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2013/08/29 17:22:44
Subject: Re:Hundreds (allegedly) dead in Syrian chemical weapons attack
Warpig1815 wrote: @easysauce - The thing is that it's now transcended mere political differences and maneuvering. It's now descended into attacks on innocents. They may not be our innocents, but they are still somebodies innocents. Hence, unless a political resolvement can be made (Which Assad is plainly not going to back down to), then the only action that would stop the killing of innocent people would be to remove the perpetrators. I can understand why there is opposition to it - the USA and UK have not even pulled out Afghanistan before becoming embroiled in Syria and nobody wants another long war so soon, but if you ignore this war crime (For that's what it is) - how can any of us then complain when War crimes are visited on us? (Hypothetically)
It is a tough one, I'm in two minds about it, but ignoring Syria in 2011 has got us to this point, so what will happen if we ignore it further? An increased Russian influence should Assad win? Increased Al-Quaeda influence should the FSA win? Damned if we do, damned if we don't.
thing is, when someone slaughters innocents here, we take care of it on our own,
these people need to figure their own problems out,
if someone killed a few hundred americains/yanks/canucks, and then china sent in the troops to deal with it, you think thats approprate?
syria, for better or worse, is a sovereign nation, and is responsable for itself.
there have been way worse massacres, even recently, all over the world, why is this particular one is worth going into, while the other ones are not even in the news?
not to mention, that many forces enjoy the destabilizing effect of nato/us/un sending in the troops, so making intervention the de facto solution really takes control away from these orgs, and puts it into the hands of the terrorists.
why try to overthrough a govnment yourself when you can just get the UN/us to do it?
again, damned if we do, damned if we dont,
dont costs less tangably without any doubt, morally both are equally "bad" or "good"
2013/08/29 17:23:52
Subject: Re:Hundreds (allegedly) dead in Syrian chemical weapons attack
Warpig1815 wrote: I think what he's getting at Ouze, is that America is no simply the only ones entitled to those ideals. As far as I can see from the quote you provided he's merely saying that if America (By extension the West) is allowed those ideals, then why should we America and the West stand by whilst others are refused them - hence, in an effort to make the whole world a better place, it is the moral duty of the privileged ones, to help others gain those privileges. Of course, that's just my interpretation of his words - both of you feel free to correct me if that's not what he's getting at...
And I am sure you supported the missions in Iraq and Afghanistan, and fuly support an invasion of all countries in the Middle East with the exception of Israel and Turkey to make those rights happen. Right?
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2013/08/29 17:48:21
Subject: Re:Hundreds (allegedly) dead in Syrian chemical weapons attack
thing is, when someone slaughters innocents here, we take care of it on our own ...
if someone killed a few hundred americains/yanks/canucks, and then china sent in the troops to deal with it, you think thats approprate?
Actually, if history is anything to go by, they invoke Article 5 and expect NATO to come running. That's what happened, after all, after 9/11. The United States is the only country to ever invoke that clause, IIRC.
So... it's acceptable to demand every other NATO country drop everything and come running to the US aid, but the US can't be arsed to help anyone else with theirs?
And I am sure you supported the missions in Iraq and Afghanistan, and fuly support an invasion of all countries in the Middle East with the exception of Israel and Turkey to make those rights happen. Right?
Frazz, yes I supported Afghanistan. I also supported invading Iraq when it might have made a bigger difference. (But instead, they waited, and thousands more died because of that, which swelled the ranks of the people opposed to the US when we did eventually invade, because they felt the US betrayed them). As far as launching an invasion of the entire middle east: no, it's impractical. Syria can be successfully dealt with by the US and it's allies. The entire Middle East would be too large a front.
It's unfortunate that Israel and Saudi Arabia are the US allies. The simplest mechanism to create regional peace would be to inform them that if they do not cease this violence, Jerusalem and Mecca will be sent back to God in a pillar of Nuclear Fire if they did not, leaving them a sea of radioactive glass, and that no one could complete the Haj and live for another ten thousand years. (Yes, I know, also a war crime, but a credible threat of it might just work wonders).
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
2013/08/29 18:02:39
Subject: Re:Hundreds (allegedly) dead in Syrian chemical weapons attack
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
If Nuclear threat would create peace the Israelis could have forced it years ago.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
@Frazzled - If you could have actually been bothered to view my next point, rather than simply cherry-pick the points that suitably vindicate your own point of view, then you'd maybe have noticed that went on to say:
Warpig1815 wrote:I didn't say I agreed with him, just that that's what I thought he was getting at. And yes, those ideals haven't worked in Iraq or Afghanistan (At least on the face of it - how many of us can truly say what the normal, less extremist, Iraqi thinks of it?), but other countries do enjoy better lifestyles now that western ideals have influenced them...
However, if you really just want to put words in my mouth then go ahead. I was actually only 6 when the US and UK invaded Afghanistan, and I reckon you're gonna say 'Well, he's only 18 - what does he know..' but at least I'm taking the time to make my own thoughts on the matter. It's more than most 18 yr olds do in the UK. Why would you assume I supported the invasions?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/08/29 18:18:34
So you don't support invading all dictators etc., just this one.
ok...
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2013/08/29 18:26:06
Subject: Re:Hundreds (allegedly) dead in Syrian chemical weapons attack
Again, you're just putting words in my mouth - take some time out to read. I haven't stated in any of my posts I wish for Syria to be invaded. Quite the opposite, I'm in two minds about it. Go, pick out a point where I specifically express the personal opinion that Syria needs to be invaded - I haven't. Or maybe you're just deliberately trying to twist my words. I don't know - I care even less.
Frazzled wrote: So you don't support invading all dictators etc., just this one.
No,I'm in favor of deposing all tyrants. But I'm also aware of the practical limits of the forces involved. I say Syria is doable as the faction that the US is currently backing (as of the last time anyone checked) still had about 80,000 men under arms, fighting the Syrian armed forces 100k.
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
2013/08/29 19:20:45
Subject: Re:Hundreds (allegedly) dead in Syrian chemical weapons attack
In that case I apologise to Frazzled - I presumed, since it followed my own comment without an indication, that he was talking to me. So again - apologies Frazzled.
EDIT: @Baronlveagh - You've still got to remember though, that numbers don't account for the whole story. The Free Syrian Army is at best a militia, and whilst it may be holding it's own own (Although tenuously), Assad's forces at least have a modicum of training. Should the US (and everyone here seems to be forgetting that the UK inevitable perform in a vanguard role for operations like this ie. 1st Gulf, 2nd Gulf, Afghanistan) invade, then they would most likely shoulder the vast burden of combat operations - leading to increased losses or a more protracted involvement.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/29 19:30:13
We're not getting involved it seems. And to be frank, I'm not surprised even slightly. Cameron seriously missed the political step on this one. He recalled Parliament before the UN report was in, and asked for a blank cheque with regards to what military action he could take (under the phrase 'military intervention').
If he'd waited a few days for the UN report and specified exactly what he had planned, he would have gotten the support he needed from Parliament. He slipped up though. So we'll be sitting this one out.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/29 22:06:53
2013/08/29 22:17:30
Subject: Hundreds (allegedly) dead in Syrian chemical weapons attack
Ketara wrote: We're not getting involved it seems. And to be frank, I'm not surprised even slightly. Cameron seriously missed the political step on this one. He recalled Parliament before the UN report was in, and asked for a blank cheque with regards to what military action he could take (under the phrase 'military intervention').
If he'd waited a few days for the UN report and specified exactly what he had planned, he would have gotten the support he needed from Parliament. He slipped up though. So we'll be sitting this one out.
I would add, for now.
We currently have no clue how much farther south this crap will go.
2013/08/29 22:20:52
Subject: Re:Hundreds (allegedly) dead in Syrian chemical weapons attack
Yup, I'd just logged back in to mention that but you beat me to it . Mind you, it was a slim margin that the proposal was turned down by - 13 votes. I can't for the life of me figure out why Cameron was trying to jump the gun, but he has lost credibility now. However, so has labour - their proposed amendment was rejected too.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Its most likely the members were waiting to see what the UN team's result is.
Of course at this point its not really a question of if chemical weapons were used, its a question of who.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/29 22:23:38
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Ketara wrote: We're not getting involved it seems. And to be frank, I'm not surprised even slightly. Cameron seriously missed the political step on this one. He recalled Parliament before the UN report was in, and asked for a blank cheque with regards to what military action he could take (under the phrase 'military intervention').
If he'd waited a few days for the UN report and specified exactly what he had planned, he would have gotten the support he needed from Parliament. He slipped up though. So we'll be sitting this one out.
I would add, for now.
We currently have no clue how much farther south this crap will go.
There's no more Parliamentary time allocated for it. Unless they're stupid enough to randomly attack our airbase on Cyprus, it won't be discussed again, and ergo no military action will be taken or sanctioned. Cameron, when asked point blank by Miliband as to whether he would invoke the Royal Prerogative, said that he would not do so.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/08/29 22:36:55
2013/08/29 23:37:15
Subject: Hundreds (allegedly) dead in Syrian chemical weapons attack
If US bombs fall on Syria this weekend by the end of next month Articles of Impeachment will no doubt fall on Mr Obama's desk....
For those worried about no one having respect for his "red line" no one with any integrity has any respect for Mr Obama anyway...
Even the New York Times will call for his impeachment if he does this against the will of the Congress..and he knows it.
I really doubt there would be calls for impeachment. And certainly no legal reason for it. He would simply have 30 days to get a declaration of war from Congress or be forced to withdraw. A lot can be done in 30 days.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
A sunburn sinking a us warship might complicate the impeachment a wee bit. The Brits might be out, France and Murica! are still very much in the game. The idea that Syria and its allies are just going to sit there and let the states lob tomahawks at them is insane. Russia is sending two more warships to the mediterranean.
What's everybodfy doing for world war three this weekend?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/08/30 05:00:35
Do you play 30k? It'd be a lot cooler if you did.
2013/08/30 00:20:01
Subject: Hundreds (allegedly) dead in Syrian chemical weapons attack
Took almost 3 months for Clinton to bomb Slobo into submission. And those strikes killed alot of civvies and accelerated the ethnic killings in that region until the Yugoslav forces withdrew. I'd wager militarily and politically, Assad has more staying power then Slobodan Milosevic.
I used the Kosovo air campaign as that is the example I see pro-intervention folks use for what our airstrikes should be like.
The only way I'd support US strikes into Syria(fairly long article from Foreign policy)
Spoiler:
New fears for Syrian Jihadists
Amid the considerable media frenzy regarding apparently imminent U.S.-led punitive strikes on Syrian military forces and facilities, one interesting party to this country's conflict has been largely ignored: the jihadists. In recent days, a notable number of members of the online jihadist community -- some involved directly and others indirectly in the conflict in Syria -- have been somewhat fixated on a widespread fear that their leaders, personnel, and bases will also be the target of Tomahawk cruise missiles.
While no Western officials have suggested any such eventuality is being considered, the extent of the discussion is telling. In the last one-and-a-half years, jihadists have established a concrete foothold in the heart of the Middle East. Jabhat al-Nusra maintains an operational presence in 11 of Syria's 13 governorates and the roughly four-month old Islamic State in Iraq and al-Sham (ISIS) -- an extension of al Qaeda in Iraq's (AQI) front group, the Islamic State in Iraq (ISI) -- is catching up fast. This is not to mention at least 10 other decidedly jihadist groups operating on a more localized level across the country. Clearly, this remarkable expansion in jihadist territorial spread and influence is of long-term concern to the West, and it is for this reason that jihadists are so concerned.
In a note entitled "Important Instructions... Before the US initiates its Mission," distributed via social media on August 27, senior Fatah al-Islam leader Abdullah Shaker (Abu Bakr) claimed: "For each and every missile that strikes a [Syrian] missile site, there will be another that targets the mujahideen's positions," suggesting such strikes would aim to kill as many jihadist leaders as possible. Shaker went on to advise all jihadists to "change your positions, take shelter, and do not move in public," and underlined how previous experiences in Mali, Iraq, and Afghanistan had seen "the mujahideen destroyed in a very short time," as the necessary precautions were not undertaken. Shaker also advised against any attempts to deploy anti-aircraft weapons against U.S. "raids" as this would "practically be suicidal."
Similar notes of warning and advice have been distributed by known Jabhat al-Nusra and ISIS members and sympathizers, including an anonymous "brother familiar with the American media." He suggested on August 25 that in addition to U.S.-led strikes targeting Syrian "radar systems, air defence systems, the chemical weapons industry, and stocks of Scud missiles," a second set of strikes would target "the training camps of Jabhat al-Nusra and ISIS, the group's top tier leaders, and the sharia courts." He also suggested "all leaders change their locations... avoid meetings and avoid being present in any area in large numbers... [and] provoke a torrent of misinformation about our plans and locations to confuse the enemy."
While the location of Jabhat al-Nusra and ISIS leadership is kept highly secret -- with the actual identity of Jabhat al-Nusra's Abu Mohammed al-Golani still unknown in open sources -- the location of their facilities are well known. In fact, jihadist media material regularly announces and celebrates the opening of a new town headquarters, or a new sharia court, and so on and so forth. Videos and photographs are everywhere.
However, this is because jihadist groups have integrated themselves into the social mold, particularly in the northern governorates of Aleppo, northern Idlib, and Raqqa, and also in eastern Deir al-Zour. Jabhat al-Nusra and ISIS govern villages, towns, and even a governorate capital, Raqqa, and as such, operate very much in the open. While such militant infrastructure could theoretically be targeted, collateral damage would be inevitable, and in many cases, high. Moreover, the incredibly fluid nature of a countrywide conflict would provide militants with ample opportunity to slip away.
Despite the high levels of concern, there appears to have been no notable shift in jihadist operations in Syria. If anything, ISIS has become more operationally active in the last few days as a result of it having launched its Revenge Volcano operation in reaction to the alleged chemical weapons attack in Ghouta on August 21. The first day of this operation (August 26) saw ISIS launch a series of mortars and Grad rockets into central Damascus, including several apparently aimed at the Four Seasons Hotel, where the U.N. chemical inspectors are staying. Meanwhile, Jabhat al-Nusra, who has also launched its own retaliatory operations -- applying the Islamic term Qisas, or simply, an Eye for an Eye -- continues to be extensively involved in ongoing operations across the country, including the assassination of the governor of Hama governorate on August 25 and the seizure of the strategic town of Khanasser in Aleppo province the following day.
As such, if precautionary moves are being made, they are only affecting the most senior levels of leadership. However, this fits closely with a line taken by a number of prominent jihadists online, which has emphasized that in the event of strikes targeting their leaders or assets, it is critically important that a group sustains its normal level of operations: "any decline in our work will be seen as defeat," said one such comment.
Placing this situation in a less Syria-constrained context was a August 27 report in the Jordan Times in which the notorious Jordanian Salafist Mohammed Shalabi (Abu Sayyaf) claimed the only reason the West planned to carry out strikes in Syria was "to prevent the Syrian people from establishing an Islamic state." In the same report, an unnamed alleged ISIS official threatened that Jabhat al-Nusra and ISIS had already made the decision to carry out attacks "within Syria and abroad against the West should they target our fighters." While the latter threat is most likely bluster, it is notably one of only a small number of Syria-based jihadist threats to attack targets outside of Syria.
As is well known, jihadists worldwide view the West with immense hostility and assess its political motives, policy, and statements with complete skepticism. Throughout the Syrian conflict, a common jihadist assessment of the West's relative lack of a role in backing the armed opposition is that it, in fact, wants to prolong the conflict in order to eventually force a peace agreement whereby President Bashar al-Assad remains in power -- essentially an extension of Shalabi's argument, based on the foundational belief that the West is explicitly hostile to Islam.
Despite all of this highly speculative furor, one thing certainly does appear clear, that some level of U.S.-led, likely NATO ordered military strikes on Syrian military infrastructure is forthcoming. If, as many Syrians hope, such strikes serve to weaken the government's capacity to maintain its air advantage and to continue to prevent existentially threatening militant advances, the long-term issue of the extensive and consolidated presence of jihadist militancy in Syria will remain a key concern for policy makers in the West.
While the focus today remains on the current conflict in Syria and on how it will one day end, if Assad does eventually fall, a second battle will inevitably commence: one that will decide who, if anyone, takes the reins of power in Syria. Within such a situation, jihadists will very much be involved.
Charles Lister (@Charles_Lister) is a terrorism and insurgency analyst based in London. The views expressed here are written in a personal capacity and do not represent those of his employer.
"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
"Tell your gods we are coming for them, and that their realms will burn as ours did." -Thostos Bladestorm
2013/08/30 00:26:25
Subject: Re:Hundreds (allegedly) dead in Syrian chemical weapons attack
I really doubt there would be calls for impeachment. And certainly no legal reason for it. He would simply have 30 days to get a declaration of war from Congress or be forced to withdraw. A lot can be done in 30 days.
The War Powers Act doesn’t allow a president to use force absent authorization from Congress unless there is a “national emergency created by attack upon the United States, its territories or possessions, or its armed forces” . Period....Syria does not meet the requirement, 911 did.
The 60 then 30 days everyone talks about is how much time he has to bring all forces back without a declaration from Congress. If there is no threat to the US he can not launch in the first place without facing impeachment.
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2013/08/30 00:54:34
Subject: Re:Hundreds (allegedly) dead in Syrian chemical weapons attack
I can tell you're obviously working yourself up into a frenzy over this, and I sort of hate to be the one to say it because you're so excited, but there is absolutely no way whatsoever President. Obama is going to be impeached over strikes in Syria if/when he does that.
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2013/08/30 01:22:08
Subject: Re:Hundreds (allegedly) dead in Syrian chemical weapons attack
I really doubt there would be calls for impeachment. And certainly no legal reason for it. He would simply have 30 days to get a declaration of war from Congress or be forced to withdraw. A lot can be done in 30 days.
The War Powers Act doesn’t allow a president to use force absent authorization from Congress unless there is a “national emergency created by attack upon the United States, its territories or possessions, or its armed forces” . Period....Syria does not meet the requirement, 911 did.
The 60 then 30 days everyone talks about is how much time he has to bring all forces back without a declaration from Congress. If there is no threat to the US he can not launch in the first place without facing impeachment.
It could meet the requirement if you put the spin that Terrorists known to be hostile to the US are going to get their hands/may already have their hands on a WMD.
And either way, no impeachment would come because of the humanitarian crisis we would also be going in to halt.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/30 01:22:49
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
BaronIveagh wrote: It's unfortunate that Israel and Saudi Arabia are the US allies. The simplest mechanism to create regional peace would be to inform them that if they do not cease this violence, Jerusalem and Mecca will be sent back to God in a pillar of Nuclear Fire if they did not, leaving them a sea of radioactive glass, and that no one could complete the Haj and live for another ten thousand years. (Yes, I know, also a war crime, but a credible threat of it might just work wonders).
So Assad allegedly using chemical weapons on his own people is a war crime and we must intervene militarily because the US was founded on certain ideals and we must force those ideals on other sovereign nations, but you are in favour of committing war crimes by carrying out nuclear strikes on civilian areas to further your own political goals.........
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/30 01:24:05
2013/08/30 01:25:51
Subject: Re:Hundreds (allegedly) dead in Syrian chemical weapons attack
The bottom line is that every non-Muslim on the face of the earth is a target for Islamic Jihadists. Despotic Arab Nationalists keep Islamic Jihadists in check. We should be bombing the insurgents, not Syrian soldiers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/30 01:26:01
The UK won't be firing missiles into Syria. Cameron's still mouthing off, but no military action.
So I'm sure that means we can enjoy a nice, peaceful Syrian intervention without these weenies telling us what to do, right? There won't be any bs, "Do as I say, not as I do," out of Britain.
2013/08/30 03:30:29
Subject: Re:Hundreds (allegedly) dead in Syrian chemical weapons attack
Last time we did something morally right was Somalia. Then the mission change from humanitarian to a capture the "Warlords" thing.
I think the time to "do something" is past. Lobbing Tomahawks now is pointless. I'm sure Assad already thinking surface to surface missile batteries can beat AD systems when over saturated.
Now what would the US do if one of our ships get nailed in the exchange. Use the "Tonkin Incident" to justified boots on ground?
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2013/08/30 03:37:52
Subject: Re:Hundreds (allegedly) dead in Syrian chemical weapons attack
That's not enough justification to put "Boots on Ground" and commence combat operations. Obama, I hope, will stick with the Tomahawks and send those in and not fighter pilots. I highly doubt we get a live pilot back if he/she was shot down over Syria.
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha