Codex: Space Marines [First post updated 27-08-2013 - Leaked White Dwarf images added]

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**FlingitNow**

While I know that there will be a supplement for IH and that there will probably be a few SCs (here's hoping for a techmarine dreadnought) in there, I think they shouldn't have put in the UM SCs as there will be an UM supplement at some stage as well

Yeah remove rules for models lots of people have bought. That's a great way to not alienate your customer base. GW was never going to remove the Characters they already have models for, they've done that in the past to massive outcry from everyone. When the supplements come out they can add more characters. So the only way to do what you're suggesting would be to release UM supplement alongside the main codex, to reduce the UM bias....

As for the rumoured rules I personally would be shocked if they hit the shelves as printed here. Tac marines won't get blanket rerolls to hit. I can see these doctrines existing but in a one use bubble effect probably from a Captain (would give you a reason to take one) with the CM having a boosted bubble or the ability to do multiple doctrines.

Let's see what happens when the book lands. They need to do something to help tactical marines (smashing Scouts with the nerf bat in 6th ed rules wasn't for me the answer). The points will go in line with the DA book we know that. But until we see how these rules work and what synergy there is in the codex and with wargear.

**Andy089**

FlingitNow wrote:
While I know that there will be a supplement for IH and that there will probably be a few SCs (here's hoping for a techmarine dreadnought) in there, I think they shouldn't have put in the UM SCs as there will be an UM supplement at some stage as well

Yeah remove rules for models lots of people have bought. That's a great way to not alienate your customer base. GW was never going to remove the Characters they already have models for, they've done that in the past to massive outcry from everyone. When the supplements come out they can add more characters. So the only way to do what you're suggesting would be to release UM supplement alongside the main codex, to reduce the UM bias....

As for the rumoured rules I personally would be shocked if they hit the shelves as printed here. Tac marines won't get blanket rerolls to hit. I can see these doctrines existing but in a one use bubble effect probably from a Captain (would give you a reason to take one) with the CM having a boosted bubble or the ability to do multiple doctrines.

Let's see what happens when the book lands. They need to do something to help tactical marines (smashing Scouts with the nerf bat in 6th ed rules wasn't for me the answer). The points will go in line with the DA book we know that. But until we see how these rules work and what synergy there is in the codex and with wargear.

Iron Father? All models could in the meantime be used as "usual" chapter masters, captains and sergeants. By the looks of it librarians with stormshields won't be available in the new codex...

This wouldn't be the first sub-ideal business decision of GW while I don't think it's a bad decision as people who want to use Calgar, Telion and the others will buy the UM supplement.

**FlingitNow**

Which would mean releasing the UM supplement alongside the main codex. To universal uproar. Or dropping rules for all those Special Characters, to universal uproar...

Talk about spitting your dummy out. "The niche chapter I collect doesnt have SC so they should drop the rules for all the most popular SCs for other chapters..."

The Iron hands are getting a much better look in with this codex than they ever had. A Supplement will further improve it. Why would taking options away from others be a good idea?

**AlmightyWalrus**

Isean wrote:
I guess I am a bit of a role player kind of guy. I play Black Templars, have the Helbrecht model and never use him...because that marshal on the field? Thats my representative. I dont want a guy who already has a name and fluff, I want to be the one making the fluff for my dudes. So I honestly just don't get this recent SC conflict.

Anyways, a few BLack Templar questions:

1) I assume righteous zeal is gone? Can anyone verify? Because running forward in my opponent's shooting phase was beyond awesome for my close combat army.
2) Does anyone know if the BT are keeping the 5 man special/heavy weapons capability? Or will get get the minimum 10 restriction that everyone complains about?
3) Terminator squads, I used to be able to do 2 heavy weapons with 5 terminators, is that changing?
4) Will our squads finally get sergeants? As a BT I love my challenges but I only have like 3 characters max that can challenge right now.
5) Anyone heard about whats going on with the Sword Brethren unit? Right now its worth less than dirt in game...but those models are just so awesome. At worst I hope I can just use them as sergeant models.
6) And lastly, my custom Marshal is modelled with a lightning claw and a storm shield...because I could take those with the old Armoury setup where he could just pick and choose. Is that still going to be a legal setup? I havent even touched the other SM codices to see what their HQs could take. I would hate to shelve him (I am NOT taking him apart) Oh, and I have a termie chaplain with a crozius and a power axe...is that likely to be legal with the update? Because its awesome right now

Note: I also feel as though rolling them up in the C:SM codex was a great way to expand on them, and potentially fix them...but I dont think thats happening. Maybe I am wrong, but I feel as though we will again NOT be designed as a close combat army, regardless of the stuff happening to them.

CT for Crusader is nice, re-rolling run moves will potentially help me get closer to the enemy for the charge...but I STILL cant run and charge, so largely pointless. With righteous zeal I had a move, run and another separate run in the enemy phase potentially so overall crusader I feel is a worse option.

CT for Adamantine Will for the army is great...not too gamebreaking as most psykers just buff themselves rather than attack an enemy. And its SUPER fluffy, which I love.

Or take the OTHER CT for Rending in challenges is ok relying on one thing. We DO have sergeants in our squads now right? Also the re-roll to hits I am hearing about. Is it only in close combat? And is it ALSO for just the challenges, or for everyone in the army? Big questions that need some answers eventually.

For an army that is supposed to be super close combat oriented, I am still not seeing how to get them into close combat...and even IF they DO get there, I fear they are weaker than they EVER were before. Before 6th every BT could have PE in close combat, which was awesome. Then 6th and the FAQ came out and the most common Vow allowed Rage, which was a bonus attack on the charge? Not as good, but still a huge difference in assault outcomes. And most of the assaulting units in BT could take furious charge for an even better assault. Now from the rumors, I am gathering I get no close combat bonuses aside from rerolling runs, and rerolling to hits (Potentially ONLY in challenges), My assault terminators will be more expensive and so far have nothing to say they can take furious charge. I lose my rage vow. I lose righteous zeal too. I feel as if we may be getting even further from the fluff with BT as an assaulting army.

And one of the bigger notes missing in the BT rumors? "No pity, no remorse, no fear." The ability that made EVERY Templar fearless in close combat. Even to the point where you CANT take "Our weapons are useless" I LOVED being fearless in close combat, it was one of the biggest fluff pieces the Black Templars had going for them!

When I originally heard BT were rolled into C:SM I was pumped for new toys and new tactics and more consistant updates...but I am growing more concerned the closer we come to the day of release. I will hold off disappointment or joy until I know for sure...but I am feeling very skeptical on the future of my Angry Sci-Fi Space Crusaders.

Your post sums up how I feel about the Templars too. From what we know so far, it looks as though the CC prowess of the Black Templars has been nerfed pretty hard. Slower into CC, less attacks on the charge and no longer Fearless in CC. We're more or less losing half our Special Rules, which is exactly what was predicted in pretty much every "fold BT into the Vanilla Codex!!!11!" thread the last year. I'm hoping there's more stuff we don't know about yet (the Honor Guard is looking interesting if they can take a Drop Pod), but it looks like it's going to be an example of how NOT to fold a variant Chapter in.

**Devizz**

Is there any official release date for the new models?

**Kirasu**

While I know that there will be a supplement for IH and that there will probably be a few SCs (here's hoping for a techmarine dreadnought) in there, I think they shouldn't have put in the UM SCs as there will be an UM supplement at some stage as well

Yeah great idea, let's keep encouraging GW to price gouge on codices by releasing awfully written supplements for everything under the sun.

**Captain Vyper**

Devizz wrote:
Is there any official release date for the new models?

new stuff comes out the first Saturday of each month usually. So if these pics are from he next WD we should see them on the7th of September.

**ClockworkZion**

tomjoad wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:

Coming from playing Sisters I can't imagine anyone would want one if they had to pay 15-20 points for the thing though. Maybe if it were 10 like the Multi-Melta (that way it was pricier than a flamer, but not 4x as much for a single point of strength and AP improvement). Alright, I lied a little. I enjoyed using them as they were handy for all sorts of things, but not everyone agrees with me on their usefulness when a model goes from 12 points to 32 points with nary a real improvement but a 8" template that she may never get a chance to use. 34 points for a Tactical Marine with a Heavy Flamer doesn't sound that hot either.

Honestly, the difference is drop pods. In Blood Angels, I gladly use a five man squad with two hand flamers and a regular flamer in a pod. A triple-twin-linked-flamer squad in an Ultramarines list would probably be worth 15-20 for the heavy flamer against xenos armies.

Ah, that would make a little difference. Suicide Heavy Flamer. Still really flippin' expensive.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

tvih wrote:
Puscifer wrote:
I'm hoping Scouts still get the same bonus from cloaks so they can get a 2+ cover save in a ruin.

Well, even if it doesn't stack... that'd still be 2 points saved per scout.

Even more when you count in their points decrease!

**Andy089**

FlingitNow wrote:
Which would mean releasing the UM supplement alongside the main codex. To universal uproar. Or dropping rules for all those Special Characters, to universal uproar...

Talk about spitting your dummy out. "The niche chapter I collect doesnt have SC so they should drop the rules for all the most popular SCs for other chapters..."

The Iron hands are getting a much better look in with this codex than they ever had. A Supplement will further improve it. Why would taking options away from others be a good idea?

I haven't seen those UM SC models being used a lot, mostly counts-as.
Right now I'd be buying Codex: Ultramarines with "if you don't use any SCs you can change the chapter tactics to something not quite as good, but only if you paint them in colours of UM or UM successors" in it.

I can see any UM player or successor being ok with this and to be honest I like the CTs and that one can actually play different chapters and not multicoloured UMs but I would have liked to see an actual "base-codex" rather than another C:UM.

**Yodhrin**

CKO wrote:
Yodhrin wrote:

The problem is that most of the non-Ultras Tactics are situational in benefit, or require very specific army builds to use at anything even approaching their best

Bolter Drill for Imperial fist is not situational.

Raven Guard Stealth improves all cover saves and is not situational.

Specific army builds to take advantage of a Chapter's tactic is what you are suppose to do. Space wolves take advantage of grey hunters, Dark Angels take advantage of their bikes, blood angels take advantage of their fast vehicles its just what you do if you want a specific advantage. Ultra Marines have a Tactic that basically says build a list any list and our trait makes it better, while the others are take advantage of stealth, hit and run, it will not die, or tank hunters. Like you said its not that dramatic as people are making it seem. The only SC that everyone wants is Tigurius and rightfully so, but he is an ultra marine.

As easy as it is to come up for a reason fluff wise that your Chapter has someone like Tigurius, I can give you a reason why your Chapter does not have someone who is the most powerful psyker in the Imperium.

Just take it as is, each founding chapter is a separate codex.

You will note the word -most- in the sentence you quoted. As for Bolter Drill - you mean the inferior version of Tactical Doctrine? And the IF's other Tactics; the highly situational bonus against Fortifications, and the Tank Hunter benefit that requires them to load up on Devs and Centurion Devs to take advantage of. Stealth isn't situational, but taking full advantage of the Raven Guard Tactics means you better be cramming in as many jump-pack equipped Marines as you can, or you're wasting half of it(admittedly not as big a deal for RG, since Stealth is a solid USR).

Space Wolves are not limited to building around Grey Hunters, they can make Loganwing armies, Longfang-spam armies, Bloodclaw human-wave armies, or just a normal mixture of units, and will find all of them effective(albeit some more than others). Dark Angels get more than just the Ravenwing. Blood Angels aren't limited to vehicle-spam to be effective, they can run Death Co. lists, or footsloggers with FnP bubbles.

And as for SCs; who said all anyone wants is Tigurius? A friend of mine runs a Raven Guard 10th Company army, using Telion to represent the Company Captain since he always thought it was moronic to send a lumbering Power Armoured leader and his command squad along with a lightning infiltration force - now he has to choose between the rules for his chapter or the rules for his commander. I spent £40 on bitz to build my counts-as Pedro Kantor so I could play some games with scoring Sternguard. I once fought against a beautifully converted Ultramarines army themed around Tyranid Hunters, led by a not-Lysander and his shooty-Terminator bodyguard. That's the reason people are annoyed that Special Characters are getting taken away from some of us - not just because they give a clear mechanical advantage to those chapters with more of them, but because many of them were and still are the only way to represent certain types of character which are by no means exclusive to one chapter.

**d-usa**

Is there an option to run the codex without any CT?

Other than CT it can still be Codex: Counts-As. You can make your army anything you want, and run SC in your army all you want.

The only change in the Codex is that it seems like you can't be Chapter McAwesome with White Scars Chapter Traits and Ultramarine Special Characters. But that's not really anything new since in the previous Codex CT (or the closest mechanism like it) was tied to the special characters to begin with.

Each Founding Chapter is pretty much getting their own Codex now, compiled into this bigger Codex: Mostly Following The Codex Astartes Marines.

Complaining that you can't take UM Special Characters with WS Special Rules is really about as silly as complaining that you can't take Space Wolves Special Characters in your Deathwing Army.

**Alpharius**

It isn't quite as silly as that, actually.

I can see where the complaints are coming from, as it is 'different than before', but then, that's how GW rolls, usually.

**FlingitNow**

Taking the UM Special Characters out doesn't reduce out much of a UM codex it is. It just removes rules for some models that lits of people own. The base codex should focus on the UMs they are the ones that set the base standard. The codex was quite literally written by them and they are the flagship chapter for the codex.

Taking SC rules out of the codex doesn't change that, it just causes uproar. Replacing those rules by have Supplement Ultramarines be the first released likewise doesn't change that it just causes uproar.

Should they have put in an Iron Hands SC? Well yes I'd like to see one for every Legion. But guess what Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, Word Bearers and Night Lords get nothing too. They don't even get CTs to help represent them.

Asking for more for IH is one thing moaning about them not removing rules for other chapters is quite another.

**Yodhrin**

d-usa wrote:
Is there an option to run the codex without any CT?

Other than CT it can still be Codex: Counts-As. You can make your army anything you want, and run SC in your army all you want.

The only change in the Codex is that it seems like you can't be Chapter McAwesome with White Scars Chapter Traits and Ultramarine Special Characters. But that's not really anything new since in the previous Codex CT (or the closest mechanism like it) was tied to the special characters to begin with.

Each Founding Chapter is pretty much getting their own Codex now, compiled into this bigger Codex: Mostly Following The Codex Astartes Marines.

Complaining that you can't take UM Special Characters with WS Special Rules is really about as silly as complaining that you can't take Space Wolves Special Characters in your Deathwing Army.

No, you either play one of the seven, or a successor to one of the seven using their rules. And this bears repeating, over and over and over until people grasp it: GW wrote the codex, therefore if combining SCs and Chapter Tactics would be imbalanced, that is the fault of the writers, who could have written them to be compatible if they chose. You know what, sod it, I'm out, if people want to continue to ignore the issues with the new system in favour of peddling rubbish or trite quips, have at it.

**Exergy**

MajorWesJanson wrote:
Exergy wrote:

SW have 7 special character
BA have 7 special characters
Ultras have 5 special characters
If I want to play Iron Hands, I will have 0 special characters

UM have 6: Calgar, Sicarius, Cassius, Tigurius, Telion, Chronos
SW have 8: Logan, Ragnar, Njal, Bjorn, Ulrik, Canis, Arjak, Lukas
BA have 8: Dante, Tycho, Mepheston, Lemartes, Astorath, Sanguinor, Corbulo, Seth.

Shows how well I know those codexes. Still my point stands.

**d-usa**

Alpharius wrote:
It isn't quite as silly as that, actually.

I can see where the complaints are coming from, as it is 'different than before', but then, that's how GW rolls, usually.

Yeah, the big difference really is that they seem to be separating Combat Tactics from the special characters.

In the 5th ed. Codex you could take Black Marines all you want, but they didn't really become Raven Guard until you took Shrike and have his Combat Tactics replace the standard Combat Tactics.
Now you have Raven Guard (or whatever chapter strikes your fancy) as a default, with the applicable Chapter Tactics already applied to the rest of your force.

It seems like this Codex is a balance between people who always asked "Why doesn't my Chapter get their own book, we are different enough" and the people who say " do we really need another Codex: Different Color Space Marine".

I really don't have a problem with restricting Chapter Specific Special Characters to forces that are Counts-As Chapter X. I understand why people might have a problem with it though, but the decision makes sense to me.

**Exergy**

MajorWesJanson wrote:
Pyriel- wrote:
This one I just don't understand. How can every space marine Chapter Master be W4 A4, yet the Dark Angels Chapter Master's are only W3 A3? Things like this should be consistent from chapter to chapter, no?
Those are Company Masters for the DA (Captains for other chapters). The DA Chapter Master (Supreme Grand Master Azrael) is in fact W4 and A4.

GK grand masters?

I can go on and on, but razorback is absolutely not one of the selling points of the tactical squad, especially when you consider that whats inside looses its ability to shoot out the top.

Exactly. A tin can that dies as soon as someone looks at it with a overpriced weapon on it´s roof. Not my idea of powerful unit.

Draigo is their Chapter Master equivalent with 4w 4a. Grand Masters are now closer to captains, like DA company masters.

Why does a Chaos Lord only have 3 wounds and 3 attacks? Do ALL super Chaos lords become Daemon Princes except for abbadon? Seems to me that everyone should get the option for super masters if SM do.

**d-usa**

Yodhrin wrote:
d-usa wrote:
Is there an option to run the codex without any CT?

Other than CT it can still be Codex: Counts-As. You can make your army anything you want, and run SC in your army all you want.

The only change in the Codex is that it seems like you can't be Chapter McAwesome with White Scars Chapter Traits and Ultramarine Special Characters. But that's not really anything new since in the previous Codex CT (or the closest mechanism like it) was tied to the special characters to begin with.

Each Founding Chapter is pretty much getting their own Codex now, compiled into this bigger Codex: Mostly Following The Codex Astartes Marines.

Complaining that you can't take UM Special Characters with WS Special Rules is really about as silly as complaining that you can't take Space Wolves Special Characters in your Deathwing Army.

No, you either play one of the seven, or a successor to one of the seven using their rules. And this bears repeating, over and over and over until people grasp it: GW wrote the codex, therefore if combining SCs and Chapter Tactics would be imbalanced, that is the fault of the writers, who could have written them to be compatible if they chose.

For all we know they could have gone through numerous test versions of the book, but none of them were able to combine SC and CT without breaking things. So they decided that the best solution would be to restrict Special Characters to their specific chapters.

Or the people who write the game and own the game just decided "I want UM guys to only be used by UM guys". It certainly doesn't break the game, it just means that you can't use them if you want to be another chapter.

You know what, sod it, I'm out, if people want to continue to ignore the issues with the new system in favour of peddling rubbish or trite quips, have at it.

Alrighty then...

**lord_blackfang**

d-usa wrote:
Complaining that you can't take UM Special Characters with WS Special Rules is really about as silly as complaining that you can't take Space Wolves Special Characters in your Deathwing Army.

Bad example since, to my knowledge, no Whits Scars player has complained about that. Other chapters' characters don't really do anything meaningful for an all-bike force

Honestly it seems to be mostly down to Iron Hands (who lack any special character of their own) and Imperial Fists (whose chapter tactics are an inferior version of Ultramarine chapter tactics).

**spamthulhu**

Exergy wrote:
MajorWesJanson wrote:
Pyriel- wrote:
This one I just don't understand. How can every space marine Chapter Master be W4 A4, yet the Dark Angels Chapter Master's are only W3 A3? Things like this should be consistent from chapter to chapter, no?
Those are Company Masters for the DA (Captains for other chapters). The DA Chapter Master (Supreme Grand Master Azrael) is in fact W4 and A4.

GK grand masters?

I can go on and on, but razorback is absolutely not one of the selling points of the tactical squad, especially when you consider that whats inside looses its ability to shoot out the top.

Exactly. A tin can that dies as soon as someone looks at it with a overpriced weapon on it´s roof. Not my idea of powerful unit.

Draigo is their Chapter Master equivalent with 4w 4a. Grand Masters are now closer to captains, like DA company masters.

Why does a Chaos Lord only have 3 wounds and 3 attacks? Do ALL super Chaos lords become Daemon Princes except for abbadon? Seems to me that everyone should get the option for super masters if SM do.

Its because they change directions mid edition rather than have a solid approach to the whole edition.

Proper design would have been to sit down with the new rule book and redesign all the armies at once unifying point values for things and play testing the rules for your new edition for a while before solidifying it. THen write all the army book changes down and slowly test them and print them. The problem is rather than decide that all master level marine types would have 4a 4w in this edition they decided to change that at the last moment with the latest codecs.

**Exergy**

FirePainter wrote:
Just remember that is a Iron Hands chapter master with 4 wounds and it will not die that will be ID by a lucky krak missile or lascannon. He will still be a space marine so T4 and that is pretty easy to deal with.

I think bikes are going to be 20 points and most people are going to put their expensive HQs on brikes. Movement+HoW+T5+an extra bolter are all nice.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

dkellyj wrote:
Agree with the Chapter Master thing. While its nice to get the extra W and A...it would have been nice to purchase different USRs and bonuses to build unique DIY Chapters.
IH follow-on with IWND and MC Thunderhammers (now to cast Iron Arm on myself).
IF with Tank-Hunter and Scoring Devastators/Heavy (come get some).
Raven Guard with Move Through Cover and T/L flamers (fast and toasty).
BTs with Zealot and Rage. (we don't hate you...we despise the very ground you walk on.)

GW really missed a chance to expand Space Marines into a thousand different Chapters where each player can define an army that matches the players style and personality.

They royally missed the boat with CSM codex. This seems awesoem by comparison.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Crimson wrote:
MajorWesJanson wrote:

Ultramarines and successors spend more time drilling the basics (they have a crazy daily schedule) while the others take time out of basic marksmanship to learn things like tank hunting, being sneaky, or replacing body parts with mechanical parts.

It's just odd that their tacticals forget half of that training once they become veterans.

It gets worse for CSM, you renounce the emperor and you forget how to rally

**tomjoad**

exergy wrote:
spamthulhu wrote:

Why does a Chaos Lord only have 3 wounds and 3 attacks? Do ALL super Chaos lords become Daemon Princes except for abbadon? Seems to me that everyone should get the option for super masters if SM do.

Its because they change directions mid edition rather than have a solid approach to the whole edition.

Proper design would have been to sit down with the new rule book and redesign all the armies at once unifying point values for things and play testing the rules for your new edition for a while before solidifying it. THen write all the army book changes down and slowly test them and print them. The problem is rather than decide that all master level marine types would have 4a 4w in this edition they decided to change that at the last moment with the latest codecs.

Isn't the more likely answer that Abbadon is the only Chapter Master equivalent in CSM and that Lords, just like GK Brother-Captains, are equal to SM captains?

**Exergy**

FlingitNow wrote:

Yeah remove rules for models lots of people have bought. That's a great way to not alienate your customer base. GW was never going to remove the Characters they already have models for, they've done that in the past to massive outcry from everyone. When the supplements come out they can add more characters. So the only way to do what you're suggesting would be to release UM supplement alongside the main codex, to reduce the UM bias....

I want a word with you!

FlingitNow wrote:

As for the rumoured rules I personally would be shocked if they hit the shelves as printed here. Tac marines won't get blanket rerolls to hit. I can see these doctrines existing but in a one use bubble effect probably from a Captain (would give you a reason to take one) with the CM having a boosted bubble or the ability to do multiple doctrines.

Let's see what happens when the book lands. They need to do something to help tactical marines (smashing Scouts with the nerf bat in 6th ed rules wasn't for me the answer). The points will go in line with the DA book we know that. But until we see how these rules work and what synergy there is in the codex and with wargear.

I agree, twinlinked everything sounds too good to be true, will need to wait.

**spamthulhu**

tomjoad wrote:
exergy wrote:
spamthulhu wrote:

Why does a Chaos Lord only have 3 wounds and 3 attacks? Do ALL super Chaos lords become Daemon Princes except for abbadon? Seems to me that everyone should get the option for super masters if SM do.

Its because they change directions mid edition rather than have a solid approach to the whole edition.

Proper design would have been to sit down with the new rule book and redesign all the armies at once unifying point values for things and play testing the rules for your new edition for a while before solidifying it. THen write all the army book changes down and slowly test them and print them. The problem is rather than decide that all master level marine types would have 4a 4w in this edition they decided to change that at the last moment with the latest codecs.

Isn't the more likely answer that Abbadon is the only Chapter Master equivalent in CSM and that Lords, just like GK Brother-Captains, are equal to SM captains?

That wouldn't make much sense in a chaos book meant to represent the massed legions of chaos. If they release like 5 supplements with 4w 4a lords of each legion then I would say yes but chapter master would have an equivalent model in the chaos book being they are both the generic option for the highest leader of their respective armies.

The same way Calgar isn't the only chapter master in the book.

**Exergy**

tomjoad wrote:
exergy wrote:
spamthulhu wrote:

Why does a Chaos Lord only have 3 wounds and 3 attacks? Do ALL super Chaos lords become Daemon Princes except for abbadon? Seems to me that everyone should get the option for super masters if SM do.

Its because they change directions mid edition rather than have a solid approach to the whole edition.

Proper design would have been to sit down with the new rule book and redesign all the armies at once unifying point values for things and play testing the rules for your new edition for a while before solidifying it. THen write all the army book changes down and slowly test them and print them. The problem is rather than decide that all master level marine types would have 4a 4w in this edition they decided to change that at the last moment with the latest codecs.

Isn't the more likely answer that Abbadon is the only Chapter Master equivalent in CSM and that Lords, just like GK Brother-Captains, are equal to SM captains?

Omegan isnt a chapter master?

Huron isn't a chapter master?

Kor Phaeron isnt a chapter master (his host is larger than any chapter)

Word Bearers and Iron Warriors still operate in chapter sized entities and their leaders are supposed to be 2W 2A WS5 Dark Aposles and 2W 2A WS4 Warpsmiths?

What about when a Chapter and Chapter Master turn to chaos, they lose ATSKNF, have to turn in their drop pods and whirlwinds AND they suddenly lose 1W and 1A?

I dont buy it. There are tons of Chapter Master equivalents for Chaos. Just GW failing again.

**Hulksmash**

Attrition or Ascension would be a good fluff reason for Chaos Lords to only have 3W.

In game terms their far cheaper cost. Or it could be balance so they might not start the game with 5W from mutations? Or their mounts that can give them +1 or +2 wounds. I could probably keep going.....

**AlmightyWalrus**

To be fair, the lack of ATSKNF makes complete sense; when you're only out for yourself it's probably harder to keep he level of discipline and respect of authority that permeates most Loyalist Chapters.

Balance-wise it's rather unfair. Even I, who feel that ATSKNF is overrated (good, but overrated),think it's iffy at best.

**BoomWolf**

You know what you missed from the chapter/IC argument? Some people had "not-IC" from 2 different chapters.

Also, heard telion is turning into IC HQ, can anyone confirm or deny?

**godswildcard**

If the chapter tactic for Imperial Fists were disappointing, maybe it would have been better to allow them to take two fortifications instead of just one. That would fit with fluff, be potentially powerful, and be very unique. Aren't they siege specialists?

**Davespil**

Honestly, I don't buy it. I don't think that this SM codex is gonna be any different than the last one with the exception of a few rule changes and a few new models/units.

I don't think GW is gonna give you the option of choosing a set of rules to represent various chapters. I think it will be just like in the old codex and just like the C:CSM, and C:E. They could have given you rules to field armies from the various traitor legions and craft worlds but they didn't. They are releasing upplements to make you pay more to get these rules. I don't think C:SM is gonna be any different then those codexes.