Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Well, 20 DC could be effective (at least fun if nothing else).
Just expensive.

I've been using 6 DC on foot with 5 bolters and a single TH. (only 150p)
Not the most effective of BA, but I try to make sure that those 5 will be overlooked by stuffing something scarier on the field.
Tough, but they'll usually be worth the points.

'Nuff said about DC. Now BA:
Let's face it. BA is a difficult army to play with and I have pretty lousy W/L-ratio with them. The rare victories I've taken exist because I've used well the few rare elements that our lovealbe vampires have over other Marines:
1) Capability to have FnP in every squad.
2) Troops that move 12" per turn and have double melta/flamer
3) "Fast" tanks
4) AV14-vehicle as Dedicated Transport
5) New feature, but right now BA is the only army who can assault directly from Deep Strike. Knowing how expensive our Vanguard Vets are, I'm not sure how useful this will be but I'lm sure to give it a shot.
6) Few unique vehicles (Baal Pred, Librarian Dread, Fragnought).

If you really want to field a blood Angels army I suggest

A. Sucking it up and accept that your going against the grain
B. field lots of sniper scouts
C. Field lots of tanks
D. Run a single frag dread to force their anti vehicle armor guns the first turn. Make sure it kills a bunch of units with its 3 templates.

They don't have a good HQ, I suggest grabbing a Libby in term armor and let him run around punching tanks.

Good luck.

I love Fragnaughts
My favourite thing is to give them the melta-arm with a Magna-grapple.
Droppod them on T1 and unleash hell.

BA can do a hell of a land raider assault in 6th ed.

For 1330 BA can buy

Reclusiarch and 15 DC in a Land Raider Crusader
7 TH/SS termies and a termie priest in a crusader.

With metla spam out of the meta both units should be in CC on turn 2.

Against a gunline both units can afford to do a disorganized charge. While it may seem really painful for DC to lose 2A they still gain rerolls to hit and to would on a disorganized charge. That's enough to bully most 6th ed shooting units with a couple of assault marines in CC.

2nd troop is needed either scouts or assault marines.

Lots of different ways the list can go. It's against the grain, but on the other hand the meta would not be expecting it.

 schadenfreude wrote:
BA can do a hell of a land raider assault in 6th ed.

For 1330 BA can buy

Reclusiarch and 15 DC in a Land Raider Crusader
7 TH/SS termies and a termie priest in a crusader.

With metla spam out of the meta both units should be in CC on turn 2.

Against a gunline both units can afford to do a disorganized charge. While it may seem really painful for DC to lose 2A they still gain rerolls to hit and to would on a disorganized charge. That's enough to bully most 6th ed shooting units with a couple of assault marines in CC.

2nd troop is needed either scouts or assault marines.

Lots of different ways the list can go. It's against the grain, but on the other hand the meta would not be expecting it.

This is a really intriguing idea--thanks for suggesting it. The problem with most viable attack methods for BA right now (IMO) is:

1.) They are pretty "against the grain" as you said, and only MIGHT work

2.) I don't have the models to do most of them. So, it looks like I would be forced to spend even more cash. I am sure GW is laughing in their...whatever. Money piles. Sorry. Really bad metaphor. To do this, I would need to buy more DC, and another Land Raider. Just money I don't want to spend right now.

I have said this before, but I think the SPAM philosophy which is so prevalent and successful in this current meta is the real reason for this, and it just really discourages me. I know it's making GW money, selling 3 Vendettas or HellTurkeys, or Stormravens (or even Land Raiders) to everyone who wants to have a chance to win a game or two. I readily admit that I'm a romantic for a "fair fight" (no-one wants that in a real war, obviously. See Patton.) and a balanced, take-all-comers list, but I just don't think it works. You are really forced to "spam" your force to have any hope with BA right now, and as you said, perhaps try to surprise them too! I just think the Force Organization chart and current pricing for units (in the game, not the real world. In the real world, at least in my case, it's the opposite) really demand that you buy lots of vehicles, flyers, and so on. The troops (my favorite part of any army, really) are now relegated to necessary force organization slot fillers, or objective holders.

Which I just think is a shame.

Also, given the "Vampires of Space" identity of Blood Angels, how come our HQs are so lame? In Fantasy, real Vampire Lords are awesome, and super customizable. I wish there was more of this in our BA codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tsilber wrote:
Play to the strength of the army, if its viable. And no, not Assault troops with jump packs.

I think this would clock in around 1850

Captain, maybe a weapon

Troops.
Assualt Squad, no jump packs, Land raider
Assault Squad, no jump packs, land raider
Assault Squad, no jump packs, land raider

Fast.
2 baal predators, heavy bolter sponsons, twin assualt. These vehicles are fast, so move 6" and have a good time. Or move 12 and still fire one. Do they have power of machine spirit?

Heavy
2 Storm ravens, twin linked multi melta, twin assualt cannon, add the hurricane bolter side sponsons.
Not many list out there that can contest with 5 armor 13/14 vehicles, and/or 2 armor 12 flyers.

Like this. I don't own 3 Land Raiders, 2 Baal Predators, and 2 Storm Ravens. Trying to run this list (which I readily admit might be effective) would cost me like $350 in the real world. I'd rather buy a new army.

 pantheralegionnaire wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
BA can do a hell of a land raider assault in 6th ed.

For 1330 BA can buy

Reclusiarch and 15 DC in a Land Raider Crusader
7 TH/SS termies and a termie priest in a crusader.

With metla spam out of the meta both units should be in CC on turn 2.

Against a gunline both units can afford to do a disorganized charge. While it may seem really painful for DC to lose 2A they still gain rerolls to hit and to would on a disorganized charge. That's enough to bully most 6th ed shooting units with a couple of assault marines in CC.

2nd troop is needed either scouts or assault marines.

Lots of different ways the list can go. It's against the grain, but on the other hand the meta would not be expecting it.

This is a really intriguing idea--thanks for suggesting it. The problem with most viable attack methods for BA right now (IMO) is:

1.) They are pretty "against the grain" as you said, and only MIGHT work

2.) I don't have the models to do most of them. So, it looks like I would be forced to spend even more cash. I am sure GW is laughing in their...whatever. Money piles. Sorry. Really bad metaphor. To do this, I would need to buy more DC, and another Land Raider. Just money I don't want to spend right now.

I have said this before, but I think the SPAM philosophy which is so prevalent and successful in this current meta is the real reason for this, and it just really discourages me. I know it's making GW money, selling 3 Vendettas or HellTurkeys, or Stormravens (or even Land Raiders) to everyone who wants to have a chance to win a game or two. I readily admit that I'm a romantic for a "fair fight" (no-one wants that in a real war, obviously. See Patton.) and a balanced, take-all-comers list, but I just don't think it works. You are really forced to "spam" your force to have any hope with BA right now, and as you said, perhaps try to surprise them too! I just think the Force Organization chart and current pricing for units (in the game, not the real world. In the real world, at least in my case, it's the opposite) really demand that you buy lots of vehicles, flyers, and so on. The troops (my favorite part of any army, really) are now relegated to necessary force organization slot fillers, or objective holders.

Which I just think is a shame.

Also, given the "Vampires of Space" identity of Blood Angels, how come our HQs are so lame? In Fantasy, real Vampire Lords are awesome, and super customizable. I wish there was more of this in our BA codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tsilber wrote:
Play to the strength of the army, if its viable. And no, not Assault troops with jump packs.

I think this would clock in around 1850

Captain, maybe a weapon

Troops.
Assualt Squad, no jump packs, Land raider
Assault Squad, no jump packs, land raider
Assault Squad, no jump packs, land raider

Fast.
2 baal predators, heavy bolter sponsons, twin assualt. These vehicles are fast, so move 6" and have a good time. Or move 12 and still fire one. Do they have power of machine spirit?

Heavy
2 Storm ravens, twin linked multi melta, twin assualt cannon, add the hurricane bolter side sponsons.
Not many list out there that can contest with 5 armor 13/14 vehicles, and/or 2 armor 12 flyers.

Like this. I don't own 3 Land Raiders, 2 Baal Predators, and 2 Storm Ravens. Trying to run this list (which I readily admit might be effective) would cost me like $350 in the real world. I'd rather buy a new army.

Btw, I think you should just replace that captain with a BA libby. The BA captains are probably the worst space marine HQ option of any space marine book. At least the Libby will give all your land raiders 5+ cover saves.

Been toying with a BA drop list that I think is shaping up to be fairly solid. I have it at 1500 and 1850 points

1500 Scarlet Rain

1850 Scarlet Rain

I would suggest either rolling Biomancy/Divination or taking a pick between The Blood Lance/Smite and Sanguine Sword(Libby)/Might of Heroes(Furioso). Because you can use those last two powers during either players assault phase and Warp Charges regen at the start of each players turn, being mastery level 1 doesn't suck so much. Drop the Furiosos and Corbulo (1850 list) on turn 1 and dunk the Land Raider wherever you need it next to a locator beacon pod. If someone(Tau) wants to intercept you, they either have to face 13 front armor or 3+/5+FNP. There is indeed no Anti-air save for potshots from Blood Lance/ Lascannons. Not that it can't happen. Prescience on the librarian cast on the Land Raider could give you a good shot. Otherwise by turn two you should be in close combat with something and the rest of your army on the way.

I run a list with 3 LR redeemers and one regular land raider, a Libby, and 3 SR.

First thing is that the list has a sort of shock and awe factor to opponents (although it is much diminished of an effect on more experienced players) which I've found if you can get people scared of your list before you deploy you can have them on the back foot the whole game.

The strategy basically involves picking the third of the table across from you that absolutely has to die fast, like the side with the riptide for example, and deploying all 4 LR so that they have 5+ cover from the libby's LR. then you just push hard straight at them, and if your opponent isn't scared of 4 LR rushing 2-3 units i don't know what hes smoking.

Then as your Stormravens come in you pick vulnerable targets that threaten your land raiders from a distance.

Then once anything that can damage a LR is dead you just proceed to steamroll. Most of the time my troops never hit the table, people laugh at me ans ask why i even bring them sometimes

Granted it doesn't always work out that well, but I've had fairly good success with it. What give me trouble is when your friend knows you are going to run it and brings a drop pod of longfangs with multimeltas joined by Logan Grimnar... that's just mean to this list....

That list would need at least 2.5k points or something

Kangodo wrote:
That list would need at least 2.5k points or something

I can actually fit it into 2000points. if you drop a LR it can get down to 1750-1850 points.

I think it really comes down to BA being outdated, mostly in terms of point cost but in other ways too. DC are a good example. As a never-scoring troop choice they're something of an anomaly. In the past this wasn't as much of an issue. However in 6th, that's the only reason anyone ever takes troops. True, they're still a cool (if expense) unit, but it makes it so BA only really have one largely recognized viable scoring unit (ASM). I suppose scouts can be used effectively, but I don't think I've ever ran a tactical squad in a BA army.

I'm sure they're other examples I could think of, but this makes my point pretty well. And that the general tide has swung away from the only thing Blood Angels are meant to do, assault...

Laertes' Folly wrote:
I think it really comes down to BA being outdated, mostly in terms of point cost but in other ways too. DC are a good example. As a never-scoring troop choice they're something of an anomaly. In the past this wasn't as much of an issue. However in 6th, that's the only reason anyone ever takes troops. True, they're still a cool (if expense) unit, but it makes it so BA only really have one largely recognized viable scoring unit (ASM). I suppose scouts can be used effectively, but I don't think I've ever ran a tactical squad in a BA army.

I'm sure they're other examples I could think of, but this makes my point pretty well. And that the general tide has swung away from the only thing Blood Angels are meant to do, assault...

I don't think Death Company being a non-scoring troops choice is an issue. Between scouts, tacs, and ASM we still have as many scoring options as any other marine book. If you look at DC as an elite choice that doesn't take up an elite slot, however, you see the advantage. We can take 5 ASM/tac squads, giving us 5-10 scoring units (depending on combat squadding, of course) and then take 4 elites choices (sterns, priests, furioso, and DC). The problem with DC, then, is that it is very difficult to get them to charge something due to delivery/cost issues.

Being Troops, though, is certainly a bonus.

Anyway, the real problem with BAs is that everything is too expensive. We all know it. GW knows it. Our prices will go down in a year, they'll probably chance the Red Thirst rules in a way that makes them better, they'll fiddle around with our character/HQ options to make them not suck, and that'll be that. Until then, I'm afraid we're just fighting the ocean by trying to make BAs "competitive" in this world.

I don't mind DC being non scoring, I use them as allies to my IG and they make an effective CC deterrent when my storm raven comes on around turn 2 or 3, I usually take a few with a DC dread aswell an drop them off on they unit closest to my line that threatens an assault

 tomjoad wrote:

Laertes' Folly wrote:
I think it really comes down to BA being outdated, mostly in terms of point cost but in other ways too. DC are a good example. As a never-scoring troop choice they're something of an anomaly. In the past this wasn't as much of an issue. However in 6th, that's the only reason anyone ever takes troops. True, they're still a cool (if expense) unit, but it makes it so BA only really have one largely recognized viable scoring unit (ASM). I suppose scouts can be used effectively, but I don't think I've ever ran a tactical squad in a BA army.

I'm sure they're other examples I could think of, but this makes my point pretty well. And that the general tide has swung away from the only thing Blood Angels are meant to do, assault...

I don't think Death Company being a non-scoring troops choice is an issue. Between scouts, tacs, and ASM we still have as many scoring options as any other marine book. If you look at DC as an elite choice that doesn't take up an elite slot, however, you see the advantage. We can take 5 ASM/tac squads, giving us 5-10 scoring units (depending on combat squadding, of course) and then take 4 elites choices (sterns, priests, furioso, and DC). The problem with DC, then, is that it is very difficult to get them to charge something due to delivery/cost issues.

Being Troops, though, is certainly a bonus.

Anyway, the real problem with BAs is that everything is too expensive. We all know it. GW knows it. Our prices will go down in a year, they'll probably chance the Red Thirst rules in a way that makes them better, they'll fiddle around with our character/HQ options to make them not suck, and that'll be that. Until then, I'm afraid we're just fighting the ocean by trying to make BAs "competitive" in this world.

GW may know it, but their minions at the GW stores have to pretend there's nothing wrong. Infuriating.

I'm aware that there are GW stores...but the experience of being in one of them is so singularly unpleasant, I'm not sure how anybody spends any time in one of them. Maybe I'm just spoiled for choice with so many independent stores around the Bay Area? I haven't been to a GW store since they shut down the one good one around here and their best employees started working down the street from my work at an independent. It's glorious.

I stopped by their booth at Origins actually to express my displeasure with the BA. According to many FLGS owners, many, many 40K players have multiple armies, and so that's what GW expects as the solution to where the BA presently are.

Fortunately, there's "counts as" and so that's what I'll do.

Martel, at what level do you actually play?
Do you want to be competitive on tournaments or just 'beer and pretzels'-games?

Mainly at the FLGS, but many people are running tourney lists in preparation or just from the internets to try to win.

I really am looking forward to "counts as" because I think the Stormraven will be much more useful for non-BA lists, ironically enough.

I'm also thinking of use the BA as "counts as" marines.

I'm not sure what to do at this point... build models and wait for the BA Codex...

Martel732 wrote:
Mainly at the FLGS, but many people are running tourney lists in preparation or just from the internets to try to win.

I really am looking forward to "counts as" because I think the Stormraven will be much more useful for non-BA lists, ironically enough.

I hear all of you, but what's frustrating about it is that we are now being forced to use them as proxies, or to try to simulate what works best in OTHER chapters (using BA bikers, for example) instead of having rules that allow us to field our force and have it be viable and still line up with the fluff.

I think most of GW's decisions must be economic. If a given army is selling well, and then rules changes mean that the army doesn't work well (either it's inferior or is OP), then they get a new Codex pretty quickly. In Fantasy, High Elves, Ogres, Vampires and Warriors of Chaos (and there could be more) have ALL gotten TWO new books while other armies (Wood Elves, Bretonnia & Dwarfs, for example) have not gotten even one re-write. Hopefully people are buying a lot of BA models, and the economic viability of that will work with us.

I'm a fairly new returnee to the hobby, only played a couple of beginner games of 6th. I only play friendly games, and only intend to play friendly games, so I'm happy to stick with the BA codex. I really like my home brew successor chapter so I don't really want to do "counts as".

But, I was having a look through the new marine codex last night and, while I knew points values were coming down, I really didn't realise quite how big some of the discrepancies are.

I've built a 1500pt army of 30 JP assault marines, 2 JP priests and Landspeeders. (My plan is now to add drop pod fragnoughts and tacticals for options.) My HQ is an Epistolary Librarian with jump pack, 175pts. The same HQ in the marine codex is 100pts I think. Jump packs are 10 points cheaper. Tactical squads are 30 points cheaper. There are obviously more. In some 1500 point games we must be playing with about a 200pt handicap.

Also, how much do you want those Raven Guard chapter tactics?

So, yeh, while I say I'm happy to keep playing the BA codex, it seems like every game against a new codex is going to be something of an uphill struggle. For me now, the new book can't come quick enough.

The Ravenguard tactics, combined with the overall point reduction, is really worth the loss of the priests and divination in my opinion.
Their HQ's are also a dozen times better than our own and with FW we can still have our troop-ASM.

The only thing I miss is Furioso-dreads (with Fragcannons) and I do miss the (bad) characters.

Martel732 wrote:
Mainly at the FLGS, but many people are running tourney lists in preparation or just from the internets to try to win.

I really am looking forward to "counts as" because I think the Stormraven will be much more useful for non-BA lists, ironically enough.

Yeah, there is a slightly competitive atmosphere down at my GW store. We run campaigns though which doesn't help really. Its not bad, but it does have a slight competitive feel to it. At the moment I am using my Tau. I love my Blood Angels and want to get another game with them at some point but I am also leading the current campaign, so I don't want to let off from that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 pantheralegionnaire wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Mainly at the FLGS, but many people are running tourney lists in preparation or just from the internets to try to win.

I really am looking forward to "counts as" because I think the Stormraven will be much more useful for non-BA lists, ironically enough.

I hear all of you, but what's frustrating about it is that we are now being forced to use them as proxies, or to try to simulate what works best in OTHER chapters (using BA bikers, for example) instead of having rules that allow us to field our force and have it be viable and still line up with the fluff.

I think most of GW's decisions must be economic. If a given army is selling well, and then rules changes mean that the army doesn't work well (either it's inferior or is OP), then they get a new Codex pretty quickly. In Fantasy, High Elves, Ogres, Vampires and Warriors of Chaos (and there could be more) have ALL gotten TWO new books while other armies (Wood Elves, Bretonnia & Dwarfs, for example) have not gotten even one re-write. Hopefully people are buying a lot of BA models, and the economic viability of that will work with us.

I have Vampire Counts army for Fantasy. When the rules changed in the last edition Magic Vampire Lords became extremely sick, because you rolled your two dice for winds of magic and then got all the bonuses on top of that for Master of the Black Arts, etc. In essence thats why I believe Vampire Counts were changed relatively quickly compared to other army books in the current edition.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 alanmckenzie wrote:
I'm a fairly new returnee to the hobby, only played a couple of beginner games of 6th. I only play friendly games, and only intend to play friendly games, so I'm happy to stick with the BA codex. I really like my home brew successor chapter so I don't really want to do "counts as".

But, I was having a look through the new marine codex last night and, while I knew points values were coming down, I really didn't realise quite how big some of the discrepancies are.

I've built a 1500pt army of 30 JP assault marines, 2 JP priests and Landspeeders. (My plan is now to add drop pod fragnoughts and tacticals for options.) My HQ is an Epistolary Librarian with jump pack, 175pts. The same HQ in the marine codex is 100pts I think. Jump packs are 10 points cheaper. Tactical squads are 30 points cheaper. There are obviously more. In some 1500 point games we must be playing with about a 200pt handicap.

Also, how much do you want those Raven Guard chapter tactics?

So, yeh, while I say I'm happy to keep playing the BA codex, it seems like every game against a new codex is going to be something of an uphill struggle. For me now, the new book can't come quick enough.

I wrote a list using units that are in both the BA & SM codices. You can get the same army, pretty much for over 200pts cheaper. The specific list I made up had a difference of 242pts. I stopped building it when I got to 2005pts for Blood Angels and then realised how big the difference was.

That's a huge handicap. Couple that with the nerfs our army took to assault and it compounds the issue. All that said I am going to have fun and play my BA tonight after a game or two of Xwing. I'll be using a 2k list:

Mephiston

5 assault marines, 2 hand flamers, 1 flamer
5 assault marines, 2 hand flamers, 1 flamer
5 assault marines, plasma gun, razorback (twin LC)
5 assault marines, plasma gun, razorback (twin LC)
7 death co, 1 fist, Landraider
Furioso, fragcannon, heavy flamer, drop pod
Dread, multimelta, heavy flamer, drop pod
Predator, lascannon sponsons
Storm raven, twin lascannons, multimelta

I don't expect much, but I am attempting to do a threat overload list.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
That's a huge handicap. Couple that with the nerfs our army took to assault and it compounds the issue. All that said I am going to have fun and play my BA tonight after a game or two of Xwing. I'll be using a 2k list:

Mephiston

5 assault marines, 2 hand flamers, 1 flamer
5 assault marines, 2 hand flamers, 1 flamer
5 assault marines, plasma gun, razorback (twin LC)
5 assault marines, plasma gun, razorback (twin LC)
7 death co, 1 fist, Landraider
Furioso, fragcannon, heavy flamer, drop pod
Dread, multimelta, heavy flamer, drop pod
Predator, lascannon sponsons
Storm raven, twin lascannons, multimelta

I don't expect much, but I am attempting to do a threat overload list.

Pray you don't roll for kill points. You have 10 units there.

I also think you could do with one additional pod, so you're sure to get two dreads on T1

Hey all, go check out my army list ideas over in the army list thread. I haven't gotten much feedback. Might as well have the BA gang look at it.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/553352.page

I see a little influence from Kenny's Nova Open list there. Fan of list 2.

I think the list works much better as a hybrid with the new codex. His list really benefits from the cheaper allies. His original list makes me very nervous, especially in the land where Vendettas never go away. (My FLGS) And Space wolf drops are very popular.

Before people poo poo the IG air cav, keep in mind that at the Vendetta's pricepoint, Tau broadsides need to shoot down two of the them to earn points back. That's assuming they survive TL LC death from the sky.