Hulksmash wrote:
Attrition or Ascension would be a good fluff reason for Chaos Lords to only have 3W.

In game terms their far cheaper cost. Or it could be balance so they might not start the game with 5W from mutations? Or their mounts that can give them +1 or +2 wounds. I could probably keep going.....

Omegan isnt a chapter master?

Kor Phaeron isn't a chapter master?

Honestly, I don't buy it. I don't think that this SM codex is gonna be any different than the last one with the exception of a few rule changes and a few new models/units.

I don't think GW is gonna give you the option of choosing a set of rules to represent various chapters. I think it will be just like in the old codex and just like the C:CSM, and C:E. They could have given you rules to field armies from the various traitor legions and craft worlds but they didn't. They are releasing upplements to make you pay more to get these rules. I don't think C:SM is gonna be any different then those codexes.

daisho wrote:

 Pyriel- wrote:
So I´m stuck with one overpriced in-the-warp "chapter master" that I cannot customize what so ever? Nice.

He is Lysander, just better. He has Eternal Warrior, 2+/3++ save, iirc strikes at initiative with his Titansword, makes some of your units (regardless of type) scoring. I don't see what's wrong with him ...

The only really downside I see is that you can't give him a Psycannon in addition

I'm hoping Scouts still get the same bonus from cloaks so they can get a 2+ cover save in a ruin.

 Exergy wrote:


It gets worse for CSM, you renounce the emperor and you forget how to rally

 Pyriel- wrote:

daisho wrote:

 Pyriel- wrote:
So I´m stuck with one overpriced in-the-warp "chapter master" that I cannot customize what so ever? Nice.

He is Lysander, just better. He has Eternal Warrior, 2+/3++ save, iirc strikes at initiative with his Titansword, makes some of your units (regardless of type) scoring. I don't see what's wrong with him ...

The only really downside I see is that you can't give him a Psycannon in addition

For whatever 270-ish points he costs he cant even kill a 40p terminator.
No thanks, I´d take lysander with his hammer any day and save points doing so.

I'm hoping Scouts still get the same bonus from cloaks so they can get a 2+ cover save in a ruin.

I´m hoping scout snipers will actually be able to do something else then maybe pick one wound of a MC.
Every time I take them I feel like I just chose a squad of conscripts armed with water pistols.

 tvih wrote:
CSM... yeah because they clearly need to have W4 A4 T6 nurgle biker lords running around with daemon weapons and such.

Also, they CAN get 4 wounds and 4 attacks with upgrades. Do show me the loyalist Captain that can have the T5 W4 A4 that a Juggernaut Lord has while doing up to 13 I5 S6 AP2 attacks on the charge?

Furthermore Nurgle Lord with a Palanguin of Nurgle can even have 5 wounds at T5 and 4 base attacks.

They also can get an AP3 torrent flamer. Hell, with the new BL supplement it seems you can even have EW. Not sure on the restrictions, but seems like a pretty damn solid option.

CSM do have valid things to complain about, but Chaos Lords vs SM Captains/Chapter Masters just isn't one of them.

 BoomWolf wrote:
You know what you missed from the chapter/IC argument? Some people had "not-IC" from 2 different chapters.


Also, heard telion is turning into IC HQ, can anyone confirm or deny?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Isean wrote:
I guess I am a bit of a role player kind of guy. I play Black Templars, have the Helbrecht model and never use him...because that marshal on the field? Thats my representative. I dont want a guy who already has a name and fluff, I want to be the one making the fluff for my dudes. So I honestly just don't get this recent SC conflict.

Anyways, a few BLack Templar questions:

1) I assume righteous zeal is gone? Can anyone verify? Because running forward in my opponent's shooting phase was beyond awesome for my close combat army.
2) Does anyone know if the BT are keeping the 5 man special/heavy weapons capability? Or will get get the minimum 10 restriction that everyone complains about?
3) Terminator squads, I used to be able to do 2 heavy weapons with 5 terminators, is that changing?
4) Will our squads finally get sergeants? As a BT I love my challenges but I only have like 3 characters max that can challenge right now.
5) Anyone heard about whats going on with the Sword Brethren unit? Right now its worth less than dirt in game...but those models are just so awesome. At worst I hope I can just use them as sergeant models.
6) And lastly, my custom Marshal is modelled with a lightning claw and a storm shield...because I could take those with the old Armoury setup where he could just pick and choose. Is that still going to be a legal setup? I havent even touched the other SM codices to see what their HQs could take. I would hate to shelve him (I am NOT taking him apart) Oh, and I have a termie chaplain with a crozius and a power axe...is that likely to be legal with the update? Because its awesome right now

Note: I also feel as though rolling them up in the C:SM codex was a great way to expand on them, and potentially fix them...but I dont think thats happening. Maybe I am wrong, but I feel as though we will again NOT be designed as a close combat army, regardless of the stuff happening to them.

CT for Crusader is nice, re-rolling run moves will potentially help me get closer to the enemy for the charge...but I STILL cant run and charge, so largely pointless. With righteous zeal I had a move, run and another separate run in the enemy phase potentially so overall crusader I feel is a worse option.

CT for Adamantine Will for the army is great...not too gamebreaking as most psykers just buff themselves rather than attack an enemy. And its SUPER fluffy, which I love.

Or take the OTHER CT for Rending in challenges is ok relying on one thing. We DO have sergeants in our squads now right? Also the re-roll to hits I am hearing about. Is it only in close combat? And is it ALSO for just the challenges, or for everyone in the army? Big questions that need some answers eventually.

For an army that is supposed to be super close combat oriented, I am still not seeing how to get them into close combat...and even IF they DO get there, I fear they are weaker than they EVER were before. Before 6th every BT could have PE in close combat, which was awesome. Then 6th and the FAQ came out and the most common Vow allowed Rage, which was a bonus attack on the charge? Not as good, but still a huge difference in assault outcomes. And most of the assaulting units in BT could take furious charge for an even better assault. Now from the rumors, I am gathering I get no close combat bonuses aside from rerolling runs, and rerolling to hits (Potentially ONLY in challenges), My assault terminators will be more expensive and so far have nothing to say they can take furious charge. I lose my rage vow. I lose righteous zeal too. I feel as if we may be getting even further from the fluff with BT as an assaulting army.

And one of the bigger notes missing in the BT rumors? "No pity, no remorse, no fear." The ability that made EVERY Templar fearless in close combat. Even to the point where you CANT take "Our weapons are useless" I LOVED being fearless in close combat, it was one of the biggest fluff pieces the Black Templars had going for them!

When I originally heard BT were rolled into C:SM I was pumped for new toys and new tactics and more consistant updates...but I am growing more concerned the closer we come to the day of release. I will hold off disappointment or joy until I know for sure...but I am feeling very skeptical on the future of my Angry Sci-Fi Space Crusaders.

Your post sums up how I feel about the Templars too. From what we know so far, it looks as though the CC prowess of the Black Templars has been nerfed pretty hard. Slower into CC, less attacks on the charge and no longer Fearless in CC. We're more or less losing half our Special Rules, which is exactly what was predicted in pretty much every "fold BT into the Vanilla Codex!!!11!" thread the last year. I'm hoping there's more stuff we don't know about yet (the Honor Guard is looking interesting if they can take a Drop Pod), but it looks like it's going to be an example of how NOT to fold a variant Chapter in.

 Exergy wrote:

 tvih wrote:
CSM... yeah because they clearly need to have W4 A4 T6 nurgle biker lords running around with daemon weapons and such.

Also, they CAN get 4 wounds and 4 attacks with upgrades. Do show me the loyalist Captain that can have the T5 W4 A4 that a Juggernaut Lord has while doing up to 13 I5 S6 AP2 attacks on the charge?

Furthermore Nurgle Lord with a Palanguin of Nurgle can even have 5 wounds at T5 and 4 base attacks.

They also can get an AP3 torrent flamer. Hell, with the new BL supplement it seems you can even have EW. Not sure on the restrictions, but seems like a pretty damn solid option.

CSM do have valid things to complain about, but Chaos Lords vs SM Captains/Chapter Masters just isn't one of them.

I did clarify my post that I feel bad for Undivided Chaos players. Someone who wants to field an army that represents half of the forces of chaos. If you dont take a mark, you cant get any of the fancy steeds, fanciest daemon weapons, or huge toughness or invunerable save boosts. You cant even field a daemon prince without a lot of luck.

 SickSix wrote:


So what is the problem? You want all the fancy toys without paying the price. Undivided chaos is basically just renegades. Why would renegades that haven't sold their souls get any of the stuff you mentioned?

TiamatRoar wrote:
Yea, you can't even have Daemon Princes of Chaos Undivided, despite how there's tons of those in the fluff.

 streamdragon wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:
Yea, you can't even have Daemon Princes of Chaos Undivided, despite how there's tons of those in the fluff.

Are there? I thought one of the Chaos Gods had to elevate someone to Daemon Prince.

 Exergy wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:
Yea, you can't even have Daemon Princes of Chaos Undivided, despite how there's tons of those in the fluff.

Are there? I thought one of the Chaos Gods had to elevate someone to Daemon Prince.

maybe it is one of the minor powers
maybe it is a combination of gods
maybe it is one of the major gods rewarding a champion who has not pledged himself to that god. (unlikely)

Pertubo and Lorgar are both Unmarked Daemon Princes.

Barban Falk, Sindri Myr, Kor Megron, Kernax Voldorius, M'kar, and Nemeroth are all undivided DPs mentioned in various books or codexes that ascended from normal space marines.

 FlingitNow wrote:

While I know that there will be a supplement for IH and that there will probably be a few SCs (here's hoping for a techmarine dreadnought) in there, I think they shouldn't have put in the UM SCs as there will be an UM supplement at some stage as well

Yeah remove rules for models lots of people have bought. That's a great way to not alienate your customer base. GW was never going to remove the Characters they already have models for, they've done that in the past to massive outcry from everyone. When the supplements come out they can add more characters. So the only way to do what you're suggesting would be to release UM supplement alongside the main codex, to reduce the UM bias....

As for the rumoured rules I personally would be shocked if they hit the shelves as printed here. Tac marines won't get blanket rerolls to hit. I can see these doctrines existing but in a one use bubble effect probably from a Captain (would give you a reason to take one) with the CM having a boosted bubble or the ability to do multiple doctrines.

Let's see what happens when the book lands. They need to do something to help tactical marines (smashing Scouts with the nerf bat in 6th ed rules wasn't for me the answer). The points will go in line with the DA book we know that. But until we see how these rules work and what synergy there is in the codex and with wargear.

Crazyterran wrote:
I like how CSM players think they should get another codex right now just because the C:SM codex rumors are all pointing to it being a good book.

TiamatRoar wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Crazyterran wrote:
I like how CSM players think they should get another codex right now just because the C:SM codex rumors are all pointing to it being a good book.

It's also a big break to fluff immersion. Chaos Space Marines are corrupted Space Marines. So why don't they have chapter tactics when Loyalist Marines do?

"Yea, my Iron Hands specialize in mech stuff while your Iron Warriors specialize in nothing!"

When a dedicated Iron Warriors player goes against an Iron Hands player with this new codex, the whole thing just looks... stupid.

DogofWar1 wrote:
I do wonder how the supplements will change things. The Black Legion is coming out, so it's possible other ones might too.

One theory I have concerning codices in this edition is that they're going to pump out all the 6th ed codices within 2-3 years, and then spend the next 2-3 years that 6th ed is around pumping out supplements every 2-3 months.

After all, by the end of Q2 next year, we're supposed to have the five that are already out, plus C:SM, Tyranids, C:IG, Orks, and SW, so 10 sixth ed. codices total. There are 16 armies, except that SoB seems to be getting the White Dwarf treatment, and BT is rolled into the current C:SM book. That's 14 books to pump out, and they've got 5 out, with 5 more expected in a little less than a year. If they've only got 4 to go by the end of Q2 2014, I could see them finishing the 14 books by the end of Q2 2015, which would leave them with a couple of years before 7th Ed rolls around.

Not to mention, they might not even update some codices. Necrons seem to be fine competitively, and GK might not get an update either.

 Alpharius wrote:
It isn't quite as silly as that, actually.

I can see where the complaints are coming from, as it is 'different than before', but then, that's how GW rolls, usually.

 SheSpits wrote:
Im not sure if this has been coverd already. Will there be anything added in for DA? Or will i have to alie in C:SM to get some of the cool new toys and what not.