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Orock wrote:

Because whatever meelee lost in AP, shooting has made up for in spades in 6th. You have riptides now, tau are a lot more prevalent now that their flavor of the month. There are a lot more volume of fire armies, necron do it well.

If you could deal with Mech IG in 5th, i'm not seeing what's so new here. The current Necron book had the same firepower it did in 5th as it does now. Tau aren't throwing out any more firepower than many armies in 5E did, they're just a bit different in functionality. I mean, if you could deal with 15+ IG tanks all sporting multishot S5/6 guns and dozens of melta/plasma weapons on top of ordnance plates and vendetta lascannon spam, I'm not seeing anything in 5E that makes that 2+ save any worse than that. The only big thing is that since they made vehicles so hilariously easy to kill people moved more to Plasma instead of Melta.


Aside from that, it's not like armies weren't putting out similar firepower last edition.

Some armies have such overwhelming units against armor 3 now (helldrakes) that they can afford to pack the rest of their list with say lascannons or meltas.

In this case, the 3 Heldrakes are the primary killing power of the opposing army, meaning they aren't doing much to your termi's, thus they *must* devote their heavier weapons to the termis, where they're often least effective in terms of the return on their investment. It's also not like people weren't putting lots of ap2 weapons/high RoF weapons at termi's in previous editions either.

And lets not forget, the armies that can carry a lot of 2+ saves now just got even MORE weapons to shoot at termies in the form of grav guns. Lets say 3 centurions shoot with grav guns at a squad of 10 TH/SS termies. 15 shots, 10 hits, 10 wounds. You dident read that wrong, 10 wounds because 2s needed to wound, and reroll failed wounds. Now lets make their saves. 3+. so right away you have lost 3 or 4 termies. Those centurions cost a bit over half that, but they too are vulnerable to ap 2 weapons, though with 5 toughness and 2 wounds each.

We're also talking about a brand new unit here we haven't seen finalized stuff on and that looks to be a very specialized anti-terminator unit. To get the same results out of say, Vendettas, you'd need at least 5 of them, 650pts worth of drastically undercosted over-armed flyer. Not feeling too bad for the Hammernators there.

Puscifer wrote:
Who will take all axes on HG?

I'd go with 9 with axes and the champ with TH.

It won't matter if I hit last... whatever I hit back is dead or severely mauled.

Well that's your call, except when you face guard blobs, poison gaunts, gargoyles, orks, MC's, walkers and even regular meq a power maul will do the real mauling Mauls are better at all flavor of necrons as well! Heck, come to think of it, axes seem like the second best option to me. Don't forget with Tigerius you have a crazy good shot at getting misfortune or enfeeble making the mauls better again.

That also spoils what the banner does!

I have Tactical Squad Question:
Are they like the current C: SM
ot
Are they a Copy Past of the C: DA

Basicaly will the Sarge have access to Lighting Claws, and Thunder Hammers due to having access to Melee Weapons or will they just have Access to Power Fist and Power Weapon.
I have seen both here

Is it me or are those new tacticals? the legs seem more upright.

I hope the pictures in WD mean that Dark Angels are going to get sternguard.

 sing your life wrote:
I hope the pictures in WD mean that Dark Angels are going to get sternguard.

Um, what?

DA have veterans, as they always had an their codex just came out. Clearly someone used the Sternguard box to make their DA veterans.

 Spartan089 wrote:
Is it me or are those new tacticals? the legs seem more upright.

I believe new tac. Has been confirned

Those alternative codex covers are nice, but not nearly nice enough to pay double price for them (Imo).

 Red Corsair wrote:

Puscifer wrote:
Who will take all axes on HG?

I'd go with 9 with axes and the champ with TH.

It won't matter if I hit last... whatever I hit back is dead or severely mauled.

Well that's your call, except when you face guard blobs, poison gaunts, gargoyles, orks, MC's, walkers and even regular meq a power maul will do the real mauling Mauls are better at all flavor of necrons as well! Heck, come to think of it, axes seem like the second best option to me. Don't forget with Tigerius you have a crazy good shot at getting misfortune or enfeeble making the mauls better again.

I'm currently heading into a new meta so it may not be the best thing, but my old meta was nothing but MEQ and Eldar/DE.

I'm going with xp atm.

 centuryslayer wrote:

 Spartan089 wrote:
Is it me or are those new tacticals? the legs seem more upright.

I believe new tac. Has been confirned

Thats kinda BS considering Chaos is still stuck with the same dwarfy legged squads...

 Spartan089 wrote:

 centuryslayer wrote:

 Spartan089 wrote:
Is it me or are those new tacticals? the legs seem more upright.

I believe new tac. Has been confirned

Thats kinda BS considering Chaos is still stuck with the same dwarfy legged squads...

Who uses regular csm?

Dinamarth wrote:

 Spartan089 wrote:

 centuryslayer wrote:

 Spartan089 wrote:
Is it me or are those new tacticals? the legs seem more upright.

I believe new tac. Has been confirned

Thats kinda BS considering Chaos is still stuck with the same dwarfy legged squads...

Who uses regular csm?

I know a couple people. And I don't just mean the models, I mean they also run regular CSM. Sometime with marks!

Dinamarth wrote:

 Spartan089 wrote:

 centuryslayer wrote:

 Spartan089 wrote:
Is it me or are those new tacticals? the legs seem more upright.

I believe new tac. Has been confirned

Thats kinda BS considering Chaos is still stuck with the same dwarfy legged squads...

Who uses regular csm?

Any of the non-4 god specific chaos legions I suppose. I play Iron warriors and half my legion is still unassembled because I dont know how to modify the legs without totally scewing it up.

Holy jumping catfish batman! The new wordbearer models are incredible!
Guess i must have lost track of the links in the confusion, the ones i tried just showed a sad-looking chinese kid in some kind of native outfit.

In all this discussion about what looks good in the rules and what does not I missed something. The release date is the 31st of August or is that the IBook release? I have not seen anyting on the Ibook release for this either. My guess it is somewhere in the post but I grow dizzy trying to follow some of the communication

31st of august is when they go up for pre-sale for I believe a week.

I love how you have 6-7 different versions of power armor over the course of the hobby but the only change game-wise has been aesthetic. I think 3rd ed was Mark 2 or 3 and the new space Marines are on 7 or 8. Yet, the armor has not gotten better in anyway. Still a 3+, still a T4, and they aren't moving any faster. So what was the reason for the changes in armor? Did the Imperium just want to keep up with the latest fashions in power armor?

Yeah, I get that maybe they are bit more comfortable and easier to produce. But after all of these modification wouldn't they offer more protection? Or at least make the SM tougher or faster?

They are better in the fluff, well each MK has it's advantages/disadvantages. It's just an aesthetic thing in game.

MK?

As in Mark or designation.

Puscifer wrote:
MK?

I know in the US Marines we pronounced MK as 'Mark' instead of spelling out M K. Like the MK-19 we would say 'Mark nineteen'. If that isn't the same over the pond then I can see where the confusion is as I spelled it out as I said it and not how it should be written, a big problem I have. I meant MK-2 through MK-8 armor.

Ahhhh ty... I come from an Armed Forces family, never seen it written like that before.

Puscifer wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Puscifer wrote:
Who will take all axes on HG?

I'd go with 9 with axes and the champ with TH.

It won't matter if I hit last... whatever I hit back is dead or severely mauled.

Well that's your call, except when you face guard blobs, poison gaunts, gargoyles, orks, MC's, walkers and even regular meq a power maul will do the real mauling Mauls are better at all flavor of necrons as well! Heck, come to think of it, axes seem like the second best option to me. Don't forget with Tigerius you have a crazy good shot at getting misfortune or enfeeble making the mauls better again.

I'm currently heading into a new meta so it may not be the best thing, but my old meta was nothing but MEQ and Eldar/DE.

I'm going with xp atm.

Fair enough, as you should. I would suggest either modifying your own halberd type weapon to use as both, or to try magnets, either way it sounds like more of a fluffy build anyway.

In the fluff

Mk 1 Thunder Armour wasn't actually power armour, as it was only powered in the chest and arms and wasn't fully enclosed.

Mk 2 Crusade Armour was the first full Power Armour featuring void capability and powered legs.

Mk 3 Iron pattern was an upgrade to Mk2 that moved more of the armouring to the front and was ideal for frontal assaults and "Space Hulk" style arenas like Zone Mortalis.

Mk 4 Maximus was the second true set of Power Armour as 3 was just a modification and 1 wasn't really PA. It featured a completely redesigned helmet with advanced autosenses and nifties, as well as being the first suit to have a seperate headpiece that could turn. The Crusade helmet locked into set postion but allowed turning of the head inside the helmet. It also placed the cabling on the legs inside rather than outside like the Mk2

Mk 5 Heresy was really just any old bits of other suits cobbled together and had extra armour made from subpar matierials like plasteel attached to protect vs the Traitor's Bolter rounds. The drawback was its increased weight put strain on the systems and either overheated badly or worked at less than peak.

Mk 6 Corvus was pioneered by Raven Guard as full replacement for Mk4, featuring an elongated nose containing incredibly advanced autosenses and nifties, better than Mk4 anyway. It was also rumoured to be lighter and queiter than other suits due to RG testing

Mk 7 Aquila is the 4th "true" armour, and carries many designs from older Marks of armour, including the autosenses suite from Corvus, the helmet shape of Heresy, and various other things and is quite common.

Mk8 rrant armour is a new set that's really only in the beta testing phase. It features most prominently, a new breastplate with a collar. This prevents bullets ricochetting into the head as they could with Aquila, but needed a slightly modified helmet. IiRC it also has reinforced greaves and vambraces.

Well... I'm still trying to make my mind up between armies, but Marines is definitely one of the choices.

I can't fathom how people thought Hammernators were going to get cheaper. 2+sv's became a lot more survivable in CC in general (so the value of that save has increased), 3+ invuls matter more against shooting now that 4+ cover isn't the norm (and thus is still super valuable), and normal terminators don't bring enough shooting to offset the survivability advantage. Yeah, CC isn't as potent in general as it previously was, but the Hammernators going down in cost just realistically wasn't going to happen, especially not with how the CSM and DA books treated terminators.


Because whatever meelee lost in AP, shooting has made up for in spades in 6th. You have riptides now, tau are a lot more prevalent now that their flavor of the month. There are a lot more volume of fire armies, necron do it well. So they die more often to massed firepower. Some armies have such overwhelming units against armor 3 now (helldrakes) that they can afford to pack the rest of their list with say lascannons or meltas. And lets not forget, the armies that can carry a lot of 2+ saves now just got even MORE weapons to shoot at termies in the form of grav guns. Lets say 3 centurions shoot with grav guns at a squad of 10 TH/SS termies. 15 shots, 10 hits, 10 wounds. You dident read that wrong, 10 wounds because 2s needed to wound, and reroll failed wounds. Now lets make their saves. 3+. so right away you have lost 3 or 4 termies. Those centurions cost a bit over half that, but they too are vulnerable to ap 2 weapons, though with 5 toughness and 2 wounds each.

2+ saves have NEVER been more worthless then they are now. That's why the price hike in points is so stupid.

And the previous example with regular terminators with 5+ invun? 7 or 8 dead. That is just stupid and the reason nobody uses termies at 40, much less 45.

This!

Bottom line is terminators ought to cost less across the board with hammernators being the most expensive.
Also comparing DA terminators and using that as an excuse to further turn SM terminators into nearly unusable junk is not valid, at least DA terminators get to take combibolters and come with fancy rules...and STILL deathwing armies suck.

Orock wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Assault isn't great in this edition get over it.

First I agree with you that hammer terminators should be the most points, as they are the best, and also that ALL terminators should have had a points drop across the board. But to come out and say assault isn't great this edition get over it is dumb. You are completely invalidating 2 or 3 armies default best playstyle, and don't think that the age of all shooting or go home weakens the game. It does. Its a much less interesting game if you don't have to build your lists to fight that one guy who brings a swamp ya army, because nobody plays it anymore. If gw told all the nid and ork fans to "get over it" they would just be alienating even more of their fanbase.

Yeah I think a 5 point across the board reduction in Terminators cost could have been a good thing. Though making assault elements less effective in the around armies makes assault armies more specialist. We're waiting on a Nid and Ork codex to redress the balance and I expect them to do so. This is a shooting edition from a rules perspective the last was not but the codexes made it a shooting edition. This has meant assault has taken a double whammy so far this edition and the shooty armies have been done first. Though Daemons have competitive assault builds, which shows hope for when Orks and Bids come.

Oh yeah, my DW have been taking a beating recently. Totally agree that they are being outclassed right now.

MEQ armies are just not as resilient as they were and dare I say it, far more fragile than people realise.

They don't put out enough Firepower and can't take the hits anymore.

This is why I think the RG are going to be the Dark Horses of the new book. Ambush is the way fwd.

 Deadshot wrote:


Mk 6 Corvus was pioneered by Raven Guard as full replacement for Mk4, featuring an elongated nose containing incredibly advanced autosenses and nifties, better than Mk4 anyway. It was also rumoured to be lighter and queiter than other suits due to RG testing

Pretty good summary, http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Power_Armour#Mark_6_.22Corvus_Armour.22 Here's the Lexi link for anyone interested in the full run down

Edit: I will say, that while the lexi's description says that Mk II and III had fixed helmets, the HH art and HH models by FW defy that description with clearly mobile/functioning head rotation.