shot from a fire prism.

Why would you lose all the benefits of barrage when you fire directly? Only the first bullet point in the Barrage rules talks about what you gain for firing indirectly. All the other rules have to do with the weapon merely being a Barrage weapon, regardless of whether or not it is fired indirectly.

Both, the Nightspinner and the Fire Prism are too unreliable since the blasts have a 66% chance on average to scatter (3-7 inches).
Moreover, the enemy may stay in cover reducing the number of casualties.
I'd stay away from both kinds of tanks in competitive play.

I will say this: With 2 Prisms on the table, There's not a fortification in the game you can't just absolutely wreck. "Oh, you put your Vindicare in that bastion? *BEAM* What Bastion?"

 wuestenfux wrote:
Both, the Nightspinner and the Fire Prism are too unreliable since the blasts have a 66% chance on average to scatter (3-7 inches).
Moreover, the enemy may stay in cover reducing the number of casualties.
I'd stay away from both kinds of tanks in competitive play.

If it were as simple as that you'd never see blasts in this game, and yet they appear in competitive lists for several armies all the time. I'm not big on the Nightspinner because it is just another source of mass S6, but the Prism has a unique role and is good to saturate the board with more AV12 in a Serpent SPAM list.

At BS4, a large blast is actually about as accurate as a standard single shot against a single model. You can scatter up to 2" and still hit, and you subtract 4 from the rolled scatter, so you hit 61% of the time. If there are other models around the one you're aiming at it's obviously more accurate.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
If it were as simple as that you'd never see blasts in this game, and yet they appear in competitive lists for several armies all the time. I'm not big on the Nightspinner because it is just another source of mass S6, but the Prism has a unique role and is good to saturate the board with more AV12 in a Serpent SPAM list.

S8 you mean? At least when it matters. CTM plus torrent weapon is just ridiculous. People rage on about Helldrakes(yes, I know it's a flyer-wanting-to-be-a-MC so that adds to the rage), but seem to glance over the Nightspinner. Twin-link that flamer with Guide and you're looking at quite a few of 6's. Which means instant death for a lot of hard-to-kill things like Tau Battlesuits. No cover means no Jink for Eldar WRJ with Conceal, for instance. AND it instant-kills the Farseer with them if it wounds. It's uses are many, not just the Barrage.

Guide has no effect on template weapons. It gives you re-rolls; it does not twin-link.

The Nightspinner's gun is nowhere near as good as the Heldrake's against MEQs. The Heldrake inflicts .83 wounds on every T4 3+ model hit, regardless of cover. The Nightspinner's torrent inflicts .39 wounds on every T4 3+ model hit, regardless of cover. The Spinner isn't even better against Crisis Suits, though it comes close unless some wounds are allocated to drones.

Gosh, you're right. I totally mixed it up because in the last codex I always used Guide and Doom and for a second there thought it was Guide that twin-links the templates, but it was actually Doom that made them re-roll failed wounds.

pantsonhead wrote:Guide has no effect on template weapons. It gives you re-rolls; it does not twin-link.

The Nightspinner's gun is nowhere near as good as the Heldrake's against MEQs. The Heldrake inflicts .83 wounds on every T4 3+ model hit, regardless of cover. The Nightspinner's torrent inflicts .39 wounds on every T4 3+ model hit, regardless of cover. The Spinner isn't even better against Crisis Suits, though it comes close unless some wounds are allocated to drones.

Araenion wrote:Gosh, you're right. I totally mixed it up because in the last codex I always used Guide and Doom and for a second there thought it was Guide that twin-links the templates, but it was actually Doom that made them re-roll failed wounds.

BGB, page 33, Blast & Large Blast, Blast weapons and re-rolls
"If a model has the ability to re-roll its To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and 2d6"
So you don't need TL, just reoll to hits.

Fire prism bring versatility its the same as a missile launcher you can do any of its jobs cheaper with other unit but it gives you options. Which competatively is always nice when you don't know what your facing.

This is a template, not blast...it hits automatically exactly where you want it.

A twin-linked template re-rolls to-wound or armour pen rolls.
But, neither power makes it twin-linked, and is useless for template weapons.

Except Doom makes you re-roll To-Wound rolls, which template does make, hence it's in essence, twin-linked.

In regards to the WK discussion hear is how I will put it as : prox it till your hear is content. Just get a flyng base and measure up 9 in. He isnt for everyne and i personally like him. I will also be taking him to a GT ( a week from now) to see how he really puts out and i will be providing batreps.