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Hi Dakka,

I play Black Templars, usually take atleast one of the 5 man heavy/special weapon squads, usually in a rhino. The rhino works great as a bunker with its two fire points.

i have also seen Razorbacks as a popular choice, and wondered how people use them in game with such expensive ranged weapons inside and no fire points.

Do you just deploy them on their own to use as a tank in their own right, or to transport the troops to a better vantage point. What are the pros and cons of using a RB over a rhino?

Thanks in advance

Always used them with twin linked assault cannons for versatility or backup AA, I tend to drop the squad off on/near an objective early in the game then use the razorback as fire support for the squad.

First off, you have to see the razorback as an IFV; and a crummy one at that(compared to the other 2 major IFVs in the game, the chimera and the waveserpent).

Heavy flamers are worthless compared to the HBs. You are generally going to accrue more Hits with the Bolters over the course of the game do to limited range and opponents breaking up their formations when they are going to be within template range.

6th edition has destroyed the Las/plas option with having the Plasma gets hot effect the vehicle(More-so with the twin-linking then you would expect at a 5.555% chance instead of the 2.7777% chance of a T-L BS5) and making you snap-fire one of the 2 weapons. Also if you are trying to hit with the plasmas snap-firing you only have a 2.7777% chance to hit(With a now 13.8888% chance to overheat).

So that leaves us with the bare Heavy Bolter, which is poor against armour. The T-L Lascannon, which is poor against Infantry. And the T-L Asscanns which, while good vs both, gets out-ranged by both other guns(and you have to find the bits; which are effectively 19.75 per tank).

I would go with either; Several Razorbacks in an equal mix of Las and HB, or all Asscannons(and likely not many of them unless you are pirating the guns or have plenty of $ to burn).

Land speeder assault cannons can be bought dirt cheap on ebay, cut the barrels of the breech, cut the barrels off the razorback HBs and glue on the assault cannons, I've done 3 like this for barely more than the cost of a razorback.

Now that you point that out, if you don't mind cutting metal you can get the bitz from GW @ $8/razorback(Termi-asscan or tornado ones).

I've seen some simple and convincing conversions as well, rods or tubes etc.

I toyed with taking several TL lazorbacks and using them as back up AA, but that was in CA, marines get sexy new (and cheap) AA tanks if they want them.

The AsC seems like a good area denial weapon to support the marines (especially BT, with their penchant for getting close), until the tank gets shot from outside of 24". Still, might be shots that don't hit your marines.

If you have an adl set it up next to your devastators to help avoid being flanked. Then you have an extra weapon firing away with them. Assault cannons are pretty great. I wish codex 31 flavors had an IFV that packed a bunch off assault cannons, or there was a reliable way of geting them en masse.

I am not using devastators, if anything the squads I would be putting in them -the las/plas 5-6 man crusader squads will play that role.

Though I am grateful for the feedback on loadouts and such, my question has not quite been answered:

I take 1-2 of the squads described above - the rest of my army will typically consist of CC oriented squads in either LRCs or Rhino, so I am mainly lacking ranged anti-tank.

How do you use them on the tabletop? As transports in actuality, or in name only (mainly as part of a gunline)?Rhinos have worked great for me as mobile bunkers with my las-plas guys shooting out, However, I have seen the same squads in lists inside razorbacks, so I wondered why this is, and how they would be used?

I just played a game with my new SM CT: IH list featuring 4 razorbacks (2 las and 2 assault cannons) and a landraider crusader as well as two predator annihilators. My opponent was using my Tau army.

I got horrifically crushed as the razorbacks are bait for just about every weapon in the Tau army, and the aegis was plenty good enough to stop the lascannon fire from attritioning away too much of his firepower.

I'm not sure I'm really convinced about razorbacks, but I'm going to keep trying this. All i need is for a couple units with flamers to reach the aegis. It could just be that Tau are a bad matchup for razorback heavy lists, but I'm wondering against whom they would be strong...

 Largeblastmarker wrote:
If you have an adl set it up next to your devastators to help avoid being flanked. Then you have an extra weapon firing away with them. Assault cannons are pretty great. I wish codex 31 flavors had an IFV that packed a bunch off assault cannons, or there was a reliable way of geting them en masse.

I feel like i've met my soul mate. I've tried numerous lists that bring as many Assault cannons as possible but none ever worked out. They're just too frikkin expensive.

I currently run two las/plas razorbacks for versatility. The lascannon gives some long range fire support and the plasma provides extra protection against deep strikers. It gives me the most situational flexibility. I've been using mine as troop carriers for five marines with a melta gun only and it did well this past weekend at Golden Throne Southwest.

astro_nomicon wrote:

 Largeblastmarker wrote:
If you have an adl set it up next to your devastators to help avoid being flanked. Then you have an extra weapon firing away with them. Assault cannons are pretty great. I wish codex 31 flavors had an IFV that packed a bunch off assault cannons, or there was a reliable way of geting them en masse.

I feel like i've met my soul mate. I've tried numerous lists that bring as many Assault cannons as possible but none ever worked out. They're just too frikkin expensive.

This one of the reasons I don't think the assault cannon is a very good weapon. 24" range sucks as well.

I run them with a defense line, deploying the defense line forward. I move up ~12" to the firing line and fire snap shots, then just stay parked firing for the rest of the game (or shifting 6").


-Matt

All interesting responses that I am grateful to receive, so I really hope I don't come across as a d**k for repeating this part of my question.

Say you have 5 shooty marines. Being in a rhino has definite advantages: protection, mobility, and they can shoot out: synergy between transport and unit.

What would the purpose be of equipping the same squad with a razorback? I see a lot of lists where people do this, and it strikes me that there is less synergy, mainly owing to the lack of a firepoint on the tank.

So what ARE the advantages of this choice? Is it just to get another tank armed with heavy weapons into the list, if you don't have the space for predators? Does the RB ever actually see service transporting the squad? Do they provide anything to one another on the battlefield, or is it just a convention of the FOC? Do they even operate together on the field?

I would love some thoughts on the above, although don't mistake this for ingratitude: I am hoovering up the advice on general RB use!

It is mostly another heavy weapon, but also mobile cover, and a place to hide if a hell-drake enters the field.

Either twin las or twin assault; las/plas and flamers are out due to reasons above, and heavy bolters really don't do much damage at all to justify taking on an incredibly fragile platform. Las is decent for long range fire support, wheras asscans are better suited for supporting advancing troops. Just remember, they WILL get targeted, so make sure to use terrain to your advantage. Also 5 pt dozer blades may be worth it, depending on your terrain setup.

With the price bump, Razorbacks are 90% mobile heavy weapon platforms and 10% transport.

If the goal is to move from A to B or provide protection, a Rhino does the same job for half price.

 WildeThing wrote:
All interesting responses that I am grateful to receive, so I really hope I don't come across as a d**k for repeating this part of my question.

Say you have 5 shooty marines. Being in a rhino has definite advantages: protection, mobility, and they can shoot out: synergy between transport and unit.

What would the purpose be of equipping the same squad with a razorback? I see a lot of lists where people do this, and it strikes me that there is less synergy, mainly owing to the lack of a firepoint on the tank.

So what ARE the advantages of this choice? Is it just to get another tank armed with heavy weapons into the list, if you don't have the space for predators? Does the RB ever actually see service transporting the squad? Do they provide anything to one another on the battlefield, or is it just a convention of the FOC? Do they even operate together on the field?

I would love some thoughts on the above, although don't mistake this for ingratitude: I am hoovering up the advice on general RB use!

First turn or so transporting, the rest of the game covering and providing fire. There is still synergy, and assuming the razorback is still functional, the squad can still hop in if a helldrake shows up to the party.

Also, while the squad can have 2 models fire out of the Rhino, the Razorback has a T-L heavy weapon that it can fire on the move with accuracy.

it is an IFV not a bus.

I'm currently debating whether the points spent on a Razorback to support a 5 man heavy weapon squad wouldn't just be better spent buying another 5 man heavy weapon squad. Trade a minor point increase for another scoring unit.

Wait, why is the Las-Plas snapshotting?????

 WildeThing wrote:
All interesting responses that I am grateful to receive, so I really hope I don't come across as a d**k for repeating this part of my question.

Say you have 5 shooty marines. Being in a rhino has definite advantages: protection, mobility, and they can shoot out: synergy between transport and unit.

What would the purpose be of equipping the same squad with a razorback? I see a lot of lists where people do this, and it strikes me that there is less synergy, mainly owing to the lack of a firepoint on the tank.

So what ARE the advantages of this choice? Is it just to get another tank armed with heavy weapons into the list, if you don't have the space for predators? Does the RB ever actually see service transporting the squad? Do they provide anything to one another on the battlefield, or is it just a convention of the FOC? Do they even operate together on the field?

I would love some thoughts on the above, although don't mistake this for ingratitude: I am hoovering up the advice on general RB use!

The Razorback cannot be a mobile bunker the way the Rhino can, as you have mentioned. So the Razorback is for getting your squad from A to B to the position where the squad will be getting out of the Razorback. Otherwise, the Razorback is another piece of armor to add to armor saturation and a heavy weapon to contribute to your firepower.

I have used my HB Razor with a 5 man plasma combat squad somewhat like the one you plan to use. In some games I deployed them in cover and the Razorback was just a light tank/LoS blocker for the Tac Marines and in other games I used the Razor to move the squad up to a position where I wanted to deploy them into cover/get them into rapid fire range. You can hop out your 5-6 man squad in rapid fire range of your chosen target and use the Razor to block LoS or give cover saves against other enemy units that you don't want shooting the infantry squad, while also contributing its own heavy weapon fire. It can also be nice to have a transport capable vehicle hanging out with a squad of marines in the off chance that you want to hop your infantry into the vehicle and drive them somewhere (or simply protect them for a turn from nasty shooting). The Razorback basically supports the troops with mobility and added firepower, not through direct armored protection the way you can use a Rhino.

Main way to look at the difference between Rhino and Razorback is that your troops will be getting out of the Razorback to do their thing and the Razor can contribute heavy weapon fire, the Rhino is better if you want your unit to be able to stay inside the vehicle and do more than just hang out, but the Rhino only contributes a storm bolter to your offense. Otherwise both can be used for mobility or LoS blocking and cover providing purposes.

Razorbacks are not worth it anymore, plain and simple. Either take a rhino or drop pod for transport, or take preds or vindicators for weapon platforms. If you want something that will deliver and shoot, take Land Raiders, yes they cost about 150 points more, but you are not getting anything delivered in a razorback, not in 6th anyway.

BUT you asked how to use em so I will tell ya how I would use em if I had em. First off, dont take a heavy flamer or assault cannon, you want to keep that thing as far away from the enemy as possible since its AV11/11/10, almost anything can glance it to death. Dont take lascannon and TL plasmagun, its not worth the 20 point increase and getting rid of the HB. That leaves you with two options: 1. Leave a HB on it and use it to shoot at anything with a high toughness and relatively low save. 2. Throw a TL Laz on it and use them to take pop-shots at AV. Thats pretty much it. I wouldn't use them for transport since they enemy will be sure to shoot at it any chance they have since they have a weapon AND troops; it will get destroyed fast and you will be stranded.

However, if you are taking them just for the HB, you are paying 55 points for a single HB on AV11, pay 40 more points and you can get 2 HB and an autocannon on a pred. If you are taking them just for the Laz on AV11, you are paying 75 points for a laz shot, pay 70 more and you get 2 regular and 1 TL laz shot on a pred.

Seriously, they are not worth it in my book, AV11 doesnt last long in this ed, a few glances and its destroyed, not even counting what they roll. From the first turn they are fired on chances are they will stop moving that turn or A LOT worse, so once they get shot once, they no longer can do anything for ya.

Edit: I have 5 rhino chasis that I have, I got a few thing to throw on em to use em as preds, whirlwind, razorbacks, etc. Razorbacks never worked well for me, they worked "ok" but never near "well". That is why I have 7 drop pods.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
6th edition has destroyed the Las/plas option with having the Plasma gets hot effect the vehicle(More-so with the twin-linking then you would expect at a 5.555% chance instead of the 2.7777% chance of a T-L BS5) and making you snap-fire one of the 2 weapons. Also if you are trying to hit with the plasmas snap-firing you only have a 2.7777% chance to hit(With a now 13.8888% chance to overheat).

Where are you getting those numbers for Gets Hot! overheats? By my math, each shot has only ~1.3889% chance to actually cause you damage, yielding an aggregate ~2.7585% chance of damage when double-tapping. Snap-firing should also have no effect on overheats, since the Gets Hot! rule triggers only on ones, not on all misses.

Needless to say, I disagree with the conclusion that Razorbacks suddenly suck now. TL-AC, TL-LC, and Las/Plas are exactly the same price as before; TL-HF actually got 10 points cheaper. Only TL-HB got 15 points more expensive, which is probably justifiable given the tank's greater mobility and effective firepower when moving (a bonus actually applicable to all variants except the TL-HF). While it is true that the transport capacity suffers in this edition if you wanted to charge, nothing's stopping you from disembarking and unloading bolter fire into a target, which is arguably what most armies this edition should be doing anyway.

Finally, while AV 11 and HP 3 isn't spectacular as far as durability, the platform's real strength lies in its relatively lower cost and ubiquity; almost any power armored unit can select one, which lets you saturate the field with light armor and heavy weapons. If your opponent is focusing all his anti-armor weapons (and any anti-infantry weapons in the same squads) on shooting up your 75-point light tanks, what is he doing about your Marines and heavier tanks?

I've been trying razorbacks with my BA lately.
I tried a little bit random setup: assault squad with plasma gun in a RB with Plas/Las. Moved the squad quickly in the first turn, took a good position in cover/near objective and started firing at heavy infantry/ light vehicles. Worked well I guess...

If you're buying the RB for it's gun, is it really worth it?
I'm struggling with just that question..

The trick to running razorbacks in this edition is to run vindicators.


Vindicators are scarier with a higher AV. If you run razorbacks alongside the vindicators your opponent will dedicate most of his firepower towards killing the vindicators allowing your razorbacks to survive a few more turns. You can also use the razorbacks to cover the side armor on the vindicators in a pinch.

A list like 3x Vindis/ 4x razorbacks is a good start to build an armor saturation list that refuses flank on small arms for a bit.

 minigun762 wrote:
If you're buying the RB for it's gun, is it really worth it?
I'm struggling with just that question..

No your buying it for that stay at home unit, the free TL HB is just an added bonus. You can still zoom up the board, load a hurt unit in it after unloading a fresh squad and then ride back to your home objectives.

Creeperman wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
6th edition has destroyed the Las/plas option with having the Plasma gets hot effect the vehicle(More-so with the twin-linking then you would expect at a 5.555% chance instead of the 2.7777% chance of a T-L BS5) and making you snap-fire one of the 2 weapons. Also if you are trying to hit with the plasmas snap-firing you only have a 2.7777% chance to hit(With a now 13.8888% chance to overheat).

Where are you getting those numbers for Gets Hot! overheats?

First, by typing the decimal point in the wrong place.

Then by doing the math incorrectly to begin with.

A twin-linked bs4 weapon gets hot 2.777% of each shot getting hot; that is 1/3 missing, and then 1/6th of those re-rolls causing a test, and 1/2 of those causing a hull point loss.

So you are just as likely to hurt yourself with each shot as you are to hit the target.

I stick to using the lascannon option and either combat squadding a squad into it, so they can grab objectives late game (they normally have a flamer in the squad too) or use it as a sniping tool with focus fire. I wish my lascannon razorbacks weren't as expensive, but I try to never leave home without them.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Creeperman wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
6th edition has destroyed the Las/plas option with having the Plasma gets hot effect the vehicle(More-so with the twin-linking then you would expect at a 5.555% chance instead of the 2.7777% chance of a T-L BS5) and making you snap-fire one of the 2 weapons. Also if you are trying to hit with the plasmas snap-firing you only have a 2.7777% chance to hit(With a now 13.8888% chance to overheat).

Where are you getting those numbers for Gets Hot! overheats?

First, by typing the decimal point in the wrong place.

Then by doing the math incorrectly to begin with.

A twin-linked bs4 weapon gets hot 2.777% of each shot getting hot; that is 1/3 missing, and then 1/6th of those re-rolls causing a test, and 1/2 of those causing a hull point loss.

So you are just as likely to hurt yourself with each shot as you are to hit the target.

not quite
each shot has first has a 1/6 chance to hit first. Then assuming you miss(5/6) chance you have another 1/6 chance to hit or overheat. The chance to overheat or hit on the second shot is the same, but 16% of the time you are never getting to the twinlinked reroll.

In all you have a 30.5% chance to hit and a 13.9 chance to overheat. More than twice as likely to hit as you are to get hot.

Having to wound and then probably facing cover or a ++ save you are talking just as likely to get hot as to KILL something.