Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Kroothawk wrote:

DufenDorgen wrote:
I disagree that nids need rang or need to be good at it. I think they need mobility and more models on the field.

Ever tried to fight 9 Necron flyers with 50 hormagaunts?

Fliers cant hold objectives, so it would be a draw right

Zanderchief wrote:
Well maybe they do the thing that has been suggested before with gargoyles clogging flyers engines or dragging down FMC through sheer weight. I'd be a cool little rule if done properly anyway.

That'd be kinda neat. Gargoyles move into contact with a flyer and take X number of casualties to cause X number of hits? It's what they seem to mostly do in the fluff, so it'd be cool to represent on the tabletop.

I thought hormagaunts could jump really high?

BeeCee wrote:
I thought hormagaunts could jump really high?

They can. In the art they've been shown to drag down(or at least leap at) Eldar jetbikes.

Zanderchief wrote:
Well maybe they do the thing that has been suggested before with gargoyles clogging flyers engines or dragging down FMC through sheer weight. I'd be a cool little rule if done properly anyway.

Yeah that would be cinematic! If a gargoyle brood activates its jump pack during the movement phase and moves over an enemy zooming flyer or swooping FMC unit they inflict a single strength X hit with the poisoned and haywire special rules for each model that passes over said unit .

For every 5, they may inflict 1 Haywire hit.

Zookie wrote:
Fliers cant hold objectives, so it would be a draw right

What do you think is inside those flyers?

Anyway, "Tyranids should handle everything via CC" is a pipedream that goes away when you realize that CC not only has the same drawbacks as last edition but got saddled with brand new ones with 6th.

Man... still no news huh. Hive Guard pic.. what a tease!

 Vhalyar wrote:

Zookie wrote:
Fliers cant hold objectives, so it would be a draw right

What do you think is inside those flyers?

Anyway, "Tyranids should handle everything via CC" is a pipedream that goes away when you realize that CC not only has the same drawbacks as last edition but got saddled with brand new ones with 6th.

Well some of them may be Doom Scythes. For all we know it could have been a 4k game with 6 Doom Scythes and 3 Night Scythes housing Sword&Board Lychguard.

Vhalyar wrote:

Zookie wrote:
Fliers cant hold objectives, so it would be a draw right

What do you think is inside those flyers?

Anyway, "Tyranids should handle everything via CC" is a pipedream that goes away when you realize that CC not only has the same drawbacks as last edition but got saddled with brand new ones with 6th.

That's why Tyranids get special rules to make them more adept at it in the new codex. Really simple. Also, CC isn't as hard to implement when people use the right amount and size of terrain. The number of people I see still using 2" tall plastic ruins in a game that now features Wraithknights and Riptides is baffling. Or they just use 4-5 blocks of terrain because that's how you created "roads" in 5th for all the tanks to move around.

Yes, they should have some shooting, but not Imperial artillery style, and certainly not as a staple answer that has to be included in every list.

 brassangel wrote:

Vhalyar wrote:

Zookie wrote:
Fliers cant hold objectives, so it would be a draw right

What do you think is inside those flyers?

Anyway, "Tyranids should handle everything via CC" is a pipedream that goes away when you realize that CC not only has the same drawbacks as last edition but got saddled with brand new ones with 6th.

That's why Tyranids get special rules to make them more adept at it in the new codex. Really simple. Also, CC isn't as hard to implement when people use the right amount and size of terrain. The number of people I see still using 2" tall plastic ruins in a game that now features Wraithknights and Riptides is baffling. Or they just use 4-5 blocks of terrain because that's how you created "roads" in 5th for all the tanks to move around.

Yes, they should have some shooting, but not Imperial artillery style, and certainly not as a staple answer that has to be included in every list.

Yeah, but I would like the VC, HVC and Tyrannofex to be viable. Also I would like to have answers to things like DE venom spam and Wave Serpent Spam that are quite hard to reach in CC.

Maybe that's the new hive guards weapon?

On a penetration against a Vehicle, it suffers an immobilized result as well as whatever result is rolled.

That'd be a nice touch... Giant pincer guns with their new arms to bunker themselves down!

I think carnifexes should have a rule that allows them to cause alot more damage to a unit inside a tank that it blows up. The main problem with having all assault units is killing transports then being murdered in the ensuing opponents turn, if our only options to kill a landraider is by attempting to get heavy hitting MCs to it in CC, we shouldn't be wiped out on the following turn as 5 terminators cut your face off!

 Bloodhorror wrote:
Maybe that's the new hive guards weapon?

On a penetration against a Vehicle, it suffers an immobilized result as well as whatever result is rolled.

That'd be a nice touch... Giant pincer guns with their new arms to bunker themselves down!

That gun looks like a harpoon to me. Those tendrils under slung on the gun look like ropes to tether the spear. There were rumours about it being effective at grounding flying monsters, so this likely fits.

 Tyran wrote:

 brassangel wrote:

Vhalyar wrote:

Zookie wrote:
Fliers cant hold objectives, so it would be a draw right

What do you think is inside those flyers?

Anyway, "Tyranids should handle everything via CC" is a pipedream that goes away when you realize that CC not only has the same drawbacks as last edition but got saddled with brand new ones with 6th.

That's why Tyranids get special rules to make them more adept at it in the new codex. Really simple. Also, CC isn't as hard to implement when people use the right amount and size of terrain. The number of people I see still using 2" tall plastic ruins in a game that now features Wraithknights and Riptides is baffling. Or they just use 4-5 blocks of terrain because that's how you created "roads" in 5th for all the tanks to move around.

Yes, they should have some shooting, but not Imperial artillery style, and certainly not as a staple answer that has to be included in every list.

Yeah, but I would like the VC, HVC and Tyrannofex to be viable. Also I would like to have answers to things like DE venom spam and Wave Serpent Spam that are quite hard to reach in CC.

The VC, HVC, and Tyrannofex should be viable. That can be fixed with simple points adjustments, and that should be the extent of our ranged firepower. Certainly not staples of the army. (I really consider Biovores a table top representation of deep striking a kamikaze unit: Spore Mines.) Tyranids should never have a 72", BS5 S10 AP1 Lance, Melta, Barrage, Ordinance, Armorbane, Destructor, Twin-linked, Skyfire, Assault 12 weapon. That seems to be what people want. I definitely don't want it to be easy to shoot stuff like that down from far away with Tyranids. I want a reason to move my Tyrannofex forward because he's a monster with decent combat ability, as well as packing fun, short-ranged guns. I don't want him to sit back pretending to be a Lemun Russ.

Venom "spam" and Wave Serpent "spam" aren't exactly dominating tournaments right now, but I'll bite. The way to reach them should be through rules that permit different types of speed and movement for Tyranids, not just giving them guns. Even then, every army should have a kryptonite. There should be something they have a difficult time dealing with. That leaves more in the hands of a creative general instead of, "Oh look...they gave us a herp-de-derp auto include unit that counters a weakness by pointing it in a direction."

A player should have to problem solve, not just take a unit that solves the problem for them. Tyranids work together to achieve a common goal. We aren't about taking squads of mini-armies that solve everything like Space Wolves or Grey Knights.

As a side note, I've also never had real problems getting into cc with a Wave Serpent, but that's because controlling the available move space on a table is always a part of my strategy. I force them into certain parts of the table and then get into combat so they can't shoot at me. Doesn't always work, but that's because there's an opponent playing too.

My two cents on the whole "crashing into flyers thing" should not be Gargoyles, but flying ripper swarms.

Just to look at starcraft, the mutalisks don't suicide themselves, but the really little ones (whose name escapes me) fly into aircraft and blow up.

I could also see sporemines, but actually having a reason to take flying rippers would be nice.

As for the long ranged firepower, something needs to happen to make the VC, HVC, and Tyrranofex viable, but I have always wondered on the mentality that took our primary anti-tank gun in 2nd ed (ah, that venom cannon was amazing) and turned it into a weapon that could not puncture power armor.

 Marrak wrote:
My two cents on the whole "crashing into flyers thing" should not be Gargoyles, but flying ripper swarms.

Just to look at starcraft, the mutalisks don't suicide themselves, but the really little ones (whose name escapes me) fly into aircraft and blow up.

I could also see sporemines, but actually having a reason to take flying rippers would be nice.

As for the long ranged firepower, something needs to happen to make the VC, HVC, and Tyrranofex viable, but I have always wondered on the mentality that took our primary anti-tank gun in 2nd ed (ah, that venom cannon was amazing) and turned it into a weapon that could not puncture power armor.

Flying Rippers crashing into flyers actually makes a lot of sense. You may be thinking of Broodlords, but those shoot small critters that attack the ground. Simply put a spin on that and watching little gribbles clog a few jet engines.

As I said in my previous post, the VC, HVC, and Tyrannofex should be viable, but not to turn a unit into a Lemun Russ. Also, a giant blob of venomous snot really shouldn't go through the hull of a Land Raider. Light armor and walkers? Sure. The Tyrannofex shot should be BS 4 and that would all but fix it. Even then - and as I said before - I want the Tyrannofex to be moving forward while firing, so it can take advantage of it's CC ability and short-ranged fun guns.

Nah he is thinking of Scourge

 Kroothawk wrote:

DufenDorgen wrote:
I disagree that nids need rang or need to be good at it. I think they need mobility and more models on the field.

Ever tried to fight 9 Necron flyers with 50 hormagaunts?

You ever try reaching across the board and smacking the measuring tape from your opponents hands? Then when he's looking down, uppercut him the jaw? Then while yelling "Jaws of the world wolf!", you take his models from the board one by one and snap then two with a hungry gaze, while Nick slinks back into the couch, too terrified to stop you or say anything. "Hungry like the wolf! JAWS OF THE WORLD WOLF", is all that escapes your lips. "Snap, crack!", is all you hear. Then you realize what your hearing isn't the Necron flyers, it's you and your sobbing on the floor with the Swarmlord in your hand, "jaws of...." and Nick decides not to call the cops because your having a bad day. Tyranid's DON'T NEED RANGE.

DufenDorgen wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:

DufenDorgen wrote:
I disagree that nids need rang or need to be good at it. I think they need mobility and more models on the field.

Ever tried to fight 9 Necron flyers with 50 hormagaunts?

You ever try reaching across the board and smacking the measuring tape from your opponents hands? Then when he's looking down, uppercut him the jaw? Then while yelling "Jaws of the world wolf!", you take his models from the board one by one and snap then two with a hungry gaze, while Nick slinks back into the couch, too terrified to stop you or say anything. "Hungry like the wolf! JAWS OF THE WORLD WOLF", is all that escapes your lips. "Snap, crack!", is all you hear. Then you realize what your hearing isn't the Necron flyers, it's you and your sobbing on the floor with the Swarmlord in your hand, "jaws of...." and Nick decides not to call the cops because your having a bad day. Tyranid's DON'T NEED RANGE.

If there were an emoticon for crickets...

 Marrak wrote:
My two cents on the whole "crashing into flyers thing" should not be Gargoyles, but flying ripper swarms.

Just to look at starcraft, the mutalisks don't suicide themselves, but the really little ones (whose name escapes me) fly into aircraft and blow up.

I could also see sporemines, but actually having a reason to take flying rippers would be nice.

As for the long ranged firepower, something needs to happen to make the VC, HVC, and Tyrranofex viable, but I have always wondered on the mentality that took our primary anti-tank gun in 2nd ed (ah, that venom cannon was amazing) and turned it into a weapon that could not puncture power armor.

Well, the Mutalisk fill a different roll than the Gargoyles, Mutalisk are high speed flyers, meanwhile Gargoyles are flying infantry.
Scourges are anti-capital ship flying bombs, and they aren't small.

I really see no problem if we have shooting. I don't understand this mentality of "Tyranids should be a close combat army". Where does this come from? Ever since 2nd edition we've had shooting, sure not 120" range shooting but still quite a bit of shooting.

I love playing my mycetic spores with dakkagaunts in them and landing in the face of Tau and shooting 180 shots into their army and watching them die and saying "sorry, but bugs outshoot fish". I love the fact that against Tau mycetic spores and dakka gives us a possibility of winning.

If Tyrannofexes were reduced by 100 points, then I'd play them. If their BS is upped to 4 and their shots increased to 4-6 then their price can remain the same. Biovores I hope remain unchanged because of their awesomeness, perhaps get even more range. 48" isn't very much for our cannons. I would love for them to have 72" range, but they're the only nid unit I feel should shoot so far because they are spore mine bombardiers and it's not about hitting a specific target, it's about getting spore mines into the enemy.

If Tyrannofexes are playable, then I'm happy. If hive guard with impaler cannons are playable, then I'm happy. If my harpy becomes playable, then I'm happy. All other things can change or remain I don't really care about them. I just want the units I never use or always use to have some sort of effect in the new codex as well.

Sky slashers kamikaze hitting flyers would be AWESOME.

Tyranids should be a case of “Anything you can do I can do better... eventually”, in the sense that each Hive Fleet has learnt from the previous one and newer and newer weapons are introduced with each new generation of Tyranids. The first ones were all choppy, but as they were beaten back by ranged firepower the Hive Mind worked out that returning fire would be a good idea. And then it started building bigger shooty things to mimic tanks, titans and so on.

Limited to no ranged attacks? In a Behemoth army maybe, but by the time Leviathan rocks around the Tyranids should know how to handle just about everyone (except the Necrons probably).

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Tyranids should be a case of “Anything you can do I can do better... eventually”, in the sense that each Hive Fleet has learnt from the previous one and newer and newer weapons are introduced with each new generation of Tyranids. The first ones were all choppy, but as they were beaten back by ranged firepower the Hive Mind worked out that returning fire would be a good idea. And then it started building bigger shooty things to mimic tanks, titans and so on.

Limited to no ranged attacks? In a Behemoth army maybe, but by the time Leviathan rocks around the Tyranids should know how to handle just about everyone (except the Necrons probably).

Not limited to no - just not lots of long range. In fluff, they should be whatever, because the fluff is whatever. Tyranids in play need to excel at CC or else they just become every other army. Some firepower, yes, but in game, they shouldn't have lots of long ranged, ultra-reliable, must-have firepower.

Good point about the Necrons. Really no biomass to consume.

 Flogger wrote:
I really see no problem if we have shooting. I don't understand this mentality of "Tyranids should be a close combat army". Where does this come from? Ever since 2nd edition we've had shooting, sure not 120" range shooting but still quite a bit of shooting.

Honestly, I think people watch Aliens or Starship Troopers or even a show about army ants and think that's what Tyranids are. You're right...they've always had guns and firepower has always played an important supporting role for the army.

brassangel, frankly I think you're beating a bit of a strawman here. I don't think anyone believes Tyranids should lay down long range firepower like IG or Tau. It has enough representation in the army...but IMO there needs to be some cleanup of Tyranid ranged weaponry to a) create more differentiation and b) make sure it's effective within its given niche.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Tyranids should be a case of “Anything you can do I can do better... eventually”, in the sense that each Hive Fleet has learnt from the previous one and newer and newer weapons are introduced with each new generation of Tyranids. The first ones were all choppy, but as they were beaten back by ranged firepower the Hive Mind worked out that returning fire would be a good idea. And then it started building bigger shooty things to mimic tanks, titans and so on.

Limited to no ranged attacks? In a Behemoth army maybe, but by the time Leviathan rocks around the Tyranids should know how to handle just about everyone (except the Necrons probably).

I think they should get better at doing what they do. You like shooting? Evolve stealth. You like fighting? Evolve better weapon skill. You got big guns? Evolve better toughness. Seriously going that route for at least SOME units would be a fine way of customizing a unit and have it do a job, paying for it of course. tyranids would be the only army to get away with something like that, I mean gak, there are over 20 different species of hormagaunts with just such traits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gorgon wrote:

 Flogger wrote:
I really see no problem if we have shooting. I don't understand this mentality of "Tyranids should be a close combat army". Where does this come from? Ever since 2nd edition we've had shooting, sure not 120" range shooting but still quite a bit of shooting.

Honestly, I think people watch Aliens or Starship Troopers or even a show about army ants and think that's what Tyranids are. You're right...they've always had guns and firepower has always played an important supporting role for the army.

brassangel, frankly I think you're beating a bit of a strawman here. I don't think anyone believes Tyranids should lay down long range firepower like IG or Tau. It has enough representation in the army...but IMO there needs to be some cleanup of Tyranid ranged weaponry to a) create more differentiation and b) make sure it's effective within its given niche.

Can we all agree that the -1 to VDT is just dumb for the venom cannons?

Amazingly dumb. It'd still be underwhelming without the -1.

Back when the 5th ed. codex was released, I wondered if Cruddace originally had VCs and HVCs as multiple blast weapons -- hearkening back to the 2nd ed. roots -- but changed them late in playtesting.

DufenDorgen wrote:
Can we all agree that the -1 to VDT is just dumb for the venom cannons?

It's fine if Tyranids had a way to pop vehicles at range. The Venom Canon is pretty much a high-powered monster-killer

The biggest problem with Tyranids weaponry is that it seems specialized at killing other Tyranids and not really anything else. Tyranids are great at killing big monstrous creatures, swarms of weaklings, and pretty much everything with a toughness score and mediocre armor.

Give Tyranids a way to actually combat the concept that every other race loves to hide in metal boxes and it'd be acceptable that the venom cannon is a thing that throws crystal poison meant to slay monsters. Maybe Rippers can get themselves jammed in the wheels/ducts of vehicles? Perhaps Pyrovores can cook the infantry inside transports? Perhaps Venomthropes can corrode armor within a radius? Something, anything, to show the Hive Mind has evolved enough to understand metal \m/ >.< \m/

Well, Tyranid monsters smash armor just fine. So does everything with Rending Claws. Even Brainleech Worms will shred light armor without a sweat. It's the method for getting those monsters and claws into combat reliably that's the problem right now.

No run + assault.
No movement after Deep Strike/Infiltrate/popping out of cover.

I suppose AV13 & 14 is tough, but it's that way for most armies (with S7 being the current sweet spot among shooty things anymore).

 brassangel wrote:
I suppose AV13 & 14 is tough, but it's that way for most armies (with S7 being the current sweet spot among shooty things anymore).

But there are several armies that have pretty good ways of popping armor, even high armor, at range. Either that or they're buddies with another army that will give them access to such a toy.

Tyranids are alone in their desire to touch metal with their claws or bloat up all their very limited Elites slots.