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2013/09/22 11:56:45
Subject: Re:Chapter Master Brawl Free for All who do you think would win???
bigboss1o1 wrote: First of all I ran the two of them face to face already with real dice not some digital crap Moloc won 4/6 and second of all READ FIRST POST!
Well good for you. My friend and I did the same and Dante won 2 games to 1.
bigboss1o1 wrote: First of all I ran the two of them face to face already with real dice not some digital crap Moloc won 4/6 and second of all READ FIRST POST!
And we're done. Thanks for playing folks!
He probably forgot that Dante nerfs him and was using his full stats for Moloc.
Sasa0mg wrote: I think Moloc's armor is hinged quite well he's definitely a lot more menueverable judging by his model and art work then any other terminator armor I've seen I don't see why he wouldn't be able to move himself as he needed to be. And no I was meaning that the spear thrust would just ultimately be lower if need be but I think his armor allows for just as good bodily rotations and movements then regular space marine armor. As again some of the most formidable (highest WS characters) are featured in power armor so it can't be cumbersome to the point of causing any real degree of hindrance as far as bodily movements goes.
Also the point of power armor is to strengthen the bodies movements the fact the spear is a relic blade combined with the terminator armor and the fact that if your saying dante is descending upon him there would be enough accumulative force in place to see the thrust hit home with considerable enough force to kill.
And if your problem is with the him not being able to react in terminator armor either way I have to remind you that Dante isn't a dark eldar witch at this point, he's not simply going to ninja himself around fast enough to overwhelm him, nor is that jump pack silent enough to disguise what he's doing at any point either so he would know full well what was going on.
It wouldnt be more maneuverable than Power armor, although he would be more maneuverable than any TDA out there. Still wont be able to draw back. Also, as its a brawl youd know your opponent is there, im saying if he deflects an axe strike (and the shield holds up) he would be slower to push Dante off and make a good thrust than dante would be to get out of attack range. Lets also remember axes are very good at destroying shields, so theres that. I agree if dante were diving straight down it would be laughably easy for moloc to kebab him, but in a brawl youre face to face, and Dante isnt stupid enough do dive headfirst at an opponent. Im also not saying he wont react, im saying he'd be slower than dante. Dante is no witch but fluff wise against an enemy in more cumbersome armor (be honest, termie armor no matter how well made would be more cumbersome than PA) he would be slightly faster. Enough to give him an edge.
Im sorry I do not care what the fluff says or how strong he is, he is not doing any kind of dancing with that Volkswagon beetle on his back i see him being just as if not more cumbersome then termie armor and the fact that im pretty sure his visual left and right limits are greatly hindered with that rediculous ornate helmet I mean Im just saying.
This response right here says it all. He doesn't care about the table top results and he doesn't care about what the fluff says. He has no basis now for any of his arguments.
Lobukia wrote: I know its not the thrust of the argument... but here's Logan's Mathhammer
If he charges, he does 1.8 wounds on the charge, and Moloc gets his .851. Round 2 its 1.3 more for Logan... so end of two rounds its Moloc having taken 3.1 and Logan 1.7. End of third phase, dead Moloc and Logan's taken 2.553.
I might add, that I'm comfortable in saying Logan should have 4 wounds instead of 3, which makes this even more one sided if Logan charges.
Give Moloc the charge makes it close, Logan takes 2.836, but he'll take it before Moloc drops, so even odds that he's not around to hit back and kill Moloc.
Logan charges, he wins. Moloc charges, its a tossup. But again, I see no reason that Logan shouldn't have the CM statline improvement, giving him +1 wound. If you think that's fair, then Moloc loses to Logan either way.
mathhammer is crap. Just roll some dice. 1.8 wounds means crap. One can not loose 1.8 wounds its either 1 or 2
The we'll say two since statistically it's 2 wounds four out of every five fights.
Lucarikx wrote: Wow, first time I've seen anyone disregard Mathhammer.
Remember, Mathhammer does average results, so you can expect what happens when you roll the dice.
Still can't believe how people disregard MathHammer as "crap".
Lucarikx
Also, whats the point of doing brackets, Bigboss, if you don't count TT?
Sorry i took a break, i see the troll is still well fed. As for brackets, if we are calling it on fluff again, no point. Plus, 3 wouldnt be an accurate number. If i flip a coin 3 times and get all heads that means little. Now i flip a coin 1,000 times and get all heads i more than likely have a double-headed coin.
Lucarikx wrote: Y'know, on the TT the Death Mask doesn't care if you have Fearless or not.
Also, weapon skill doesn't depend on maneuverability as much as does on the martial prowess of the character - meaning a nimble eldar civilian won't have a higher weapon skill than say a Dreadnought.
Unless you have it in front of you, a SS doesn't do a thing if you have a melta aimed at your face.
The Spear relies on jabbing actions to be dangerous. You can swing an Axe around and land hits something in swifter motions.
Pff... If you get hit repeatedly in soft mesh and get your leg amputated you won't be fighting much longer.
Do we have any fluff evidence of Moloc killing ANYONE important in single combat? He knows how to insult people, and thats really about it......
Lucarikx
yes on the TT is guess what irrelevant and yet again you have given NO proof whatsoever that says terminator armor prevents you from thrusting a spear which i think is the most desperate defense you guys have with NOTHING to back it up, and no sorry your are wrong bub the WS is his effectiveness in close combat its not the prowess of anything and effectiveness relies on what your ability to use your weapon which goes hand in hand with what??? maneuverability wow! soo i repeat since you have no logical proof to substantiate any of your desperate claims to victory aside from well......nothing and im not going to sift through my badab books but no most people he fights run in fear even a necron lord.
Dude, read my post again. I said maneuverability was a part of it, but the skill is whats most important. Also, I never said TDA prevents you from using a spear..... I just said theres only 1 real way a using a spear in combat.
Go read about your weapons a bit more, there's a good reason why spears are less efficient than axes.
Go read Moloc's Lexicanum article, he got his a$$ kicked my Maktlan Kutlakh, the Necron Lord of the Maynark Dynasty, who promptly vented Moloc into space after nearly killing him.
If he killed some nameless Necron Lord, good for him. If you aren't familiar with the Necron hierarchy, Necron lords are like advisers to the Overlords, who command the Dynasties.
Lucarikx
instead of reading lexicanum read Imperial armour volume 12 in which his termies die his contempter buddy dies and muktlan gets speared and on his retreat vents moloc, moloc does not get a scratch from muktlan
So moloc not only DIDNT kill his enemy but let him get away AND was fool enough to get vented while fully functional? hows this guy still a CM?
really cus last I checked Skarbrands still alive soo what does that say about Dante?
Duh!!!!! Daemons never truly die, they just get sent back to the warp, but they can come back again. Same thing would happen if Moloc killed a daemon.
Wow just when I thought the Dante fanclub trolls were all gone, man this forum was finally becoming fun.
2 things: Pot calling the kettle black? I'm not a Dante fanboi at all. I've ran BA twice in all my matches (I've played a few, see my sig). But you guys can't see that you're probably more dug in on Moloc than the rest of the "fanclab" is on Dante.
Second: see that trick with the spoilers, if you feel some odd compulsion to quote an entire conversation that was an entire post before yours, do we really need to put the entire wall of text up everytime? To all parties: just quote the relevant part or put it in spoiler tags, it's really inconsiderate and kinda "forum rude" to repost entire conversations just for a few sentences in reply.
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2013/09/22 11:57:33
Subject: Re:Chapter Master Brawl Free for All who do you think would win???
Wow just when I thought the Dante fanclub trolls were all gone, man this forum was finally becoming fun.
Hate to tell you mate, but you're the last person who should be calling out people for being fanclub trolls.
Not that I don't agree with you, that post was awful, but you really don't have any moral high ground to come from here.
Sorry you call me a troll for defending something that makes sense, well I guess I need to research the definition of a troll?
Honestly stop with all this he's a troll crap we have been having fun in this forum ever since the Dantites left soo please dont bring it back you want to claim his victory cool go for it, but dont feed me all this bullcrap, delusional, reasons.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Is there any actual proof to the skarbrand thing though? I mean it says it's a potential myth and that he killed him in one hit..
I mean I know everyone harps on Draigo for cutting down a primarch, but Skarbrand used to be Khornes near number 1 general bloodthirster.
Draigo has been slowly creeping up in the polls he's definitely a tough cookie.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/22 12:31:26
2013/09/22 13:22:27
Subject: Re:Chapter Master Brawl Free for All who do you think would win???
Wow just when I thought the Dante fanclub trolls were all gone, man this forum was finally becoming fun.
Hate to tell you mate, but you're the last person who should be calling out people for being fanclub trolls.
Not that I don't agree with you, that post was awful, but you really don't have any moral high ground to come from here.
Sorry you call me a troll for defending something that makes sense, well I guess I need to research the definition of a troll?
Honestly stop with all this he's a troll crap we have been having fun in this forum ever since the Dantites left soo please dont bring it back you want to claim his victory cool go for it, but dont feed me all this bullcrap, delusional, reasons.
Look, you're the one who dismissed basic statistics as inaccurate. You really do need to take a step back and think about what you're doing in this thread, because it's borderline crazy.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
2013/09/22 14:25:04
Subject: Re:Chapter Master Brawl Free for All who do you think would win???
Wow just when I thought the Dante fanclub trolls were all gone, man this forum was finally becoming fun.
Hate to tell you mate, but you're the last person who should be calling out people for being fanclub trolls.
Not that I don't agree with you, that post was awful, but you really don't have any moral high ground to come from here.
Sorry you call me a troll for defending something that makes sense, well I guess I need to research the definition of a troll?
Honestly stop with all this he's a troll crap we have been having fun in this forum ever since the Dantites left soo please dont bring it back you want to claim his victory cool go for it, but dont feed me all this bullcrap, delusional, reasons.
Look, you're the one who dismissed basic statistics as inaccurate. You really do need to take a step back and think about what you're doing in this thread, because it's borderline crazy.
Look, basic statistics really? saying that a chapter master with a specific weapon cant win because supposedly its impossible to use said weapon efficiantly even though he's been using it for over 500 years? Look go home your drunk, take a step back and go feed you statistics to someone else alright have a nice day.
2013/09/22 14:39:03
Subject: Re:Chapter Master Brawl Free for All who do you think would win???
Wow just when I thought the Dante fanclub trolls were all gone, man this forum was finally becoming fun.
Hate to tell you mate, but you're the last person who should be calling out people for being fanclub trolls.
Not that I don't agree with you, that post was awful, but you really don't have any moral high ground to come from here.
Sorry you call me a troll for defending something that makes sense, well I guess I need to research the definition of a troll?
Honestly stop with all this he's a troll crap we have been having fun in this forum ever since the Dantites left soo please dont bring it back you want to claim his victory cool go for it, but dont feed me all this bullcrap, delusional, reasons.
Look, you're the one who dismissed basic statistics as inaccurate. You really do need to take a step back and think about what you're doing in this thread, because it's borderline crazy.
Look, basic statistics really? saying that a chapter master with a specific weapon cant win because supposedly its impossible to use said weapon efficiantly even though he's been using it for over 500 years? Look go home your drunk, take a step back and go feed you statistics to someone else alright have a nice day.
Case in point. You're trying to dismiss something you clearly have no understanding of. Besides (as has been pointed out several times in the thread already) you keep switching between wanting to argue fluff and wanting to include tabletop stats and rules. Tabletop-wise Moloc just doesn't win often enough to be a viable contender for "best", fluff-wise he's good but not the best.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
2013/09/22 14:53:20
Subject: Chapter Master Brawl Free for All who do you think would win???
Also let me point out i never said he wouldnt be able to use it. I said he wouldnt be able to use it in the most effective manner (a straight arm spear thrust) and provided reasons as to why. You then retorted that it wouldnt matter because dante would be too slow to avoid it or his axe (that hes used for 1100+ years) wouldnt be fast enough to strike him before he could bring his shield up. You also made an argument that if dante landed behind him Moloc would be able to easily turn around and block before Dante could strike with his axe, contrary to fluff which states that termie armor trades maneuverability for protection.
Azreal13 wrote: Not that it matters because given the amount of interbreeding that went on with that lot I'm pretty sure the Queen is her own Uncle.
BA 6000; 1250
Really this thread just failed on about 3 levels, you should all feel bad and do better.-motyak
2013/09/22 15:05:25
Subject: Chapter Master Brawl Free for All who do you think would win???
Thatguyhsagun wrote: Also let me point out i never said he wouldnt be able to use it. I said he wouldnt be able to use it in the most effective manner (a straight arm spear thrust) and provided reasons as to why. You then retorted that it wouldnt matter because dante would be too slow to avoid it or his axe (that hes used for 1100+ years) wouldnt be fast enough to strike him before he could bring his shield up. You also made an argument that if dante landed behind him Moloc would be able to easily turn around and block before Dante could strike with his axe, contrary to fluff which states that termie armor trades maneuverability for protection.
Look tabletop rules somewhat mirror fluff ok and a power axe is unwieldy no? Ok that aside considering you do not own a set of termie armor in your garage I say your arguement is invalid, and to think that a guy that gets his own custom termie armor made for him funded by the lords of terra without the capabilities to allow him to use his spear efficiantly is completely ignorant.
Wow just when I thought the Dante fanclub trolls were all gone, man this forum was finally becoming fun.
Hate to tell you mate, but you're the last person who should be calling out people for being fanclub trolls.
Not that I don't agree with you, that post was awful, but you really don't have any moral high ground to come from here.
Sorry you call me a troll for defending something that makes sense, well I guess I need to research the definition of a troll?
Honestly stop with all this he's a troll crap we have been having fun in this forum ever since the Dantites left soo please dont bring it back you want to claim his victory cool go for it, but dont feed me all this bullcrap, delusional, reasons.
Look, you're the one who dismissed basic statistics as inaccurate. You really do need to take a step back and think about what you're doing in this thread, because it's borderline crazy.
Look, basic statistics really? saying that a chapter master with a specific weapon cant win because supposedly its impossible to use said weapon efficiantly even though he's been using it for over 500 years? Look go home your drunk, take a step back and go feed you statistics to someone else alright have a nice day.
Case in point. You're trying to dismiss something you clearly have no understanding of. Besides (as has been pointed out several times in the thread already) you keep switching between wanting to argue fluff and wanting to include tabletop stats and rules. Tabletop-wise Moloc just doesn't win often enough to be a viable contender for "best", fluff-wise he's good but not the best.
And ive alredy said four times I know Moloc would not win but I know he would beat him, maybe not a flawless victory but to say a flying axe wielding barbarian cant beat a heavy armored spartan is crazy.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/22 15:09:58
2013/09/22 15:15:54
Subject: Chapter Master Brawl Free for All who do you think would win???
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2013/09/22 16:20:20
Subject: Re:Chapter Master Brawl Free for All who do you think would win???
Thatguyhsagun wrote: Also let me point out i never said he wouldnt be able to use it. I said he wouldnt be able to use it in the most effective manner (a straight arm spear thrust) and provided reasons as to why. You then retorted that it wouldnt matter because dante would be too slow to avoid it or his axe (that hes used for 1100+ years) wouldnt be fast enough to strike him before he could bring his shield up. You also made an argument that if dante landed behind him Moloc would be able to easily turn around and block before Dante could strike with his axe, contrary to fluff which states that termie armor trades maneuverability for protection.
Look tabletop rules somewhat mirror fluff ok and a power axe is unwieldy no? Ok that aside considering you do not own a set of termie armor in your garage I say your arguement is invalid, and to think that a guy that gets his own custom termie armor made for him funded by the lords of terra without the capabilities to allow him to use his spear efficiantly is completely ignorant.
Wow just when I thought the Dante fanclub trolls were all gone, man this forum was finally becoming fun.
Hate to tell you mate, but you're the last person who should be calling out people for being fanclub trolls.
Not that I don't agree with you, that post was awful, but you really don't have any moral high ground to come from here.
Sorry you call me a troll for defending something that makes sense, well I guess I need to research the definition of a troll?
Honestly stop with all this he's a troll crap we have been having fun in this forum ever since the Dantites left soo please dont bring it back you want to claim his victory cool go for it, but dont feed me all this bullcrap, delusional, reasons.
Look, you're the one who dismissed basic statistics as inaccurate. You really do need to take a step back and think about what you're doing in this thread, because it's borderline crazy.
Look, basic statistics really? saying that a chapter master with a specific weapon cant win because supposedly its impossible to use said weapon efficiantly even though he's been using it for over 500 years? Look go home your drunk, take a step back and go feed you statistics to someone else alright have a nice day.
Case in point. You're trying to dismiss something you clearly have no understanding of. Besides (as has been pointed out several times in the thread already) you keep switching between wanting to argue fluff and wanting to include tabletop stats and rules. Tabletop-wise Moloc just doesn't win often enough to be a viable contender for "best", fluff-wise he's good but not the best.
And ive alredy said four times I know Moloc would not win but I know he would beat him, maybe not a flawless victory but to say a flying axe wielding barbarian cant beat a heavy armored spartan is crazy.
[/spoiler] Actually until 6th edition it was at initiative... It was marked unwieldy to make it less OP when 6th came out. A mace is slower than an axe but strikes at initiative because its only AP4, nobody would take it if it struck at I1, and he is no barbarian. That implies he doesnt plan nor does he have any grasp of martial prowess. He isnt a space wolf Blood Claw nor does he suffer from black rage/red thirst. He has been fighting over 1100 years im certain he knows what works and what doesnt
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/22 17:40:18
Azreal13 wrote: Not that it matters because given the amount of interbreeding that went on with that lot I'm pretty sure the Queen is her own Uncle.
BA 6000; 1250
Really this thread just failed on about 3 levels, you should all feel bad and do better.-motyak
2013/09/22 17:52:00
Subject: Chapter Master Brawl Free for All who do you think would win???
Wow just when I thought the Dante fanclub trolls were all gone, man this forum was finally becoming fun.
I don't think anyone is actually in the dante 'fanclub' - it was more that your posts read 'but MOLOC' to anything anybody said and forced people into the other corner.
Not that you're a Moloc fanclub troll or anything....
Weird - atm this poll is exactly how I thought it should go.
The big three of Calgar, Dante and Grimnar (in any order) - then the rest.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/09/23 08:04:00
Its because ordinance is still a word.
However, firing ordinance at someone isn't nearly as threatening as firing ordnance at someone.
Ordinance is a local law, or bill, or other form of legislation.
Ordnance is high caliber explosives.
No 'I' in ordnance.
Don't drown the enemy in legislation, drown them in explosives.
2013/09/23 08:32:09
Subject: Chapter Master Brawl Free for All who do you think would win???
Wow just when I thought the Dante fanclub trolls were all gone, man this forum was finally becoming fun.
I don't think anyone is actually in the dante 'fanclub' - it was more that your posts read 'but MOLOC' to anything anybody said and forced people into the other corner.
Not that you're a Moloc fanclub troll or anything....
Weird - atm this poll is exactly how I thought it should go.
The big three of Calgar, Dante and Grimnar (in any order) - then the rest.
Yeah I assumed these same results I'm honestly surprised Moloc got as many votes as he did I mean I garuntee that barely anyone knows him, although Draigo is slowly creeping up lol.
2013/09/23 08:54:45
Subject: Chapter Master Brawl Free for All who do you think would win???
Its because ordinance is still a word.
However, firing ordinance at someone isn't nearly as threatening as firing ordnance at someone.
Ordinance is a local law, or bill, or other form of legislation.
Ordnance is high caliber explosives.
No 'I' in ordnance.
Don't drown the enemy in legislation, drown them in explosives.
2013/09/23 11:35:23
Subject: Chapter Master Brawl Free for All who do you think would win???
Unfortunately the Watcher in the Dark hasn't been on the poll for long, so he has not had a chance for any votes.
Turning out like I expected as well. Calgar, Logan and Dante at top. Fluffwise I think any of those 3 take the top spot. If those 3 were to fight I think it would be a case of who was better on the day.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/09/23 11:50:06
2013/09/23 11:57:31
Subject: Chapter Master Brawl Free for All who do you think would win???
Unfortunately the Watcher in the Dark hasn't been on the poll for long, so he has not had a chance for any votes.
Turning out like I expected as well. Calgar, Logan and Dante at top. Fluffwise I think any of those 3 take the top spot. If those 3 were to fight I think it would be a case of who was better on the day.
Well dante would die horrendously if he gets wounded by either of the other opponents
Azreal13 wrote: Not that it matters because given the amount of interbreeding that went on with that lot I'm pretty sure the Queen is her own Uncle.
BA 6000; 1250
Really this thread just failed on about 3 levels, you should all feel bad and do better.-motyak
2013/09/23 12:03:27
Subject: Chapter Master Brawl Free for All who do you think would win???
Well dante would die horrendously if he gets wounded by either of the other opponents
tabletop wise, absolutely. Dantes lack of Eternal Warrior hurts quite badly. Calgar and Logan would just instant death him. However fluffwise I think the big 3 are really closely matched.
2013/09/23 12:05:30
Subject: Chapter Master Brawl Free for All who do you think would win???
Its because ordinance is still a word.
However, firing ordinance at someone isn't nearly as threatening as firing ordnance at someone.
Ordinance is a local law, or bill, or other form of legislation.
Ordnance is high caliber explosives.
No 'I' in ordnance.
Don't drown the enemy in legislation, drown them in explosives.
2013/09/23 12:10:37
Subject: Chapter Master Brawl Free for All who do you think would win???
anyone have both sets of rules and enought time to work it out?
I did this calculation a while ago and from what I remember Logan barely wins, even when charged. If Calgar gets to kite first he takes the lead again.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
2013/09/23 12:11:14
Subject: Chapter Master Brawl Free for All who do you think would win???
anyone have both sets of rules and enought time to work it out?
\Logan. Sheer number of attacks at the same I step, both with AP2 and S8, both with a 4++. the only thing is logan only has 3 wounds doesnt he? with twice the number of attacks he should be able to take the cake
Well dante would die horrendously if he gets wounded by either of the other opponents
tabletop wise, absolutely. Dantes lack of Eternal Warrior hurts quite badly. Calgar and Logan would just instant death him. However fluffwise I think the big 3 are really closely matched.
fair enough.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/23 12:11:42
Azreal13 wrote: Not that it matters because given the amount of interbreeding that went on with that lot I'm pretty sure the Queen is her own Uncle.
BA 6000; 1250
Really this thread just failed on about 3 levels, you should all feel bad and do better.-motyak
2013/09/23 12:25:02
Subject: Chapter Master Brawl Free for All who do you think would win???
anyone have both sets of rules and enought time to work it out?
I did this calculation a while ago and from what I remember Logan barely wins, even when charged. If Calgar gets to kite first he takes the lead again.
Thanks
So - Dante is the fluff king (atm in the poll) and Grimnar wins TT?
Its because ordinance is still a word.
However, firing ordinance at someone isn't nearly as threatening as firing ordnance at someone.
Ordinance is a local law, or bill, or other form of legislation.
Ordnance is high caliber explosives.
No 'I' in ordnance.
Don't drown the enemy in legislation, drown them in explosives.
2013/09/23 12:33:01
Subject: Chapter Master Brawl Free for All who do you think would win???
Blue DP Crusade 126-11-6 
Biel-Tan Aspect Waves 2-0-2 
Looted Green Horde smash your face in 32-7-8 
Broadside/Shield Drone/Kroot blitz goodness 23-3-4 
Grey Hunters galore 17-5-5 
Khan Bikes Win 63-1-1 
Tanith with Pardus Armor 11-0-0 
Crimson Tide 59-4-0 
Green/Raven/Deathwing 18-0-0 
Jumping GK force with Inq. 4-0-0 
BTemplars w LRs 7-1-2 
IH Legion with Automata 8-0-0 
RG Legion w Adepticon medal 6-0-0 
BA 6000; 
1250
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