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I might point out that the rumors have already said that BT keep using their own allies chart. That's hardly far-fetched - all it needs is a single sentence in our section of the new codex to say as much.

So amid all the news on the new units and traits, am I correct in thinking that most units already in the current book are pretty well unchanged in the new one despite the odd points cost change?

Crazyterran wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 SickSix wrote:

(Is it possible for White Scars to run an all bike army) Yes but you have to take 2 captains so you can get two bike squads to be troops.

This is total crap. So WS players have their entire collection invalidated (those that did build bike armies). So now they will have to run CA to run a 'fluffy' army.

Having to add in an extra HQ doesn't invalidate your entire colection. It just requires a re-jig of your army list. Something that pretty much everyone has to do every single time any codex is revised.

Wrong. I have 7 units of Bikes. They could be fielded legally in the current book. You can get at most 5 in the new Codex, and requires me going and making another Captain to do so. Are you telling me that the money and effort I put on those 20 Bikes is no reason for me to be pissed off about this?

Well, 18 bikes, and I'm sure by the time you are at 50 Bikes/Attack Bikes + Biker Captain, you are in double Force Org chart at that point anyways.

So, no, not really.

EDIT: Well, I did some of the math, and if you went exclusively bikes, no other support, I suppose that might screw you over.

Never mind that we also had other Fast Attack units that we can throw in the garbage now because our old Troops suddenly eat up all the FA slots.

I simply refuse to buy the UM 're-roll' rumour. I have 6 full tactical squads in blue and gold, and there's NO WAY I'm that lucky.

Even if it is only the bolters...

I was actually expecting a leadership/morale rule like Sicarius and Calgar both grant. Or maybe a synergy effect when certain units work together.

This supposed rule is more like my just reward for putting up with all the anti-smurf hate I've dealt with over the last 18 years. Never going to happen. Relax guys.

Precisely. I will admit, I mucked up the simplest math in my last post (joys of the early morning) and it is 10 Bikes I should have said, not 20, however that's €113 worth of models on top of the two Storm Talons I neglected to mention.

I'll certainly get on with it, try and build an alternative list with the new book, and if that fails just use DA, but that doesn't change the fact it was a low move by GW and people shouldn't be telling us WS fans not to be very pissed off about it. This isn't the same as your favourite unit getting nerfed and you deciding of your own free will to change it after all.

So.. all the chapters more or less follow the codex astartes yet Ultramarines get 3 chapter tactics they can pick from that are all good while others get total garbage? Seems odd for Marines with fairly similar training..

The big problem with the WS thing is that it does less than a basic SM bike captain.

I mean, objectively, it looks like the rules got reversed, a bike captain should make one unit of bikes troops, while a WS captain should make ALL bikes troops, and allow an all bike army.

Honestly, it just looks like the IF vs. UM Tactical rule, in that it looks like they balanced the IF/WS one for the game and specifically reigned it in to make sure it wasn't OP (if the rumors of them not allowing special ammo rerolls is true), and then COMPLETELY IGNORED that for the UM/ standard Bike Captain rules.

Basically, the way the rumors are right now, it looks like ultrasmurfs get all the love.

In other news, water is freakin' wet.

And while they're at it, they should do the SM bike captain thing with Sternguard (along with Pedro making ALL Sternguard troops), Assault Marines/Vanguard (along with Shrike making ALL assault marines/vanguard troops), and Terminators. One unit of those guys as troops from a SM Captain decked out in the right gear hardly unbalances the codex.

 Kirasu wrote:
So.. all the chapters more or less follow the codex astartes yet Ultramarines get 3 chapter tactics they can pick from that are all good while others get total garbage? Seems odd for Marines with fairly similar training..

Only if you somehow are concerned with what colour your Marines are.

I have no problem with chopping and changing what chapter rules my Raven Guard will use, as I have fun experimenting with lists and will try all sorts from bike lists to footslogging lists.

As long as its clearly explained, neither will any reasonable opponent.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 SickSix wrote:

(Is it possible for White Scars to run an all bike army) Yes but you have to take 2 captains so you can get two bike squads to be troops.

This is total crap. So WS players have their entire collection invalidated (those that did build bike armies). So now they will have to run CA to run a 'fluffy' army.

Having to add in an extra HQ doesn't invalidate your entire colection. It just requires a re-jig of your army list. Something that pretty much everyone has to do every single time any codex is revised.

Wrong. I have 7 units of Bikes. They could be fielded legally in the current book. You can get at most 5 in the new Codex, and requires me going and making another Captain to do so. Are you telling me that the money and effort I put on those 20 Bikes is no reason for me to be pissed off about this?

20 bikes is two squads?

 Kirasu wrote:
So.. all the chapters more or less follow the codex astartes yet Ultramarines get 3 chapter tactics they can pick from that are all good while others get total garbage? Seems odd for Marines with fairly similar training..

You can use any CT for any Chapter you damn well please. As long as you opponent knows what he's dealing with, there's no problem whatsoever.

DogofWar1 wrote:
The big problem with the WS thing is that it does less than a basic SM bike captain.
I mean, objectively, it looks like the rules got reversed, a bike captain should make one unit of bikes troops, while a WS captain should make ALL bikes troops, and allow an all bike army.
Honestly, it just looks like the IF vs. UM Tactical rule, in that it looks like they balanced the IF/WS one for the game and specifically reigned it in to make sure it wasn't OP (if the rumors of them not allowing special ammo rerolls is true), and then COMPLETELY IGNORED that for the UM/ standard Bike Captain rules.
Basically, the way the rumors are right now, it looks like ultrasmurfs get all the love.
In other news, water is freakin' wet.
And while they're at it, they should do the SM bike captain thing with Sternguard (along with Pedro making ALL Sternguard troops), Assault Marines/Vanguard (along with Shrike making ALL assault marines/vanguard troops), and Terminators. One unit of those guys as troops from a SM Captain decked out in the right gear hardly unbalances the codex.

Wait, I thought the rules said you needed a SM-HQ on a bike and not a SM-Captain on a bike?

That would be pretty sweet: Biker Chaplains that unlock a bike squad as troops. Hells Angels SM anyone?

Being a UM player I'm all over these traits like Eamon Holmes on a plate of chips, but by Christ do I feel sorry for the other chapters.

 His Master's Voice wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:
So.. all the chapters more or less follow the codex astartes yet Ultramarines get 3 chapter tactics they can pick from that are all good while others get total garbage? Seems odd for Marines with fairly similar training..

You can use any CT for any Chapter you damn well please. As long as you opponent knows what he's dealing with, there's no problem whatsoever.

Technically we could use the bloody Eldar codex if we wanted to, the point is why bother putting out faction-specific rules to offer people choice if they're so poorly balanced that it's a false choice? Not only are the UM traits clearly superior individually, they essentially allow an UM player to list-tailor even in an environment where they'd be otherwise unable to do so. Further, while the UM rules are good from a gameplay perspective, they don't fit every Marine force thematically.

Kangodo wrote:

Wait, I thought the rules said you needed a SM-HQ on a bike and not a SM-Captain on a bike?

I'm not sure which one, and we can't be certain until the book drops, but either way it's still a big slap in the face of WS.


As for just playing armies with different coloring, that's fine, but it's really dumb that you give chapters special rules based on what they're supposed to be good at (WS bikes, IF bolter drill) and then give UM and standard SM better rules.

And there are some rules problems too, like what if I want to run a Sternwing with Pedro, am I stuck with the inferior chapter tactics. After all, if the rumors are true, we can't reroll special ammo with IF, but we can with UM, so I have to choose between an inferior chapter tactics and stern as scoring (not even as troops) or a superior chapter tactics, but being forced to take fewer scoring sternguard.

So my Raven Guard CT is useless?

DogofWar1 wrote:

Kangodo wrote:

Wait, I thought the rules said you needed a SM-HQ on a bike and not a SM-Captain on a bike?

I'm not sure which one, and we can't be certain until the book drops, but either way it's still a big slap in the face of WS.


As for just playing armies with different coloring, that's fine, but it's really dumb that you give chapters special rules based on what they're supposed to be good at (WS bikes, IF bolter drill) and then give UM and standard SM better rules.

And there are some rules problems too, like what if I want to run a Sternwing with Pedro, am I stuck with the inferior chapter tactics. After all, if the rumors are true, we can't reroll special ammo with IF, but we can with UM, so I have to choose between an inferior chapter tactics and stern as scoring (not even as troops) or a superior chapter tactics, but being forced to take fewer scoring sternguard.

Why would you be? As long as it's marked on your army list what Traits you are using, it should be fine.

Unless they turn back the clock and restrict special characters per chapter again, which would be incredibly dumb. After all, even in the DA codex, it says that you can sub belial to represent a different successor chapter's First Captain.

If I want Captain Agemman to be represented by Pedro Kantor's rules, why shouldn't I be allowed to? Vice Versa, if I wanted the IF Chapter Master to be represented by Marneus Calgar, I should be allowed to do that as well.

Nocturnus wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:
Just a little info on the two AA tanks:

They're AV12/12/10 and NEITHER has Interceptor.

I think they're fine as is. Interceptor+Armourbane? I think that would be very strong. Too strong in fact.

without interceptor they cannot fire at ground targets with full BS. So you take one in your TAC list and then your opponent has no flyers. Sucks to be you.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278011-new-codex-space-marines-rumor/page-68#entry3420390

Nice compilation with some info I hadn't seen before. If this is accurate, White Scars might work out OK. Would require a little bit of tweaking from pure bike though. I'm not a fan of the one squad=troops if that comes to pass, not from a list building POV, but from a game play one. Which of your identical bike squads zooming across the table is the one that can score as a troop pick? What a headache...

WHITE SCARS CHAPTER TRAITS:
+1 to Jink saves
Autopass Dangerous Terrain tests
+1 to Hammer Of Wrath attacks
All White Scars units gain the Hit & Run USR, except for Terminators and Centurions.
KOR'SARRO KAHN:
Khan gives Bikes and Dedicated Transports in the White Scars detachment the Scout USR.
Moondraken inflicts D3 Hammer Of Wrath hits.

 Exergy wrote:

Nocturnus wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:
Just a little info on the two AA tanks:

They're AV12/12/10 and NEITHER has Interceptor.

I think they're fine as is. Interceptor+Armourbane? I think that would be very strong. Too strong in fact.

without interceptor they cannot fire at ground targets with full BS. So you take one in your TAC list and then your opponent has no flyers. Sucks to be you.

Isn't it supposed to be an anti-air gun though? I thought one of them was a flak gun of sorts. Why would I want to shoot those at the ground?

Well it is also possible that these CT are just a taste of what is to come. There maybe way more for each CT then has been leaked.

 tvih wrote:
I might point out that the rumors have already said that BT keep using their own allies chart. That's hardly far-fetched - all it needs is a single sentence in our section of the new codex to say as much.

Shame :(

I was hoping to use my Sisters alongside my Templars - like in all the fluff that GW/BL out out and not counter to it.................

ignore that..

As long as they allow you to mix characters and tactics, then it'll be alright; I'd be able to run my Pedrowing with UM tactics, but it.s possible they might force you into IF ct if you take pedro or lysander, and that would be very problematic.

I hope that is not the case.

Pardon me, maybe I missed it, but don't you think the White Scars will have the bike option fixed in the supplement. I know it sucks to have to buy 2 codexes but your army should be fine.

 Kirasu wrote:
So.. all the chapters more or less follow the codex astartes yet Ultramarines get 3 chapter tactics they can pick from that are all good while others get total garbage? Seems odd for Marines with fairly similar training..

GW fing loves them ultramarines

 ausYenLoWang wrote:
wait whats to stop it shooting at ground targets?

Technically? Nothing, but the complaint was that if you take these anti-air guns and they don't have interceptor, they can't fire at ground targets at full BS...

 Nevelon wrote:
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278011-new-codex-space-marines-rumor/page-68#entry3420390

Nice compilation with some info I hadn't seen before. If this is accurate, White Scars might work out OK. Would require a little bit of tweaking from pure bike though. I'm not a fan of the one squad=troops if that comes to pass, not from a list building POV, but from a game play one. Which of your identical bike squads zooming across the table is the one that can score as a troop pick? What a headache...

WHITE SCARS CHAPTER TRAITS:
+1 to Jink saves
Autopass Dangerous Terrain tests
+1 to Hammer Of Wrath attacks
All White Scars units gain the Hit & Run USR, except for Terminators and Centurions.
KOR'SARRO KAHN:
Khan gives Bikes and Dedicated Transports in the White Scars detachment the Scout USR.
Moondraken inflicts D3 Hammer Of Wrath hits.

So WS don't suck?

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

Nocturnus wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:
Just a little info on the two AA tanks:

They're AV12/12/10 and NEITHER has Interceptor.

I think they're fine as is. Interceptor+Armourbane? I think that would be very strong. Too strong in fact.

without interceptor they cannot fire at ground targets with full BS. So you take one in your TAC list and then your opponent has no flyers. Sucks to be you.

Isn't it supposed to be an anti-air gun though? I thought one of them was a flak gun of sorts. Why would I want to shoot those at the ground?

yes it is an anti air gun, and it looks like it might actually be good at it's job depending on the price. but people arent going to take too many of them if they are basically boned if the enemy doesnt have skimmers or flyers.

You mean you have to have a balanced list and not every toy will be effective against every target?

The shame of it all...