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peoples getting confused :

TM - Trademark has nothing to do with Intellectual property.

I can TM "Space Marine chocolate bar", and GW won't stop me.

Intellectual property, in most of the cases, last for 50 years, and just because GZ TM-ed HeroQuest... in Spain... it does not mean that they can make a copy of HeroQuest board game, as its still under IP (for next 27 years).

 Splod wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

I wonder if GW really does feel they own "black orcs" as that is a gw specific idea.

After it being proved GW doesn't have the IP rights to the term 'Space Marine,' I promise you that idea won't stand up to a light breeze.

Not to mention the Tolkein estate having something to say on the topic of Black Orcs.

The "Space Marine" debacle... I can still see it being GW... Not much effort for them to have a letter sent to Kickstarter.

Plus, supposedly from the Spanish interviews with Gamezone, they had already been talking with Hasbro about their project.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh well, hopefully this gives GZ a chance to get the project under control an organized.

god.ra wrote:
peoples getting confused :

TM - Trademark has nothing to do with Intellectual property.

I can TM "Space Marine chocolate bar", and GW won't stop me.

Intellectual property, in most of the cases, last for 50 years, and just because GZ TM-ed HeroQuest... in Spain... it does not mean that they can make a copy of HeroQuest board game, as its still under IP (for next 27 years).

Wrong. Trademark is an aspect of intellectual property. So is copyright. So is patents. There's a bunch of other minor areas (plant breeders rights and things), but all are part of 'intellectual property'. Now, intellectual property is kind of a large abstract thing, and each of those areas is very different.

Guess I got an answer, which was quick. Was looking forward to this. Although not the best managed ks either. Hope it gets sorted one way or the other. Not the end of the world though, guess I'll get more gaming boards from the Games & Gears ks tomorrow, pretty well run ks there.

decker_cky wrote:

god.ra wrote:
peoples getting confused :

TM - Trademark has nothing to do with Intellectual property.

I can TM "Space Marine chocolate bar", and GW won't stop me.

Intellectual property, in most of the cases, last for 50 years, and just because GZ TM-ed HeroQuest... in Spain... it does not mean that they can make a copy of HeroQuest board game, as its still under IP (for next 27 years).

Wrong. Trademark is an aspect of intellectual property. So is copyright. So is patents. There's a bunch of other minor areas (plant breeders rights and things), but all are part of 'intellectual property'. Now, intellectual property is kind of a large abstract thing, and each of those areas is very different.

http://www.ipo.gov.uk/types.htm

As others have said - much better this happens now and not in 6 months. It will probably push this campaign into the New Year (if it goes on) which is much smarter for all concerned than having it end on/right after Christmas Day...

god.ra wrote:

decker_cky wrote:

god.ra wrote:
peoples getting confused :

TM - Trademark has nothing to do with Intellectual property.

I can TM "Space Marine chocolate bar", and GW won't stop me.

Intellectual property, in most of the cases, last for 50 years, and just because GZ TM-ed HeroQuest... in Spain... it does not mean that they can make a copy of HeroQuest board game, as its still under IP (for next 27 years).

Wrong. Trademark is an aspect of intellectual property. So is copyright. So is patents. There's a bunch of other minor areas (plant breeders rights and things), but all are part of 'intellectual property'. Now, intellectual property is kind of a large abstract thing, and each of those areas is very different.

Wrong, to back up what I just said, check this link and read it about TM or C or Intellectual property.

http://www.ipo.gov.uk/types.htm

You mean the link says Trademarks, Copyrights, Patents, and Designs are all types of Intellectual Property?
Meaning your initial post was wrong ?

Aye, would rather it gets sorted now. Its either dead or gone, or solid as a rock after a short delay.

That's much better in my mind than a overhanging worry through out the entire production period. At least we'll all know where stand either way.

I agree. If this is resolved, then I will be really happy to pledge for Hero Quest. Serious nostalgia for that game!

It's a bit baffling that a company like Hasbro would leave "money on the table" like this with a game.

Looks like it wasn't GW, via Fancueva:

Official statement:

Please bear with us. Gamezone and Moon Design are in a meeting negotiating a settlement for both parts at this time.

Moon Design believes that their interests in the HEROQUEST brand within the USA will be infringed upon. Although we are not distributing or selling our product in US territory. As a precaution Moon Design presented a C/D on the 27th of Nov. Our talks are coming to a point where the negotiation will benefit all those involved, which finally would let us offer our product in stores in the USA sometime next year.
The Moon Design C/D was suspended, but on the table, as another element in the negotiation. Here at Gamezone it is our hopeful understand that its activation is possibly by error as both parties where coming to an agreement. Said agreement would finally end beneficially for Fans in the USA by opening the physical distribution to stores in that country. This brief pause of activity is as harmful to the interests of Moon Design as it is to Gamezone Miniatures.

We are as surprised as the Heroquest community, we didn’t expect that on Thanksgiving, of all days, to be wrapped up in this mess, that is so disagreeable for everyone involved. On a day such as this it is extremely complicated to get in touch with Moon Design. We are working diligently on a solution so we can continue with the project from where it is at the moment and reinforce it for the future.

Thank you. Dionisio

http://www.fancueva.com/ludico/comunicado-oficial-de-gamezone-sobre-el-bloqueo-de-heroquest-25-aniversario/

Interesting indeed!

Hopefully it will be settled to everyone's benefit, and there won't be anyone else trying similar things!

Turns out Moon Designs got the US rights from Greg Stafford last August

http://www.glorantha.com/moon-design-acquires-glorantha-rights/

Yup, Greg Stafford owns Moon Designs. So a somewhat out of left field. Interestingly on the US Copyright site, it lists them as having it since 1980 though. Might be whoever holds the current copyright of something is listed as having it since the original filing.

*edit* Still, you have to ask, if they claim they wanted to distribute this in the US now, why didn't they contact Stafford before starting?

How many people honestly associate Hero Quest with Glorantha though?

To me HQ has always been the board game... always.

Now that I think about it, this was an issue back in the day as well, wasn't it?

Maybe they'll drag it out, cancel the kickstarter, start up in the new year (so we all have fresh paychecks to waste), and get those stretch goals set to more reasonable levels!

Or work something out with distributing it worldwide.

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:


Maybe they'll drag it out, cancel the kickstarter, start up in the new year (so we all have fresh paychecks to waste), and get those stretch goals set to more reasonable levels!

That sounds like a good plan to me!

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:

Or work something out with distributing it worldwide.

Or, you know, that too!

If they can work out US distribution rights, it may actually be for the best for all parties involved. They may even have the financial justification to reproduce and produce expansions.

If I owned a us trademark and saw half a million dollars on a table, it would be a strong motivator to figure out how to get some of that. Especially since a majority of the game design is done for you and the audience is captive. If they could release a US version for half the cost, they will be set. That is why you buy old IP.

So I am interested to see how this works out.

Well from GameZone's comments, it sounds like they don't have any problems ponying up licensing costs to Hasbro.

Hell, it would be a win/ win for everyone if they could work something out with Hasbro to get this game out there.

Maybe a similar situation with what Prodoss is doing with AvP: plastic version in shops, super deluxe treatment via Kickstarter?

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
How many people honestly associate Hero Quest with Glorantha though?

You only need one person and you only get one guess to answer who it is.

As for IP, iirc, You (sometimes) have to enforce your IP if you become aware of it. Otherwise, it can become part of public domain. Just ask those Marvel folks when Cerebrus was about to issue its third Wolverine parody cover.

Also, iirc, a Cease and Desist letter doesn't really mean anything other than a legal requirement. I think GW is rather infamous for issuing C&D's they couldn't enforce?

Anyway, hope this works out for Moonwhatever and GameZone. Moon's Glorantha RPG game world doesn't have a line of mini's, nor, afaik, is strongly affiliated with a particular game system. *I* would sure like to see some Glorantha duck mini's...

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
How many people honestly associate Hero Quest with Glorantha though?

To me HQ has always been the board game... always.
.

Those who are familiar with the game family. Hero Questing has been a core concept of Glorantha based RPG:s & one of their RPG (from 2009) is called "Hero Quest".

Cease and desist order doesn't really mean anything (it's basically "stop, or we'll do something"), but I don't think Glorantha/Moon Design has a legitimate claim here (the have no trademark in Spain, and no copyright in any part of the game). I think they're just using it to forcefully start a dialogue with Gamezone when they weren't really considered a player in all this (GW isn't, and Hasbro wasn't being talked to).

I'm sure the discussion between them is about getting a license to distribute Heroquest in the US, or even to purchase the trademark in the US rather than actually substantively discussing IP issues.

I didn't close the KS screen on my tablet and I can still see the total changing in real time it's dropped $38k and 156 backers since the suspension and is now at $504k

It's still at number one on the Kicktraq Top ten...

Can someone explain how Moon Designs can issue a C&D about Trademark infringement on this one? They were never involved with the original game and only own the trademark in the US. The game is being designed, manufactured, etc in Spain where Gamezone has the trademark. The KS payments aren't going through the US, so other than KS being a US company, how does Moon Design have any sort of jurisdictional infringement here? In other words, if this had gone through IndieGoGo instead, would we have seen a C&D from them? I don't see how. Regardless, I hope this turns into a case where Moon Designs makes easy distribution a reality. It's not really beneficially to any party if this KS just evaporates.

It's not an official C&D. The trademark owner sent a message to Kickstarter contesting the ownership of the IP. Kickstarter (the site/company) froze the campaign and are investigating.

ah, thanks. That makes more sense.

As I said, I'm waiting a week on this one.

If it craps the bed, I head over to feebey and start digging for the old school snacks.


Not a real fan of how this is playing out though.

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
How many people honestly associate Hero Quest with Glorantha though?

To me HQ has always been the board game... always.

Now that I think about it, this was an issue back in the day as well, wasn't it?

Maybe they'll drag it out, cancel the kickstarter, start up in the new year (so we all have fresh paychecks to waste), and get those stretch goals set to more reasonable levels!

Or work something out with distributing it worldwide.

On some other boards, some old school RPG'ers are mentioning that HeroQuest was originally announced as an expansion to the RuneQuest RPG back in 1978. RuneQuest was put out by Chaosium, which was run by Greg Stafford at the time. So this wasn't some unrelated IP grab by Stafford when it came up.

Taking salt with another comment I saw over at TGN that Stafford had actually talked about doing a miniature game for HeroQuest when he got the license back in 2003.

decker_cky wrote:
Cease and desist order doesn't really mean anything (it's basically "stop, or we'll do something"), but I don't think Glorantha/Moon Design has a legitimate claim here (the have no trademark in Spain, and no copyright in any part of the game). I think they're just using it to forcefully start a dialogue with Gamezone when they weren't really considered a player in all this (GW isn't, and Hasbro wasn't being talked to).

I'm sure the discussion between them is about getting a license to distribute Heroquest in the US, or even to purchase the trademark in the US rather than actually substantively discussing IP issues.

They've seen how big the pie was going to be. No doubt they would want a slice of that pie, rather than to throw the pie into the trash bin. At least, we must hope!

They said in the FAQ after launch they'd go to Hasbro and try to cut them in on worldwide distribution rights. (I think it was the FAQ??!)

Hopefully it's a case of.

Sod off we'll do that now with you without taking any of the risk.