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 SickSix wrote:

 Davespil wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Davespil wrote:
No. And that's the reason why I don't. In 10,000 years the only changes they've made were literally cosmetic.

Well if you read the fluff you might understand why... Complaining about the fluff with having no knowledge of it is just bafflingly arrogant and small minded. Reminds me of the creationist attitude.

I don't read the fluff because I have a military background and it sounds as if it was made up by a 12 year-old and written by a junior in highschool. If I was a creationist I would whole-heartedly embrace the dark age-religous stupidity explorered in the fluff. I just pointed out a fact that I found amusing.

So because you have a 'military background' you can't suspend disbelief but you can play with toy soldiers?

OK buddy

Careful people, we have a tough guy here

 SickSix wrote:

 Davespil wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Davespil wrote:
No. And that's the reason why I don't. In 10,000 years the only changes they've made were literally cosmetic.

Well if you read the fluff you might understand why... Complaining about the fluff with having no knowledge of it is just bafflingly arrogant and small minded. Reminds me of the creationist attitude.

I don't read the fluff because I have a military background and it sounds as if it was made up by a 12 year-old and written by a junior in highschool. If I was a creationist I would whole-heartedly embrace the dark age-religous stupidity explorered in the fluff. I just pointed out a fact that I found amusing.

So because you have a 'military background' you can't suspend disbelief but you can play with toy soldiers?

OK buddy

I can suspend belief all day. But not logic...

 frozenwastes wrote:

Lots of people get into 40k and like Space Marines because they like sci-fi and become less enthused and certainly less interested in the background fiction once they discover it's not actually science fiction, but some sort of dystopian space fantasy with space knights, demonic forces, magic and a caricature of medieval Catholicism. i can totally get people not caring about the background fiction when they were expecting one thing and found it to be another upon closer inspection.

All those non-scifi elements you mention are the things that make 40K unique, and the reason why many people love it.

 Davespil wrote:

 SickSix wrote:

 Davespil wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Davespil wrote:
No. And that's the reason why I don't. In 10,000 years the only changes they've made were literally cosmetic.

Well if you read the fluff you might understand why... Complaining about the fluff with having no knowledge of it is just bafflingly arrogant and small minded. Reminds me of the creationist attitude.

I don't read the fluff because I have a military background and it sounds as if it was made up by a 12 year-old and written by a junior in highschool. If I was a creationist I would whole-heartedly embrace the dark age-religous stupidity explorered in the fluff. I just pointed out a fact that I found amusing.

So because you have a 'military background' you can't suspend disbelief but you can play with toy soldiers?

OK buddy

I can suspend belief all day. But not logic...

Honestly, the background is a lot more logical than you think it is.

You complain about the lack of the adavances in the Imperium over 10,000 years. How long did it take the US military to stop fighting WWII style? Then how long to stop fighting like the Cold War? How long does it take for the gear/weapons that the elite operators use to filter down to the line troops?

Now, take into account the exponential size difference from the US to the Imperium and it would literally take thousands of years for gak to change.

Hey!. Why are all the Neanderthal chest thumpers going after creationists in a thread about a new space marine book? If you need to compensate by taking intellectually dishonest cheap shots at uninvolved third parties, go somewhere else.

Back OT: anyone heard the fluff explanations for Centurions? I'm very curious as to what they are.

 Davespil wrote:

I can suspend belief all day. But not logic...

Why do you even use logic or anything in a fantasy/sci-fi setting beats me... seriously.

Now I can't wait till Saturday for pre-order. Want to get some new Sternguard, the new Libby and The Hunter.
Magnificent beards everywhere.

 Lobukia wrote:
Hey!. Why are all the Neanderthal chest thumpers going after creationists in a thread about a new space marine book? If you need to compensate by taking intellectually dishonest cheap shots at uninvolved third parties, go somewhere else.

Back OT: anyone heard the fluff explanations for Centurions? I'm very curious as to what they are.

I think it was that the built a psuedo TDA exoskeleton for the Marines because they no longer knew how to make new TDA.

 SickSix wrote:

 Davespil wrote:

 SickSix wrote:

 Davespil wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Davespil wrote:
No. And that's the reason why I don't. In 10,000 years the only changes they've made were literally cosmetic.

Well if you read the fluff you might understand why... Complaining about the fluff with having no knowledge of it is just bafflingly arrogant and small minded. Reminds me of the creationist attitude.

I don't read the fluff because I have a military background and it sounds as if it was made up by a 12 year-old and written by a junior in highschool. If I was a creationist I would whole-heartedly embrace the dark age-religous stupidity explorered in the fluff. I just pointed out a fact that I found amusing.

So because you have a 'military background' you can't suspend disbelief but you can play with toy soldiers?

OK buddy

I can suspend belief all day. But not logic...

Honestly, the background is a lot more logical than you think it is.

You complain about the lack of the adavances in the Imperium over 10,000 years. How long did it take the US military to stop fighting WWII style? Then how long to stop fighting like the Cold War? How long does it take for the gear/weapons that the elite operators use to filter down to the line troops?

Now, take into account the exponential size difference from the US to the Imperium and it would literally take thousands of years for gak to change.

I hate to have hijacked this thread but we made significate advances in warfare between WWII (1941-1945 (for us)) and the Korean War (1950-1953). Helicopters, guided missiles, close air support, and jets... Just to name a few. And military technology advances much faster in war-time than not. In 1000 years think of the advances that we can make. And with the internet (or what even comes after that) think of how fast that information can be disseminated. Why would everything come from a central location? Would there not be engineers on every planet? Constantly tweeking and upgrading and redesigning to make things better? Humans are constantly moving foward in technology and science. And we will continue to advance our understanding of technology until there aren't any of us left. Either as a master of technology or its slave, we will continue to move foward.

 Davespil wrote:
Why would everything come from a central location? Would there not be engineers on every planet? Constantly tweeking and upgrading and redesigning to make things better? Humans are constantly moving foward in technology and science. And we will continue to advance our understanding of technology until there aren't any of us left. Either as a master of technology or its slave, we will continue to move foward.

Because daemons.

Humanity did the logical/practical thing for 28,000 years and it didn't work out super great in the end so they went back to being technologically superstitious and backwards, which is not all that unreasonable when making a 5% more efficient lasgun power cell results in your machinery becoming possessed and your planet getting destroyed by daemons. This is a pretty core tenant of the 40k fluff, you might want to check out a main fluff source :^)

 Davespil wrote:

 SickSix wrote:

 Davespil wrote:

 SickSix wrote:

 Davespil wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Davespil wrote:
No. And that's the reason why I don't. In 10,000 years the only changes they've made were literally cosmetic.

Well if you read the fluff you might understand why... Complaining about the fluff with having no knowledge of it is just bafflingly arrogant and small minded. Reminds me of the creationist attitude.

I don't read the fluff because I have a military background and it sounds as if it was made up by a 12 year-old and written by a junior in highschool. If I was a creationist I would whole-heartedly embrace the dark age-religous stupidity explorered in the fluff. I just pointed out a fact that I found amusing.

So because you have a 'military background' you can't suspend disbelief but you can play with toy soldiers?

OK buddy

I can suspend belief all day. But not logic...

Honestly, the background is a lot more logical than you think it is.

You complain about the lack of the adavances in the Imperium over 10,000 years. How long did it take the US military to stop fighting WWII style? Then how long to stop fighting like the Cold War? How long does it take for the gear/weapons that the elite operators use to filter down to the line troops?

Now, take into account the exponential size difference from the US to the Imperium and it would literally take thousands of years for gak to change.

I hate to have hijacked this thread but we made significate advances in warfare between WWII (1941-1945 (for us)) and the Korean War (1950-1953). Helicopters, guided missiles, close air support, and jets... Just to name a few. And military technology advances much faster in war-time than not. In 1000 years think of the advances that we can make. And with the internet (or what even comes after that) think of how fast that information can be disseminated. Why would everything come from a central location? Would there not be engineers on every planet? Constantly tweeking and upgrading and redesigning to make things better? Humans are constantly moving foward in technology and science. And we will continue to advance our understanding of technology until there aren't any of us left. Either as a master of technology or its slave, we will continue to move foward.

because when you start tweaking how things work in this setting, someone shoots you in the face for violating the machine spirit.

And the cost/gain benefit has turned in favour of just losing men. Why expend expensive tech in 40K, which they have, when its way cheaper just to get a million guard massacred.

Any word on the cover art? From what Ive seen its going to be ultramarines on the standard and on one of the limited covers?

 Davespil wrote:

 SickSix wrote:

 Davespil wrote:

 SickSix wrote:

 Davespil wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Davespil wrote:
No. And that's the reason why I don't. In 10,000 years the only changes they've made were literally cosmetic.

Well if you read the fluff you might understand why... Complaining about the fluff with having no knowledge of it is just bafflingly arrogant and small minded. Reminds me of the creationist attitude.

I don't read the fluff because I have a military background and it sounds as if it was made up by a 12 year-old and written by a junior in highschool. If I was a creationist I would whole-heartedly embrace the dark age-religous stupidity explorered in the fluff. I just pointed out a fact that I found amusing.

So because you have a 'military background' you can't suspend disbelief but you can play with toy soldiers?

OK buddy

I can suspend belief all day. But not logic...

Honestly, the background is a lot more logical than you think it is.

You complain about the lack of the adavances in the Imperium over 10,000 years. How long did it take the US military to stop fighting WWII style? Then how long to stop fighting like the Cold War? How long does it take for the gear/weapons that the elite operators use to filter down to the line troops?

Now, take into account the exponential size difference from the US to the Imperium and it would literally take thousands of years for gak to change.

I hate to have hijacked this thread but we made significate advances in warfare between WWII (1941-1945 (for us)) and the Korean War (1950-1953). Helicopters, guided missiles, close air support, and jets... Just to name a few. And military technology advances much faster in war-time than not. In 1000 years think of the advances that we can make. And with the internet (or what even comes after that) think of how fast that information can be disseminated. Why would everything come from a central location? Would there not be engineers on every planet? Constantly tweeking and upgrading and redesigning to make things better? Humans are constantly moving foward in technology and science. And we will continue to advance our understanding of technology until there aren't any of us left. Either as a master of technology or its slave, we will continue to move foward.

This is all covered in the background that you don't like and don't want to read. Why are you cluttering up this already cluster F****D thread with this debate? If you don't like the background or rules play something else or better yet complain about it in the proper topic not the news and rumors section please.

When are we going to get some definitive prices in AUSSIE $$$$?

 Davespil wrote:
And we will continue to advance our understanding of technology until there aren't any of us left. Either as a master of technology or its slave, we will continue to move foward.

You see, that's the problem. Fewer and fewer of us truly understand much of the technology we're surrounded by. I understand the basic principles of a steam engine, and could probably build a basic one given enough time and supplies, but there's no way I could ever build this amazing piece of engineering. And that's one of the fundamental foundations upon which 40K is built: the people how understand the technology are long gone, only the people who know who to maintain and build the machines (i.e. the factory workers, not the engineers) are all that's left.

@Davespill the Greek dark ages, fall of Cahokia, Mongolia, and the European Middle Ages would like a word with you (there's more, but that's just off the top of my head).

I think we can accept following to be true:
- There's no conceivable way Imperial worlds would not have advanced more after several *millennia*.
- The impossible stagnation serves as both literary flavor and conviently ties in with real-world product releases and manufacturing concerns(Rhinos/Razorbacks/Whirlwinds/Vindicators/Predators all based on the same STC...because maybe it's cheaper to produce those molds that way).
- All of this is off-topic.

 Davespil wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Davespil wrote:
No. And that's the reason why I don't. In 10,000 years the only changes they've made were literally cosmetic.

Well if you read the fluff you might understand why... Complaining about the fluff with having no knowledge of it is just bafflingly arrogant and small minded. Reminds me of the creationist attitude.

I don't read the fluff because I have a military background and it sounds as if it was made up by a 12 year-old and written by a junior in highschool. If I was a creationist I would whole-heartedly embrace the dark age-religous stupidity explorered in the fluff. I just pointed out a fact that I found amusing.

I have a military background to and guess what, I think 40k fluff is not over-the-top enough militarily.

I want Chainsaw guns personally.

Most of the allure of the 40k universe fluff is the fact that technology, society, etc. DID become stagnant, almost regressive in several aspects. Although I agree this is far fetched by modern standards, it certainly makes for better fiction and storytelling in the 40k game. In other words, the fact that the "unthinkable" (complete stagnation of mankind on a galactic scale) took place, makes for an interesting game to play in, not to mention good fiction to write and think about. If things did progress logically, if humans did advance in a linear fashion for 38,000 years, they would be ridiculously powerful or perhaps near perfect beings. That doesn't make for a very rich gaming background. Chances are, there wouldn't be any enemies left ot fight due to destruction or assimilation into the Imperium. That, to me, isn't a very fun game to play in. If so, I would reroll Tau.
The current Imperium reminds me of the last days of the Roman Empire- an empire under seige on all sides, struggling socially, politically, religiously, economically and barely clinging to it's borders.

And there's daemons. Real life daemons.

 Davespil wrote:

 SickSix wrote:

 Davespil wrote:

 SickSix wrote:

 Davespil wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Davespil wrote:
No. And that's the reason why I don't. In 10,000 years the only changes they've made were literally cosmetic.

Well if you read the fluff you might understand why... Complaining about the fluff with having no knowledge of it is just bafflingly arrogant and small minded. Reminds me of the creationist attitude.

I don't read the fluff because I have a military background and it sounds as if it was made up by a 12 year-old and written by a junior in highschool. If I was a creationist I would whole-heartedly embrace the dark age-religous stupidity explorered in the fluff. I just pointed out a fact that I found amusing.

So because you have a 'military background' you can't suspend disbelief but you can play with toy soldiers?

OK buddy

I can suspend belief all day. But not logic...

Honestly, the background is a lot more logical than you think it is.

You complain about the lack of the adavances in the Imperium over 10,000 years. How long did it take the US military to stop fighting WWII style? Then how long to stop fighting like the Cold War? How long does it take for the gear/weapons that the elite operators use to filter down to the line troops?

Now, take into account the exponential size difference from the US to the Imperium and it would literally take thousands of years for gak to change.

I hate to have hijacked this thread but we made significate advances in warfare between WWII (1941-1945 (for us)) and the Korean War (1950-1953). Helicopters, guided missiles, close air support, and jets... Just to name a few. And military technology advances much faster in war-time than not. In 1000 years think of the advances that we can make. And with the internet (or what even comes after that) think of how fast that information can be disseminated. Why would everything come from a central location? Would there not be engineers on every planet? Constantly tweeking and upgrading and redesigning to make things better? Humans are constantly moving foward in technology and science. And we will continue to advance our understanding of technology until there aren't any of us left. Either as a master of technology or its slave, we will continue to move foward.

you need to read up on your history matey, the 'dark ages of technology' in the imperium are based on the european dark ages, when europe went from the roman empire - the most technologically, socially, politically and militarily advanced organisation the world had ever seen; into the dark ages - where virtually all scientific and mathematic knowledge was forgotten and society essentially began again.

It is by no means assured that anyone in the year 3000 will know about nuclear power, or space-time, or how to build a computer. Humanity can go backwards as well as forwards, and the decline from 30k to 40k isn't actually all that bad, especially compared to the actual dark ages.

xruslanx wrote:

 Davespil wrote:

 SickSix wrote:

 Davespil wrote:

 SickSix wrote:

 Davespil wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Davespil wrote:
No. And that's the reason why I don't. In 10,000 years the only changes they've made were literally cosmetic.

Well if you read the fluff you might understand why... Complaining about the fluff with having no knowledge of it is just bafflingly arrogant and small minded. Reminds me of the creationist attitude.

I don't read the fluff because I have a military background and it sounds as if it was made up by a 12 year-old and written by a junior in highschool. If I was a creationist I would whole-heartedly embrace the dark age-religous stupidity explorered in the fluff. I just pointed out a fact that I found amusing.

So because you have a 'military background' you can't suspend disbelief but you can play with toy soldiers?

OK buddy

I can suspend belief all day. But not logic...

Honestly, the background is a lot more logical than you think it is.

You complain about the lack of the adavances in the Imperium over 10,000 years. How long did it take the US military to stop fighting WWII style? Then how long to stop fighting like the Cold War? How long does it take for the gear/weapons that the elite operators use to filter down to the line troops?

Now, take into account the exponential size difference from the US to the Imperium and it would literally take thousands of years for gak to change.

I hate to have hijacked this thread but we made significate advances in warfare between WWII (1941-1945 (for us)) and the Korean War (1950-1953). Helicopters, guided missiles, close air support, and jets... Just to name a few. And military technology advances much faster in war-time than not. In 1000 years think of the advances that we can make. And with the internet (or what even comes after that) think of how fast that information can be disseminated. Why would everything come from a central location? Would there not be engineers on every planet? Constantly tweeking and upgrading and redesigning to make things better? Humans are constantly moving foward in technology and science. And we will continue to advance our understanding of technology until there aren't any of us left. Either as a master of technology or its slave, we will continue to move foward.

you need to read up on your history matey, the 'dark ages of technology' in the imperium are based on the european dark ages, when europe went from the roman empire - the most technologically, socially, politically and militarily advanced organisation the world had ever seen; into the dark ages - where virtually all scientific and mathematic knowledge was forgotten and society essentially began again.

It is by no means assured that anyone in the year 3000 will know about nuclear power, or space-time, or how to build a computer. Humanity can go backwards as well as forwards, and the decline from 30k to 40k isn't actually all that bad, especially compared to the actual dark ages.

Sorry but I have to say this, as a history major, The entire concept of the Dark Ages is a crock of ****. I would list the reasons why, but 1: It would take a 10 page essay to do so, 2. I'm not being graded so I don't see the point. and 3. I have to go in half an hour.

Just be content with knowing there is no such thing as the "dark ages." The term was created in the 14th century by renaissance historian revisionists who were basically Greco-Roman fanboys...

 Harriticus wrote:

I have a military background to and guess what, I think 40k fluff is not over-the-top enough militarily.

I want Chainsaw guns personally.

I've also been in the service for a good minute (out now) but I still enjoy 40k's fluff. It love every glorious, over the top bit of it.

Come on guys, let's all try and stay on topic. We're so close to this 'dex, it'd be a shame to have to restart our rumor thread now because of a lock.

Can't wait to pick over the minutiae in detail. Has anyone heard more concrete info on the chapter relics, or is it still all conjecture? I skimmed several pages, but I admit that I came in late and haven't found it.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Come on guys, let's all try and stay on topic. We're so close to this 'dex, it'd be a shame to have to restart our rumor thread now because of a lock.

Can't wait to pick over the minutiae in detail. Has anyone heard more concrete info on the chapter relics, or is it still all conjecture? I skimmed several pages, but I admit that I came in late and haven't found it.

All we know about the relics is that there are going to be 6 of them, they range from 25-65 points, one is armor and one is a stormshield, and one of them gives EW.

 Davespil wrote:

 SickSix wrote:

 Davespil wrote:

 SickSix wrote:

 Davespil wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Davespil wrote:
No. And that's the reason why I don't. In 10,000 years the only changes they've made were literally cosmetic.

Well if you read the fluff you might understand why... Complaining about the fluff with having no knowledge of it is just bafflingly arrogant and small minded. Reminds me of the creationist attitude.

I don't read the fluff because I have a military background and it sounds as if it was made up by a 12 year-old and written by a junior in highschool. If I was a creationist I would whole-heartedly embrace the dark age-religous stupidity explorered in the fluff. I just pointed out a fact that I found amusing.

So because you have a 'military background' you can't suspend disbelief but you can play with toy soldiers?

OK buddy

I can suspend belief all day. But not logic...

Honestly, the background is a lot more logical than you think it is.

You complain about the lack of the adavances in the Imperium over 10,000 years. How long did it take the US military to stop fighting WWII style? Then how long to stop fighting like the Cold War? How long does it take for the gear/weapons that the elite operators use to filter down to the line troops?

Now, take into account the exponential size difference from the US to the Imperium and it would literally take thousands of years for gak to change.

I hate to have hijacked this thread but we made significate advances in warfare between WWII (1941-1945 (for us)) and the Korean War (1950-1953). Helicopters, guided missiles, close air support, and jets... Just to name a few. And military technology advances much faster in war-time than not. In 1000 years think of the advances that we can make. And with the internet (or what even comes after that) think of how fast that information can be disseminated. Why would everything come from a central location? Would there not be engineers on every planet? Constantly tweeking and upgrading and redesigning to make things better? Humans are constantly moving foward in technology and science. And we will continue to advance our understanding of technology until there aren't any of us left. Either as a master of technology or its slave, we will continue to move foward.

This is where I have to politely disagree ... ever heard of the Dark Ages? This is not some mythical thing in human history, it actually happened.
It was called the Dark Ages because for 400 years science did not progress, but it actually regressed due to the political power held by the church. (Side note ... I am knock knocking any political beliefs at all, just pointing out that people in power want to STAY in power and the church had power a plenty at the time.) I would think that this is perhaps where the idea of a monumental stall in human expansion and discovery comes from in the 40k universe.

Honestly, if you said that the world was revolving around the sun about 600 years ago ... they would have flayed your skin off and set you afire as a heretic ... this was only 600 years ago?!?

 Harriticus wrote:


I have a military background to and guess what, I think 40k fluff is not over-the-top enough militarily.

I want Chainsaw guns personally.

You're only saying that because you don't have one of these:




I think if you order now you'll get a second one free plus a matching set of steak knives.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Robbo97 wrote:
When are we going to get some definitive prices in AUSSIE $$$$?

Just bend over and grab your ankles, you know it aint going to be pretty whatever it is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also nice that mk6 torsos have now been confirmed for the tac box. Pity that they resemble the FW ones with the separate chest plastron rather than the solid front they should have like the mk5.

"Telion:
- Chapter Tactics Ultramarines
- Same points cost
- Same rules"

Does this mean that unless you are ultramarines or have ulttramarines allies, that you can't take telion? This will really suck as I rely on him for my quadgun and scouts behind my aegis line.

I've been trying to search through this rumor post for answers and the most I got was:
"As for Telion, it even says in his fluff blurb that he goes and hangs out with other chapters that are close to the Ultramarines. Likely, they too follow the Ultramarines Doctrines. (But this is Okay, since if you are using Scouts, you'll probably be using Raven Guard or something - and Telion's stealth would be wasted)"

But I don't understand, is telion's squad using ultramarine rules, just telion, the whole army, or nobody in the army? Can he be taken by, say, crimson fists?

 Ryan_A wrote:
Does this mean that unless you are ultramarines or have ulttramarines allies, that you can't take telion? This will really suck as I rely on him for my quadgun and scouts behind my aegis line.

Yep. Telion for ultras and successors only.

 Ryan_A wrote:
"Telion:
- Chapter Tactics Ultramarines
- Same points cost
- Same rules"

Does this mean that unless you are ultramarines or have ulttramarines allies, that you can't take telion? This will really suck as I rely on him for my quadgun and scouts behind my aegis line.

Do what Tyranid players or any good General would do. Adapt.

You can take him, you just need to be using UM CT. (I think they are called chapter tactics.)

sigh, even dakka is not free of liberal hogwash. I love how only in the past 50 years have we decided that the dark ages didn't happen...even though more or less every educated person in the entire middle ages spent all their time lamenting its downfall.

Then there is the reinnacence - literally the redescovering of ancient greek and roman manuscripts regarding mathamatics and architecture that simply was not known before.

Plus the professional roman army, which was quite clearly superior to the fuedal levies that replaced it. Or do you think that a peasant with a stick is a match for a professional soldier in a chain iron shirt? The saddle was the only real advantage that the dark ages had, and that was stolen from the middle east.

Plus the levels of industrial activity that dwarfed anything that came after it, and was only surpassed at the outbreak of the industrial revolution.

But what did the romans ever do for us, eh?

So on-topic, think it might be possible that the relics are limited by Chapter Tactics as well as characters?