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With the Black Templars coming out this year (supposedly), I've seen most people's reaction to be one of these two. The first is tears of joy for the BT getting their own Codex while the second reaction I've seen is that people just want the BT to be a Supplement for C:SM. I'm just wondering which of the versions does DakkaDakka members support the most, Codex or Supplement for the BT and (if you want) why?

I want a codex because they are so unique just like then DA are.

A supplement should do for each of the space marine chapters, even the first founding ones.
The imperium is supposed to have stagnated 10,000 years ago, yet these chapters show remarkable developments and deviations from their starting point.
If CSM do not develop even though their techs have the freedom to innovate then why should SM?
Each chapter could be given a few pages to point out their slight differences, because as we all know they are all, or asquire to be Ultra Marines anyway ...

I imagine they will end up as a supplement. But I don't have a preference so I didn't vote.

Though I feel that there should be fewer Marines codexes, I find it hard not to sympathise with the BT fans, so I guess I'll vote yes. A full-blown BT codex would make a lot of people happy.

From what it sounds like, they are putting the Black Templar in to the main space marine codex. At least from the rumors coming out the new codex will have 7 chapter rules to follow. And with all the rumours about Black Templar units coming up, this could be the information that will be put in to the Space Marine codex under the Black Templar section.

I think it should be a supplement, they haven't done enough to justify there own codex, they don't vary from C:SM enough to warrant a whole different codex, neither has C: DA, IMHO C:SW and C:BA have done just enough, what with space wolves having "long fangs" and "grey hunters" "blood claws" and a near heretical approach to superstition, and the blood angels special rules give them enough room to say that they are separate from C:SM.

Honestly dont care either way, Ill just be happy to have them updated.

The supplememt system is ridiculous. $50 for the base book and almost that much to play a specific subset is asking just a bit too.much from players. That being said, I seriously doubt Templars would be a supplement.

My guess would be a unique Codex.

For one, they have their own tab in the allies chart.

More importantly, Supplements (thus far) are not translated into non-English languages. A BT Supplement would discontinue the Templars for GW's non-English markets (who all have translated rulebooks with Templars in the allies chart).

Of course, BT could be a supplement that gets "the full works" as far as translation and distribution goes, but at that point there wouldn't be any savings over just making it a Codex.

I've been wrong before however.

I believe it will be a supplement however, with all the new 6th edition rules and fliers in the mix; a revamp of some of the vows to make some of them more effective again, a full codex would be preferable. I for one would like the inclusion of some barage weapon functionality (Whirlwind or Thunderfire come to mind). I would also be happy with just a supplement if they broadedned the amount of "special chapters" in the game. Even more added to our Sisters of Battle would be quite welcome. As long as we get to kill more Xenos and purge the unclean i'll be happy.

 strybjorn Grimskull wrote:
I think it should be a supplement, they haven't done enough to justify there own codex, they don't vary from C:SM enough to warrant a whole different codex, neither has C: DA, IMHO C:SW and C:BA have done just enough, what with space wolves having "long fangs" and "grey hunters" "blood claws" and a near heretical approach to superstition, and the blood angels special rules give them enough room to say that they are separate from C:SM.

You do realize that blood angels are barely different from C:SM with the exception of their priests, and BT are completely different right: no Libby's at all, mixed squads, swarms of marines that aren't designed to hold their ground, but rather rush when they get shot...far different from "we get FNP cuz that guys has a cup of salty kool-aid".

 timetowaste85 wrote:


You do realize that blood angels are barely different from C:SM with the exception of their priests, and BT are completely different right: no Libby's at all, mixed squads, swarms of marines that aren't designed to hold their ground, but rather rush when they get shot...far different from "we get FNP cuz that guys has a cup of salty kool-aid".

I don't think the fluff matters in determining what gets a Codex or not.

The main factor will be "how many players are there for it".

The fluff can be changed to fit to justify a Codex. Black Templars were perfectly straight 100% Codex-compliant Imperial Fists-in-black until they got their own book.

Honestly, it's a wash. Whether or not they label the book a Codex or a Supplement is irrelevant, when what should actually matter is whether the new rules allow people to represent broadly the same force they have today, ideally with a few new additions within the theme. This notion that there's some kind of cachet in having a "proper Codex" is silly, and the reason we're stuck with Marine Bloat today.

The price is the only factor at play really, and that's a tradeoff; Codex+Supplement costs more than just Codex, obvie, but the return on that is that the Supplements will likely remain relevant for much longer than a unique Codex would, since C:SM is the most frequently updated 'dex, and any Supplements for the previous C:SM can be easily FAQ'd into line with the new version. It also means you get access to any new toys that comes with C:SM, unlike the poor Dark Angels who get one or two nice new things, and are then completely supplanted a few months later by the inevitable C:SM update.

I've always wanted two Space Marine Codex's. The first, a generic Ultra Marines codex that covers all of the space marine rules. The second, a suplemental codex for all the popular chapters that don't need (or can't justify) a separate codex of their own. This second codex would contain special rules, characters and special units for chapters like White Scars, Imperial Fists, Black Templars, Salamanders, Space Sharks and others, say 10 or so of the most common non Ultra Marine chapters.

Apparently it has been "confirmed" that BT are indeed getting rolled into C:SM.

I'd love a Codex of BT's own. But that's the fanboy in me... and the whole unique non-codex chapter thing.

Plus, I don't want to buy a C:SM then a BT Supplement.

Give 'em a page in C:SM and be done with it. I don't want moar mahreens clogging up the release schedule regardless of format.

http://natfka.blogspot.com/2013/08/black-templar-in-new-space-marines.html

I'll put this here for Angry Walrus

Supplement, but then I'd like to see every chapter that currently has their own codex released as a supplement to C:SM.

 Lobukia wrote:
http://natfka.blogspot.com/2013/08/black-templar-in-new-space-marines.html

I'll put this here for Angry Walrus

Way ahead of you!

By the looks of things though, it seems as if they're more or less just axing the BT Codex and including the same or similar rules in the Vanilla Codex (along with rules for the six "Legion Chapters" that don't have their own books) so we aren't losing the character of the army. I'm slightly positive to the idea, but I don't trust GW to not feth it up royally.

The "BT are the least unique" drivel is just rubbish though, they're at least on par with Space Wolves.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


The "BT are the least unique" drivel is just rubbish though, they're at least on par with Space Wolves.

Totally Agree... and I love the BT back story (why I don't play SW any more, but have slowly grown my BT). I will be thrilled if they let a Imperial Fist or Crimson Fist get back their Emperor's Champions and treat the BT as a more extreme extension of what makes CF and IF unique... and I'd definitely would like to see IF be the defensive experts, CF be the Sternguard Strikes, and BT being the smash your face in branch of the IF brotherhood... like you I'm leary of the superbook, but love the "idea" of it.

Well, I think that a supplement will do for each SM chapter. This would make it easier to provide updates with one core codex and several supplements.

Well thus far, BT would be the ONLY army to have a place in the Allies chart and be a Supplement.

And Blood Angels are less diverse than BT. They have 4 different units since their update, excluding characters. BT have 3.

Fluff-wise, we're either the most divergent or joint 1st with SW. And all of the "Less SM books" won't happen. If they recall the BT Codex and replace it with a Supplement, there will still be just as many SM books.

 timetowaste85 wrote:

 strybjorn Grimskull wrote:
I think it should be a supplement, they haven't done enough to justify there own codex, they don't vary from C:SM enough to warrant a whole different codex, neither has C: DA, IMHO C:SW and C:BA have done just enough, what with space wolves having "long fangs" and "grey hunters" "blood claws" and a near heretical approach to superstition, and the blood angels special rules give them enough room to say that they are separate from C:SM.

You do realize that blood angels are barely different from C:SM with the exception of their priests, and BT are completely different right: no Libby's at all, mixed squads, swarms of marines that aren't designed to hold their ground, but rather rush when they get shot...far different from "we get FNP cuz that guys has a cup of salty kool-aid".

Being ignorant of Libby's does not make you different it just makes you ignorant.

And I did say "he blood angels special rules give them enough room to say that they are separate from C:SM" meaning that I was refering to special rules not squads/models.

Blood Angels have Red Thirst and Descent of Angels. That's it. Templars have Righteous Zeal, No pity! No remorse! No fear!, Abhor the Witch and Vows. Not sure what you're on about.

If what I heard/read was correct, the current codexs SHOULD be still around as a seperate codex, so unless I see the actual BT supplement in my hand, I'm rooting for a actual codex. I'll be sad otherwise, but I'll look on the bright side and know that they will get a (hopefully) good update.

Black Templars are an awesome and DIFFERENT chapter, which means I feel it should be kept as it's own codex. That's just me.

Blood Angels on the other hand... Feel tacked on after a while, for me. Further, a lot of their individuality can be packed into a supplement.

Space Wolves will always have a codex.

HOWEVER, on the other hand, for people rooting for MORE chapter individuality (pyre guard for salamanders, etc.), then maybe BT and BA should be sold as supplements, and then have Sallies/IF/Raven Guard (maybe) supplements. Less in a single chapter, but more in others? Just me. I can understand both sides of the argument, but ultimately, I'm on the supplement side.

It should be folded into a single Space Marine codex along with all the other colours of marines except Grey Knights, which should go into the Forces of the Imperium codex along with SoB and the Ad Mech etc...

If all chapters got rolled I would say fine, supplement. But the DA book is already out, and SW and BA will definitely get their own books. Nine years ago the BT book was all about non Codex-adherent they are. Now theyre in the Codex Astartes book? An idiotic, fluff ignorant move on GWs part and a slap in the face to its customers.