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Is it wierd that I got excited when I saw the mk.6 power armo torso in the tac.squad?

 AtoMaki wrote:

Puscifer wrote:

If you don't deal with them, they are going to murder your infantry or worse. It's not the fact they will run you down, whatever they face in cc, will just die. They have enough attacks and wounds to take out anything.

And what if the infantry they want to butcher simply runs away? It's not like they can really catch up...

Then their job is done and the offending, cowards are not shooting at anything else.

DogofWar1 wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

DogofWar1 wrote:

 davou wrote:

Dont be too excited unless there's a way to buy EW or +1T

That's exactly the thing, one of the relics is supposed to give EW. I think the rumors are that it's a shield, basically allowing you to make a Lysander clone, or even better, one in Artificer Armor who can sweep.

Which ever it is, its most likely going to cost 65pts, which is how much the most expensive relic is supposed to cost. I really hope if its the shield it still has the 3++

If it was an EW storm shield, 65 pts would make perfect sense, since SS is usually 30 points, and EW is 35ish. The one thing is that if you upgrade an Iron Halo, 30 pts to go from 4++ to 3++ is a bit steep, but getting EW on a 4W chapter master, especially if you give him artificer armor, is Nasty awesome.

rumor is it is a combat shield, not a storm shield. So it will probably cost less but come with a 6++ instead of a 3++


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Archons can take the Huskblade. AP2 with Instant Death.

Really when did that happen - missed that!!!? I thought the Huskblade was justa "power weapon" that caused instant death - so a Power Sword Husk Blade would be AP3 and only a Power Axe AP2? That would be great for my Archon if true

Just checked the FAQs - thanks sooo much for this

sorry bit off topic

he is str3, but yeah it is very powerful at WS7 Init 7

 centuryslayer wrote:
Is it wierd that I got excited when I saw the mk.6 power armo torso in the tac.squad?

Not sure if joking or not, given that there's one in the current box.

 Breotan wrote:

 Vain wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Personally I don't like the new MkVII models. They looks different. Longer "noses", larger pads, rounder chests. Maybe its just the pic but they look like a step back from the one on sale now.

Any particular models? Are you meaning the Character models, or are you basing this on the new Stern/Van kits, or are you talking about the Tac kit?

If it is the Tac box then I think you be cray-z, as for the others I am not really seeing the "longer noses" or what have you. Could you link the pic you think reflects this the most?

Yea, I'm not seeing whatever it is he's talking about either. I even grabbed some of my Tactical bits and DV/AoBR starter marines to compare.

The picture of the sternguard with the combi-grav, or the second vanguard on the left of the box front have helmets in a style I've not seen before. Sort of long, stretched, and frowny. I'm not a big fan of them. I'm not sure if these are the ones he means, but I know all of those are getting a one way trip to my bitz box...

 FlingitNow wrote:

but seeing a unit of power axe wielding nutters take out an equally pointed assault terminator squad,

So everyones up to speed here's the maths 10 assault terminators will be 450 points (using big numbers for easy maths) that's 18 HG.

You strike at the same time (we'll assume you magically got into combat with no one charging)

Terminators: 20 attacks 10 Hits 8.33 dead HG.
HG: 54 attacks 27 hits 18 wounds 6 dead HG

HG lose combat but will win the war of attrition as the Terminators are down to 4 guys.

Round 2 assuming HG run away and the Teinators charge them:

Termmies: 12 attacks 6 hits 5 more dead.
HG: 30 attacks 15 hits 10 wounds 3 TDAs dead down to 1 Terminator...

Last round Terminators: 2 attacks 1 hit 1 dead.
HG: 15 attacks 7.5 hits 5 wounds last termmie is over killed. Still 4 HG left.

That's ignoring shooting (which HG do and Terminators don't) against any other type of terminator the story is worse for the Terminator. At 25 points HG become a top tier combat unit.

Thanks for working that out.

I got one question...

Can I use Marneus as a counts as leader.

I'll use the UM rules, I just don't fancy painting that much blue and gold.

No there is not,that is mk5 the only true mk6 is on space Wolves.
A true mk6 has 3 upper cables one going down,it looks like the letter Y
The Mk5 have the 4 ribber cables with the car speaker in his chest

I can't fathom how people thought Hammernators were going to get cheaper. 2+sv's became a lot more survivable in CC in general (so the value of that save has increased), 3+ invuls matter more against shooting now that 4+ cover isn't the norm (and thus is still super valuable), and normal terminators don't bring enough shooting to offset the survivability advantage. Yeah, CC isn't as potent in general as it previously was, but the Hammernators going down in cost just realistically wasn't going to happen, especially not with how the CSM and DA books treated terminators.

 Nevelon wrote:

 Breotan wrote:

 Vain wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Personally I don't like the new MkVII models. They looks different. Longer "noses", larger pads, rounder chests. Maybe its just the pic but they look like a step back from the one on sale now.

Any particular models? Are you meaning the Character models, or are you basing this on the new Stern/Van kits, or are you talking about the Tac kit?

If it is the Tac box then I think you be cray-z, as for the others I am not really seeing the "longer noses" or what have you. Could you link the pic you think reflects this the most?

Yea, I'm not seeing whatever it is he's talking about either. I even grabbed some of my Tactical bits and DV/AoBR starter marines to compare.

The picture of the sternguard with the combi-grav, or the second vanguard on the left of the box front have helmets in a style I've not seen before. Sort of long, stretched, and frowny. I'm not a big fan of them. I'm not sure if these are the ones he means, but I know all of those are getting a one way trip to my bitz box...

Those are Mk IV "Maximus" helmets. Forge World has been producing them for a long time. I think there's one on the current Black Templar upgrade sprue.

 Eisenhorn wrote:
No there is not,that is mk5 the only true mk6 is on space Wolves.
A true mk6 has 3 upper cables one going down,it looks like the letter Y
The Mk5 have the 4 ribber cables with the car speaker in his chest

Okay. I understand. Which one of the new guys do you see wearing the letter "Y"?

 Vaktathi wrote:
I can't fathom how people thought Hammernators were going to get cheaper. 2+sv's became a lot more survivable in CC in general (so the value of that save has increased), 3+ invuls matter more against shooting now that 4+ cover isn't the norm (and thus is still super valuable), and normal terminators don't bring enough shooting to offset the survivability advantage. Yeah, CC isn't as potent in general as it previously was, but the Hammernators going down in cost just realistically wasn't going to happen, especially not with how the CSM and DA books treated terminators.

I don't think hammernators need a price increase, They were OK for their points and still need a 250+pt land raider to really field. Any casualties taken really hurt the unit's combat capability. I ran them religiously in 5th, but I have a harder and harder time working them into my lists these days.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

 Largeblastmarker wrote:
They will struggle GREATLY against terminator equivalents.

True, luckily barely anyone takes termies anymore, more so now that hammernators are gonna be 5 points more...

That's not really a lucky thing. One of the most iconic fluffy units of space marines, and nobody takes them because there an expensive detriment and point sink in your army. They should have taken the opportunity to nerf plasma equivilents to be ap 3 also, like they did power weapons. It really is a shame because they really are a drag now. 450 points for 10 thunder hammer termies? With as many things as there are that kill them, 30 points should have been what they were reduced to. But now its too late, and yet another edition will go by with them being garbage.

 Breotan wrote:
Those are Mk IV "Maximus" helmets. Forge World has been producing them for a long time. I think there's one on the current Black Templar upgrade sprue.

However the FW ones look much nicer than the ones GW have done in plastic, IMHO.

 gmaleron wrote:
Just to give you guys a little preview of the rough draft I have created for the army I plan to build! I was able to get a great deal for some Crisis Suits that I had and was able to purchase x5 Drop Pods and x2 Stormtalons for them and this is what I am planning so let me know what you think! :

Spoiler:

Raven Guard Drop-Pod Assault Group Raptor

Chapter Tactic:

-Imperial Fists

HQ:

-Shadow Captain Aleron (Pedro Kantor)

ELITE:

-x10 Sternguard (*Combat Squad*)
*w/ x1 or x2 Combi Melta
-Drop Pod

-x10 Sternguard (*Combat Squad*)
*w/ x1 or x2 Combi Melta
-Drop Pod

-x10 Sternguard (*Combat Squad*)
*w/ x1 or x2 Combi Melta
-Drop Pod

TROOPS:

-x5 Tac Marines
*w/ Melta (or) Flamer (or) Grav Gun
-Drop Pod

-x5 Tac Marines
*w/ Melta (or) Flamer (or) Grav Gun
-Drop Pod

FAST ATTACK:

-Stormtalon
*w/ TL-Lascannon

-Stormtalon
*w/ TL-Lascannon

HEAVY SUPPORT:

-Thunderfire Cannon
*w/ Drop Pod

-Thunderfire Cannon
*w/ Drop Pod

Now just to make sure, will x5 man Tac Squads be able to take Drop Pods like the Space Wolf Codex? Or will they have to be x10 man (looked on here could not find it). Also any word if Thunderfire Cannons will remain or be relentless? Thanks for helping a new Space Marine player out!

minimalist troops.
no thunder hammer termies in imperial fists
using crimson fist character to lead imperial fists army, allowed or not

2/10, would not purge xenos with.

seriously, why not paint your guys crimson fists. Same chapter tactics but your army represents them much better.

Orock wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

 Largeblastmarker wrote:
They will struggle GREATLY against terminator equivalents.

True, luckily barely anyone takes termies anymore, more so now that hammernators are gonna be 5 points more...

That's not really a lucky thing. One of the most iconic fluffy units of space marines, and nobody takes them because there an expensive detriment and point sink in your army. They should have taken the opportunity to nerf plasma equivilents to be ap 3 also, like they did power weapons. It really is a shame because they really are a drag now. 450 points for 10 thunder hammer termies? With as many things as there are that kill them, 30 points should have been what they were reduced to. But now its too late, and yet another edition will go by with them being garbage.

I'm still going to take a unit of Terminators. They've always done well in my games.

 Breotan wrote:

 Vain wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Personally I don't like the new MkVII models. They looks different. Longer "noses", larger pads, rounder chests. Maybe its just the pic but they look like a step back from the one on sale now.

Any particular models? Are you meaning the Character models, or are you basing this on the new Stern/Van kits, or are you talking about the Tac kit?

If it is the Tac box then I think you be cray-z, as for the others I am not really seeing the "longer noses" or what have you. Could you link the pic you think reflects this the most?

Yea, I'm not seeing whatever it is he's talking about either. I even grabbed some of my Tactical bits and DV/AoBR starter marines to compare.

The Mk7 heads in particular on the Tac Squad. The nose piece looks too long compared to the current one and the shoulders look longer. Maybe its just the way the image is taken. The chest I'm refering to is the Mk6 which looks rounded and barrel-like. In fact the Mk6 marine in the Tac Squad pic looks very much like an older, 3rd ed or so model. Maybe not to that extent but certainly not as good in any way as modern kits.

The Sternguard look good except the Mk4 guy, which is because I dislike that particular version of Mk4 helmets with the long nose. I prefer the FW helmets is all.

Calgar allowing all your dudes to fail morale is huge. Wasn't expecting UM to retain the original CT. With that on top of being able to use one doctrine twice, and getting 3 Warlord Traits, he's going to be very good.

using crimson fist character to lead imperial fists army, allowed or not

Don't CF and IF use the same combat tactics?

 wtwlf123 wrote:
Calgar allowing all your dudes to fail morale is huge. Wasn't expecting UM to retain the original CT. With that on top of being able to use one doctrine twice, and getting 3 Warlord Traits, he's going to be very good.

using crimson fist character to lead imperial fists army, allowed or not

Don't CF and IF use the same combat tactics?

Calgar doesn't get three warlord traits, he rolls 3 times (rerolling doubles) and picks one of those.

And yes, CF and IF have the same trait it seems.

Puscifer wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

but seeing a unit of power axe wielding nutters take out an equally pointed assault terminator squad,

So everyones up to speed here's the maths 10 assault terminators will be 450 points (using big numbers for easy maths) that's 18 HG.

You strike at the same time (we'll assume you magically got into combat with no one charging)

Terminators: 20 attacks 10 Hits 8.33 dead HG.
HG: 54 attacks 27 hits 18 wounds 6 dead HG

HG lose combat but will win the war of attrition as the Terminators are down to 4 guys.

Round 2 assuming HG run away and the Teinators charge them:

Termmies: 12 attacks 6 hits 5 more dead.
HG: 30 attacks 15 hits 10 wounds 3 TDAs dead down to 1 Terminator...

Last round Terminators: 2 attacks 1 hit 1 dead.
HG: 15 attacks 7.5 hits 5 wounds last termmie is over killed. Still 4 HG left.

That's ignoring shooting (which HG do and Terminators don't) against any other type of terminator the story is worse for the Terminator. At 25 points HG become a top tier combat unit.

Thanks for working that out.

I got one question...

Can I use Marneus as a counts as leader.

I'll use the UM rules, I just don't fancy painting that much blue and gold.

Vacuum math is so stupid, honestly who will take all axes on HG? It will mean going second against a whole string of opponents that aren't wearing 2+ armor. Honestly, with 3 attacks before charging I would consider a few power mauls. This way you have a shot against walkers and such.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Breotan wrote:

 Vain wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Personally I don't like the new MkVII models. They looks different. Longer "noses", larger pads, rounder chests. Maybe its just the pic but they look like a step back from the one on sale now.

Any particular models? Are you meaning the Character models, or are you basing this on the new Stern/Van kits, or are you talking about the Tac kit?

If it is the Tac box then I think you be cray-z, as for the others I am not really seeing the "longer noses" or what have you. Could you link the pic you think reflects this the most?

Yea, I'm not seeing whatever it is he's talking about either. I even grabbed some of my Tactical bits and DV/AoBR starter marines to compare.

The Mk7 heads in particular on the Tac Squad. The nose piece looks too long compared to the current one and the shoulders look longer. Maybe its just the way the image is taken. The chest I'm refering to is the Mk6 which looks rounded and barrel-like. In fact the Mk6 marine in the Tac Squad pic looks very much like an older, 3rd ed or so model. Maybe not to that extent but certainly not as good in any way as modern kits.

The Sternguard look good except the Mk4 guy, which is because I dislike that particular version of Mk4 helmets with the long nose. I prefer the FW helmets is all.

Mk6 pads always look longer because they lack that trim around the edges. As for any real differences I feel like your vision is much better then mine or your just being way too critical.

 Vaktathi wrote:
I can't fathom how people thought Hammernators were going to get cheaper. 2+sv's became a lot more survivable in CC in general (so the value of that save has increased), 3+ invuls matter more against shooting now that 4+ cover isn't the norm (and thus is still super valuable), and normal terminators don't bring enough shooting to offset the survivability advantage. Yeah, CC isn't as potent in general as it previously was, but the Hammernators going down in cost just realistically wasn't going to happen, especially not with how the CSM and DA books treated terminators.

Because whatever meelee lost in AP, shooting has made up for in spades in 6th. You have riptides now, tau are a lot more prevalent now that their flavor of the month. There are a lot more volume of fire armies, necron do it well. So they die more often to massed firepower. Some armies have such overwhelming units against armor 3 now (helldrakes) that they can afford to pack the rest of their list with say lascannons or meltas. And lets not forget, the armies that can carry a lot of 2+ saves now just got even MORE weapons to shoot at termies in the form of grav guns. Lets say 3 centurions shoot with grav guns at a squad of 10 TH/SS termies. 15 shots, 10 hits, 10 wounds. You dident read that wrong, 10 wounds because 2s needed to wound, and reroll failed wounds. Now lets make their saves. 3+. so right away you have lost 3 or 4 termies. Those centurions cost a bit over half that, but they too are vulnerable to ap 2 weapons, though with 5 toughness and 2 wounds each.

2+ saves have NEVER been more worthless then they are now. That's why the price hike in points is so stupid.

And the previous example with regular terminators with 5+ invun? 7 or 8 dead. That is just stupid and the reason nobody uses termies at 40, much less 45.

Hammernators did need a points increase. As at the sane points as LC terminators only a complete moron would take LC Terminators and few in their right mind would take shooty terminators. Hammernators are the best Terminators therefore they should be more points than other Terminators.

Should Terminators be 40 points base? Well that's a different argument but with Baledrakes and Vector strikes and VWBs around Terminators look good in this meta. But you're largely paying for CC prowess which has been greatly curtailed in this edition. Terminators where great in the last Edition this time they are more situational with HG looking a better bet. Next edition they may be more prevalent again. But to suggest a Terminator with TH+SS should be a point LESS than one with Power Weapon and combibolter is frankly ludicrous. Perhaps Teinators at 35 base (with Chaos ones being 26) would have suited this edition better. However personally I think it would have made Terminators too good. Assault isn't great in this edition get over it.

 Red Corsair wrote:


Vacuum math is so stupid, honestly who will take all axes on HG? It will mean going second against a whole string of opponents that aren't wearing 2+ armor. Honestly, with 3 attacks before charging I would consider a few power mauls. This way you have a shot against walkers and such.

Agreed, I think mauls are probably the best weapon for them, maybe give one guy a hammer for some big stuff, but a squad of these guys with a chappy will mow through horde. I'm sure the maul outperforms the sword in all cases except AP3 (even then a squad with a chappy will still kill ~5 marines a turn on the charge).

ClockworkZion wrote:

 wtwlf123 wrote:
Calgar allowing all your dudes to fail morale is huge. Wasn't expecting UM to retain the original CT. With that on top of being able to use one doctrine twice, and getting 3 Warlord Traits, he's going to be very good.

using crimson fist character to lead imperial fists army, allowed or not

Don't CF and IF use the same combat tactics?

Calgar doesn't get three warlord traits, he rolls 3 times (rerolling doubles) and picks one of those.

And yes, CF and IF have the same trait it seems.

Oh okay cool, thanks for clarifying. Much more reasonable that way.

Who will take all axes on HG?

I'd go with 9 with axes and the champ with TH.

It won't matter if I hit last... whatever I hit back is dead or severely mauled.

Honestly, I think LotD will be the dark horse of this edition. I wish I had painted all 27 of my models before this codex came out so I wouldn't have to face FotM cries.

 AtoMaki wrote:

Puscifer wrote:

If you don't deal with them, they are going to murder your infantry or worse. It's not the fact they will run you down, whatever they face in cc, will just die. They have enough attacks and wounds to take out anything.

And what if the infantry they want to butcher simply runs away? It's not like they can really catch up...

Then those infantry just ran off of an objective and I win

Chapter Master Pedro Kantor:
- +1 Attack
- Oath of Rynn: If Chapter Master Kantor is your Warlord all models in Crimson Fist detachments have the Preferred Enemy (Orks) Special Rule. Furthermore, all such models within 12" of Kantor have +1 Attack while he lives. This bonus does not affector Kantor, and is not cimulative with the similar bonuse that the Chapter Banner gives.

so does this mean that if i take 2 detachments, say Crimson Fists and UltraMarines, that only the CrimsonFist guys would benefit from Pedro's attack bubble? thats how it reads to me.

 SickSix wrote:
Honestly, I think LotD will be the dark horse of this edition. I wish I had painted all 27 of my models before this codex came out so I wouldn't have to face FotM cries.

Depends on their point cost and weapon load outs. They were never bad, they just couldn't capitalise on their strengths for their cost.

Yes. Only the models in his detachment.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Assault isn't great in this edition get over it.

First I agree with you that hammer terminators should be the most points, as they are the best, and also that ALL terminators should have had a points drop across the board. But to come out and say assault isn't great this edition get over it is dumb. You are completely invalidating 2 or 3 armies default best playstyle, and don't think that the age of all shooting or go home weakens the game. It does. Its a much less interesting game if you don't have to build your lists to fight that one guy who brings a swamp ya army, because nobody plays it anymore. If gw told all the nid and ork fans to "get over it" they would just be alienating even more of their fanbase.

Orock wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Assault isn't great in this edition get over it.

First I agree with you that hammer terminators should be the most points, as they are the best, and also that ALL terminators should have had a points drop across the board. But to come out and say assault isn't great this edition get over it is dumb. You are completely invalidating 2 or 3 armies default best playstyle, and don't think that the age of all shooting or go home weakens the game. It does. Its a much less interesting game if you don't have to build your lists to fight that one guy who brings a swamp ya army, because nobody plays it anymore. If gw told all the nid and ork fans to "get over it" they would just be alienating even more of their fanbase.

A thousand times this.