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I would not say that the Ultra-Smurfs are “Superior to the other with the Chapter Tactics, but might be a play style thing.
A] Tactical: To take full advantage of this one you will have to take Lots of Tactical Squads, eating into t the points that are available.
B] Assault: This is great if you are planning on taking a Bikes or Assault Squads, but to take full advantage of this you are going to have to spend a lot of points on a lot fewer models.
D]Devastator: This is the best one in my opinion, but 3 squads of Devastators means there is a lot you are not going to be taking. Though I do love the though of Relentless Plasma Cannons.

Now as a Gunline Player who uses Tactical Squads and Devastators as my core I love A & C, but two is useless to me. When I am in the mood for Assaulting I will just play a Shrike List, pull out my Blood Angles, Grey Knights or Space Wolves.

Disclaimer: I do tend to play more Fluffy Armies.

 d-usa wrote:

So WS don't suck?

Compared to other chapters, no.
Compared to Ultramarines, hell yes.

Scout moves, auto pass difficult terrain tests, improved jinks saves are all less beneficial than "reroll how many bolters in a WS list"?

Considering that I've been able to hose WS players with my TFC by making them take lots of difficult terrain tests I think they are pretty good traits.

Crazyterran wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I think im drooling. I want that now. Im going to have to convert one but im making it. Even is i have ot use a paint dropper as the cannon.

Seeing as the tank's are currently shooting at ground targets at BS1, they are meh.

They look amazing, though.

They still hit skimmers on regular BS, though. And with Serpent spam and tau tank spam...

 Anpu42 wrote:

A] Tactical: To take full advantage of this one you will have to take Lots of Tactical Squads, eating into t the points that are available.

You will have some tactical squads anyway, and this will make them way more effective. And it makes you other squads more effective too, Sternguard, Terminators (all those units IF Bolter Drill doesn't work on as they thought it would be too good!), devastators and PLASMA ARMED COMMAND SQUADS! This pretty much negates the weakness of plasma weapons.

I really, really hope that his trait has been reported wrong, all other chapters seem decently balanced to each other, but this is just way too good, making the others false choices. Not to mention that re-rolling for entire army slows down the game a lot.

 Anpu42 wrote:
I would not say that the Ultra-Smurfs are “Superior to the other with the Chapter Tactics, but might be a play style thing.
A] Tactical: To take full advantage of this one you will have to take Lots of Tactical Squads, eating into t the points that are available.
B] Assault: This is great if you are planning on taking a Bikes or Assault Squads, but to take full advantage of this you are going to have to spend a lot of points on a lot fewer models.
D]Devastator: This is the best one in my opinion, but 3 squads of Devastators means there is a lot you are not going to be taking. Though I do love the though of Relentless Plasma Cannons.

Now as a Gunline Player who uses Tactical Squads and Devastators as my core I love A & C, but two is useless to me. When I am in the mood for Assaulting I will just play a Shrike List, pull out my Blood Angles, Grey Knights or Space Wolves.

Disclaimer: I do tend to play more Fluffy Armies.

Rerolling half my misses with non-tactical squads (and all of them with Tactical Squads) is still a hell of a lot better than rerolling snap shots/overwatches with non-devastators. And, since the Relentless doesn't work when you come out of a Drop Pod, there's pretty much no reason your Devastators really need to move, since who the hell gave them Multi-Meltas anyways?

I suppose it'd be fun to have a Lascannon bunker in a Rhino.

 d-usa wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278011-new-codex-space-marines-rumor/page-68#entry3420390

Nice compilation with some info I hadn't seen before. If this is accurate, White Scars might work out OK. Would require a little bit of tweaking from pure bike though. I'm not a fan of the one squad=troops if that comes to pass, not from a list building POV, but from a game play one. Which of your identical bike squads zooming across the table is the one that can score as a troop pick? What a headache...

WHITE SCARS CHAPTER TRAITS:
+1 to Jink saves
Autopass Dangerous Terrain tests
+1 to Hammer Of Wrath attacks
All White Scars units gain the Hit & Run USR, except for Terminators and Centurions.
KOR'SARRO KAHN:
Khan gives Bikes and Dedicated Transports in the White Scars detachment the Scout USR.
Moondraken inflicts D3 Hammer Of Wrath hits.

So WS don't suck?

Damn, White Scars essentially get H&R, Skilled Rider, and double Hammer of Wrath attacks? That's pretty damn good. Not to mention, with Khan, they get to be cheaper Ravenwing.

Hell, 4+ Jink Saves on Speeders / LSS is pretty awesome too.

So is the Crusader entry a separate entry from a tactical squad? Weird.

 d-usa wrote:
You mean you have to have a balanced list and not every toy will be effective against every target?

The shame of it all...

I guess the question is if it will be priced appropriately for a unit that has the potential to be firing at BS1 all game. If you need to spend 500 points to get reliable anti-flier in your list, but it turns out that your reliable anti-flier is mostly useless against armies with no fliers it's a pretty crappy idea. If it only costs 250, sure, I'll take it; that's not too many points to tie up.

It's a bit like the meltaguns I've tossed on my Ravenwing bikes. Sure, it's not very useful against many lists (I mean, yeah, it's going to kill that one Ork D-E-D dead, but so would the twin-linked bolter that I'd probably be shooting instead) but I'm not sinking a lot of points into it. If those meltaguns cost 50 points each, they'd still be sitting in my bits box.

I think it was mentioned earlier in the thread that one of the varieties was 70pts. (I think it was the one shot version, not sure which.)

Anyone else notice that the Salamanders having re-rolls on to wound and armour penetration rolls applies to, per the rulebook, melta weapons as well? Yes, melta weapons count as flame-based weapons per the rulebook, page 56!

 Lansirill wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
You mean you have to have a balanced list and not every toy will be effective against every target?

The shame of it all...

I guess the question is if it will be priced appropriately for a unit that has the potential to be firing at BS1 all game. If you need to spend 500 points to get reliable anti-flier in your list, but it turns out that your reliable anti-flier is mostly useless against armies with no fliers it's a pretty crappy idea. If it only costs 250, sure, I'll take it; that's not too many points to tie up.

It's a bit like the meltaguns I've tossed on my Ravenwing bikes. Sure, it's not very useful against many lists (I mean, yeah, it's going to kill that one Ork D-E-D dead, but so would the twin-linked bolter that I'd probably be shooting instead) but I'm not sinking a lot of points into it. If those meltaguns cost 50 points each, they'd still be sitting in my bits box.

Well, if it was 500 points, it'd be easier and better to just take the Storm Raven, which is probably GW's ploy to get us to buy that flying toaster...

 d-usa wrote:
You mean you have to have a balanced list and not every toy will be effective against every target?

The shame of it all...

I think it's fair and nice.

Some of the other rumored rules sound OP but I am willing to wait for the codex.

 Nevelon wrote:
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278011-new-codex-space-marines-rumor/page-68#entry3420390

Wait what? Vanguard Veterans cannot charge after Deep Striking?

 Crimson wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

A] Tactical: To take full advantage of this one you will have to take Lots of Tactical Squads, eating into t the points that are available.

You will have some tactical squads anyway, and this will make them way more effective. And it makes you other squads more effective too, Sternguard, Terminators (all those units IF Bolter Drill doesn't work on as they thought it would be too good!), devastators and PLASMA ARMED COMMAND SQUADS! This pretty much negates the weakness of plasma weapons.

I really, really hope that his trait has been reported wrong, all other chapters seem decently balanced to each other, but this is just way too good, making the others false choices. Not to mention that re-rolling for entire army slows down the game a lot.

1st, you pretty much described my normal Marine List.
True, but will every list be this way?
Personally I don’t think so.
As far as the Weakness of the Plasma, this is something I have always lived with and find this will be nice, but not the Holy Grail. I have negated the 4x Plasma Gun Command Squad with a Apothecary so the Really Nice thing about this will just be more chances to hit.

Crazyterran wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
I said Stuff

Rerolling half my misses with non-tactical squads (and all of them with Tactical Squads) is still a hell of a lot better than rerolling snap shots/overwatches with non-devastators. And, since the Relentless doesn't work when you come out of a Drop Pod, there's pretty much no reason your Devastators really need to move, since who the hell gave them Multi-Meltas anyways?
I suppose it'd be fun to have a Lascannon bunker in a Rhino.

There is one of marine player who runs a 10 man, 4x MM Devastator Squad, with a Tech Marine and some ruins near the Middle of the table makes them a primary target, but it takes some real resources to dislodge them.

I was thinking 2x Plasma Cannons out of a Rhino!

I just think all these [All the Chapter Tactics] will be Game Changers not Game Breakers.

Caederes wrote:
Anyone else notice that the Salamanders having re-rolls on to wound and armour penetration rolls applies to, per the rulebook, melta weapons as well? Yes, melta weapons count as flame-based weapons per the rulebook, page 56!

Care to elaborate?

Kangodo wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278011-new-codex-space-marines-rumor/page-68#entry3420390

Wait what? Vanguard Veterans cannot charge after Deep Striking?

but cost 8 points less with jump packs

Vanguard Vets with Shrike to build an improvised Shrike Wing seems like a real possibility for me now...

Well re-rolling armor pen with a flamer is going to be useless unless you can get behind the vehicle, assuming its AV 10. So unless they expect you to take a lot more heavy flamers, or count melta as flame, re-rolling armor pen is not going to come up that often. Now re-rolling to wound is awesome, especially if you can get it on an incinerator.

 Anpu42 wrote:


I just think all these [All the Chapter Tactics] will be Game Changers not Game Breakers.

Most of them are. Rerolls on all shooting in the army is game breaking though.

This what im tracking from BOLS

UNIT CHANGES
-Chaplains are HQ , W:2, A:2 and grant Zealot.
-Master of the Forge gains It Will Not Die
-Scouts drop 2 points, can take LS Storm as a dedicated transport.
-Tacticals drop 2 points.
-Devastators drop 2 points.
-Sternguard drop 3 points.
-Vanguard drop 1 point, jumppack option drops 7 points.
-Honour guard are cheaper.
-SM Bikes drop 4 points.
-Hunter/Stalker re both armed with s:7 weapons (Stalker heavy4, Hunter heavy1). The Hunter's weapon is AP:2 Armorbane.
-Command Squads may take bikes, and a bike-equipped Commander makes a SM Biker unit troops.
-Crusader Squads may take 2 power weapons per squad. Costed and equipped as Tacticals as standard. May swap out for BP/CCW for free. Max size 10 Initiates and 10 Neophytes.
-Centurions WS4 BS4 S5 T5 W2 I4 Ld8/9 Sv2, Squad size 3-6, each costed as a Predator.


CHAPTER ABILITIES
- Raven Guard have Stealth, may use jump packs in movement AND assault phase.
- Imperial Fists reroll '1s' to hit with standard bolters (Bolter Drill). Devatators/Centurions have Tank Hunters and +1 on the building damage table.
- Salamanders reroll failed to-wounds with flame weapons, and failed armor penetration rolls versus vehicles. Characters gain a free master crafted weapon. Vulkan is the only way to grant twin-linked meltas.
- Black Templars have Chapter Tactics options instead of Vows. The Emperor's Champion is an HQ choice for them only and chooses from either (reroll failed to-hits plus rending in challenges), or (gain Adamantium Will plus Crusader). No Librarians allowed.
- Ultramarines choose from one of the following donctrines:
a) Tactical - Re-roll ones, unless they're Tactical marines and they re-roll all shooting failed to hits.
b) Assault - Re-roll charge distance, unless they're Assault squads, Bikes, Attack bikes who gain Fleet.
c) Devstator - Re-roll on snap shots and overwatch, unless they're Devastators who gain Relentless (except when disembarking).
- White Scars bike equipped Captain makes 1 bike squad troops
- Successor Chapter use the Chapter Tactics of their Founding Chapter. Many Successor Chapters are listed by name.

NEW ITEMS
6 new Chapter Relics
Grav Weapons have Concussive

CHARACTERS
-Marneus Calgar may take 3 Warlord Traits and is pricier.
-Korsarro Khan grants Scout to mounted troops and bikes. He inflicts D3 Hammer of Wrath hits.
-Kayvan Shrike may Infiltrate with Jumppack units.
-Emperor's Champion equipped with AP:2 sword, armor is 2+/4+i
-High-Marshal Helbrecht grants Hatred and Fleet to Black Templars in the Assault phase once per game.
-Lysander returns with Eternal Warrior, Units in 12" re-roll on morale and pinning test.
-Grimaldus Grants Zealot to his unit.
-Several Named Characters retain USRs that affect their entire army.

Imperial Deceit wrote:
Well it is also possible that these CT are just a taste of what is to come. There maybe way more for each CT then has been leaked.

For the sake of IF and IH, I bloody well hope so. Having read that roundup, it turns out that the most thematic HQ for IH, the MotF, comes with our supposedly special Chapter Tactic by default for every flavour of Marines, and in exchange he gets....+1 to repair rolls. Seriously I don't get this; they managed to look at BT and go "OK, so we give them their special thing(Crusaders), and we say 'no libbies', sorted", yet they were apparently incapable of looking at IH and saying "OK, so we give them their special thing(Rites of Battle/Zealot on MotF/Techmarines), and we say 'no chappies', sorted".

IF arguably have it even worse than us, since at least there might be some IWND Dreadnaught/Techmarine shenanigans to try, while they essentially get stuck with weaksauce versions of Ultramarines traits. Bolter Drill is a worse version of Tactical Doctrine, and Relentless Devs and Centurion devs is infinitely more useful than Tank Hunter, especially given the paucity of armour in a lot of 6th Edition regional metas.

If the WS stuff is true I'm just in straight up love with them. Granted I'm also in love with the sallies ones and I've always loved sternguard so I guess we're just going to have to see how this all turns out. Seems like tons of options and a solid book based on the rumours. But so did Cruddaces Nids before we saw point values.

 Exergy wrote:
but cost 9 points less with jump packs

But the ability to charge after DS'ing was the only reason why I would want to buy them

Caederes wrote:
Anyone else notice that the Salamanders having re-rolls on to wound and armour penetration rolls applies to, per the rulebook, melta weapons as well? Yes, melta weapons count as flame-based weapons per the rulebook, page 56!

Would love to believe you.....but my copy doesnt have Melta Guns in the Flamer section on page 56. It starts with Hand Flamer and goes down through Flamespurts and Incinerator and finished as the Flamestorm Cannon with nary a mention of Melta.

Edit: In fact the Meltas seems to be in the next page, under "Melta Weapons"

If the Vanguard vets lose Heroic intervention it kind of defeats their purpose. Assault marines will always be cheaper.

 Vain wrote:
Would love to believe you.....but my copy doesnt have Melta Guns in the Flamer section on page 56. It starts with Hand Flamer and goes down through Flamespurts and Incinerator and finished as the Flamestorm Cannon with nary a mention of Melta.

The Necron-codex has an ability called "Lord of Flame" and it says it works against "all flamer weapons (insert examples, 'even this and this' and all weapons using flame or fire in effect or ruling) and weapons with the melta type.."
So I don't think melta counts as a 'flamer weapon'.

Imperial Deceit wrote:
If the Vanguard vets lose Heroic intervention it kind of defeats their purpose. Assault marines will always be cheaper.

Always look on the bright side of things: Now I just saved myself 36 euro!

Imperial Deceit wrote:
If the Vanguard vets lose Heroic intervention it kind of defeats their purpose. Assault marines will always be cheaper.

If the price changes are true, they won't be that much cheaper, and don't Vanguard get 2 base attacks instead of 1, as well as a lot more weapons options? Seems like that might be worth the extra 4-5 points or whatever.

 Exergy wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:


I just think all these [All the Chapter Tactics] will be Game Changers not Game Breakers.

Most of them are. Rerolls on all shooting in the army is game breaking though.

Yes you will get some masively Accrate shooting before you die quickly to all of the AP3 Ignore Cover Weapons.

anyone know if Chapter tactics will be something you have to put down on your list when you make it, or something that you can select at the table when you see who your facing?

If WS require 2 captains on bikes to get 2 troop choices, of bikers, it means they can't legally take a libby or chappie on bike, correct? there goes my idea of kit bashing them...

Buuuut, it means WS can take 2 honour guards....