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 Sheep wrote:
Well I'd certainly never seen it! Damn, that's a lot of already produced models!

Yep, that they're refusing to ship to backers because....... reasons?

Cheers for the video Ruglud! Certainly calmed me down some!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alex C wrote:

 Sheep wrote:
Well I'd certainly never seen it! Damn, that's a lot of already produced models!

Yep, that they're refusing to ship to backers because....... reasons?

I think it's the printing of the tiles that's causing issues if I remember right?As well as Fox being slow as gak.

It is more than the tiles and Fox. The rules still needed proofreading when they sent out the PDF. The Young Bloods were not cast-able as sculpted. The clear resin issue wasn't Fox's fault either.

 CptJake wrote:
It is more than the tiles and Fox. The rules still needed proofreading when they sent out the PDF. The Young Bloods were not cast-able as sculpted. The clear resin issue wasn't Fox's fault either.

The young blood and clear resin issues should have been overcome what with Jarek insisting that the only things they are waiting on now is printed materials. He's also saying they will still ship in 2 waves - box sets first and then add-ons, but if the models exist, there's surely no good reason why they couldn't ship the other way round and we'd all have a bunch of cool models.

This leads me to believe that the young bloods and clears (and 3d terrain) are not ready, which means he'd being less than truthful, which means I have no reason to believe anything else he says. A kickstarter creator/backer relationship is all about trust, and Prodos have breached that trust with months of miss-information and I suspect, in the case of the IP dispute, smoke and mirrors.

I suspect whatever the real issue between Fox and Prodos is at this point prevents Prodos from shipping out anything.

Another exacerbating (or an alternative) factor could be cash flow. Shipping out all the existing figures takes money.

Or it could be something completely different. We don't know and likely never will.

I suspect whatever comms between Prodos and Fox which are ongoing, or any ongoing approvals, will slow down/pause over the holiday period and hopefully renew with a quickness after the new year begins.

yeah,
Exciting to see the mins produced!

Was it just me or were they handeling our minis quite rough? Throwing those minis and boxes around.
I hear a lot of warzone minis arrived broken...

Panic...

 Panic wrote:
yeah,
Exciting to see the mins produced!

Was it just me or were they handeling our minis quite rough? Throwing those minis and boxes around.
I hear a lot of warzone minis arrived broken...

Panic...

I was thinking the same thing.

I fully expect to get broken stuff when/if I receive my order.

The question is, do I fix them as best I can or submit myself to the agony of dealing with Prodos' "customer service" to get replacements?

I'm leaning toward the former...

 Panic wrote:

Was it just me or were they handeling our minis quite rough? Throwing those minis and boxes around.
I hear a lot of warzone minis arrived broken...

Panic...

I was thinking "whomever made that video seems to be having a bit of a tantrum"

 CptJake wrote:

 Panic wrote:

Was it just me or were they handeling our minis quite rough? Throwing those minis and boxes around.
I hear a lot of warzone minis arrived broken...

Panic...

I was thinking "whomever made that video seems to be having a bit of a tantrum"

Exactly!

Like they were thinking "Wanna see stuff? Here's your fething stuff!"

yeah,
This photo is on their facebook page since June.
https://www.facebook.com/prodosgamesltd/photos/pb.223527654478564.-2207520000.1418223974./301733319991330/?type=3&theater
Click the Facebook link and Comment - ask Prodos to get these sent!


Panic...

Well while this has been going on, I've been exchanging emails with Kickstarter to see what I could find out.

I was getting nothing more than standard cut/paste replies from their support desk, so today I tried the copyright team directly.

My email to them ...

Ref: Alien vs Predator The Miniatures Game - IP dispute.

Dear Sir/Madam,

In accordance with your copyright help page which states the following ...

"Will anyone see my DMCA notification or counter-notification?

Kickstarter is committed to transparency in disabling access to users' content. We may publish a copy of each DMCA notification and counter-notification. All personally-identifying information will be removed from notifications and counter-notifications before they are published."

please provide me with a copy of the DMCA notification and any counter notification.

Yours faithfully,

xxxxxx

and this time I have a response .....

Hi xxxxxx,

Thanks for writing in. The project in question was removed from public view as a result of an intellectual property claim by 20th Century Fox that falls outside of the DMCA. Accordingly, no DMCA notice was posted on the site.

We hope this helps.

Regards,

Kickstarter Copyright

Make of that what you will, but it doesn't match what we've been told by Prodos no matter which version of their excuses you believe.

So Prodos didn't have the permission of 20th century fox to do the game? does not bode well.

That's much to big an assumption to make, I think it's much more probable that there were certain elements of the game or miniatures that Fox haven't agreed with.

 Pacific wrote:
That's much to big an assumption to make, I think it's much more probable that there were certain elements of the game or miniatures that Fox haven't agreed with.

I agree - it's likely that they did have permission but for some reason that permission has been withrawn - hopefully temporarily pending renegotiation or something.

well not being in the KS i'm not sure of all of what was involved, it could be a minor issue like maybe a certain item is not permitted, but something tells me that isn't it, since if it was the offending item would have been removed, but the fact the whole thing was removed says that something big occurred and things are not looking good, but then again I could be wrong.

yeah - if you start with the assumption that Prodos and Fox already had a working agreement, and then consider that there was something relatively minor that Fox didn't like - a model, a bit of concept art, whatever, then why would they not have discussed that and moved forward rather than launching an IP dispute? That seems rather unnecessarily combative, if indeed the two companies were talking.

Glad people are talking here about it. Not impressed with recent developments. I can deal with the delays but have similar conserns to others here. I tend to lerk on here and comment on KS but now that method of coms is gone.

Thanks biggusdoggus

This makes more sense,

I was getting nothing more than standard cut/paste replies from their support desk, so today I tried the copyright team directly.
My email to them ...

Ref: Alien vs Predator The Miniatures Game - IP dispute.

Dear Sir/Madam,

In accordance with your copyright help page which states the following ...

"Will anyone see my DMCA notification or counter-notification?

Kickstarter is committed to transparency in disabling access to users' content. We may publish a copy of each DMCA notification and counter-notification. All personally-identifying information will be removed from notifications and counter-notifications before they are published."

please provide me with a copy of the DMCA notification and any counter notification.

Yours faithfully,

xxxxxx

and this time I have a response .....

Hi xxxxxx,

Thanks for writing in. The project in question was removed from public view as a result of an intellectual property claim by 20th Century Fox that falls outside of the DMCA. Accordingly, no DMCA notice was posted on the site.

We hope this helps.

Regards,

Kickstarter Copyright

Make of that what you will, but it doesn't match what we've been told by Prodos no matter which version of their excuses you believe.

With regards some of the comments on the following https://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DVH_-OmUCYWY&h=fAQFELt_v

The telling bit was from what was said in the interview, it sounds like Fox wasn't happy about KS backers seeing anything until the whole package was ready for consumers. So basically Fox entered with a closed policy and no show and Prodos the open show it all. You really cannot make this stuff up, but it does kind of explain the Copyright issue as Fox must be 'Personal opinion' considering the showing of designs as a (c) violation due to them both being their intellectual property and not approved so made a complaint.

If this is the case shows how little Fox understood the whole process. Still at least have seen some images of boxed stuff so hoping for best.....

 adlard.matthew wrote:
Thanks biggusdoggus

This makes more sense,

With regards some of the comments on the following https://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DVH_-OmUCYWY&h=fAQFELt_v

The telling bit was from what was said in the interview, it sounds like Fox wasn't happy about KS backers seeing anything until the whole package was ready for consumers. So basically Fox entered with a closed policy and no show and Prodos the open show it all. You really cannot make this stuff up, but it does kind of explain the Copyright issue as Fox must be 'Personal opinion' considering the showing of designs as a (c) violation due to them both being their intellectual property and not approved so made a complaint.

If this is the case shows how little Fox understood the whole process. Still at least have seen some images of boxed stuff so hoping for best.....

It really beggars belief that Fox entered into a licencing agreement with Prodos without investigating how kickstarter works first. I'd have expected their legal eagles to be all over that like a bad rash.

If the contract laid out what was and was not permissible to show, Prodos may have been able to realize perhaps KS was not an appropriate funding vehicle. Fox understanding KS probably would have had a major affect on the the wording of what ever agreement was signed. If Fox typically prohibits showing WIP product, they probably include words to prohibit that.

If the contract/license agreement did not specify any of that, shame on both parties for not getting/giving clarification when issues arose.

Of course, without having access to the documents, who knows for sure?

biggusdoggus wrote:

 adlard.matthew wrote:
Thanks biggusdoggus

This makes more sense,

With regards some of the comments on the following https://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DVH_-OmUCYWY&h=fAQFELt_v

The telling bit was from what was said in the interview, it sounds like Fox wasn't happy about KS backers seeing anything until the whole package was ready for consumers. So basically Fox entered with a closed policy and no show and Prodos the open show it all. You really cannot make this stuff up, but it does kind of explain the Copyright issue as Fox must be 'Personal opinion' considering the showing of designs as a (c) violation due to them both being their intellectual property and not approved so made a complaint.

If this is the case shows how little Fox understood the whole process. Still at least have seen some images of boxed stuff so hoping for best.....

It really beggars belief that Fox entered into a licencing agreement with Prodos without investigating how kickstarter works first. I'd have expected their legal eagles to be all over that like a bad rash.

While they absolutely should have been, I can certainly see a scenario in my head where - to FOX - Kickstarter is simply the funding source that Prodos are using. You know, that funny pre-order system the kids keep talking about. The idea that Prodos would have any obligation to the people who 'pre-order' the game probably never entered their minds.. or if it did, they simply assumed that if there were conflicting expectations, Prodos would always pick FOX over us.

I mean.. I remember the heady days of working for a small company. A trade show down the road? Lets pack up some things and go! The reporting chain between us and the execs was like.. 3 people. Now after two acquisitions, I have to submit a request to blow my nose at least six weeks in advance because that request has to pass through the hands of a dozen people, none of whom can say 'yes', but all of whom can play it safe and say 'no'.. and it when it does reach somebody empowered to approve the request, that person is so far up the food chain that he has no idea what a nose is or why it would need to be blown.

There's a reason that so many big companies have been trying to embrace "Agile" in the last few years - they recognise the benefits of being small like Prodos.. but so few corporations are willing to fully surrender the power of decision making and empower their lower level employees. So to some exec at FOX, every time Prodos attend a convention and show off / give away some AvP minis, that don't see that as the kind of marketing that a small company needs to do.. it's just disobedience.

I'm not bitter. Much!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CptJake wrote:


If the contract laid out what was and was not permissible to show, Prodos may have been able to realize perhaps KS was not an appropriate funding vehicle. Fox understanding KS probably would have had a major affect on the the wording of what ever agreement was signed. If Fox typically prohibits showing WIP product, they probably include words to prohibit that.

If the contract/license agreement did not specify any of that, shame on both parties for not getting/giving clarification when issues arose.

Of course, without having access to the documents, who knows for sure?

Indeed on both points.

In-freaking-deed.

If the contract laid out what was and was not permissible to show, Prodos may have been able to realize perhaps KS was not an appropriate funding vehicle. Fox understanding KS probably would have had a major affect on the the wording of what ever agreement was signed. If Fox typically prohibits showing WIP product, they probably include words to prohibit that.

If the contract/license agreement did not specify any of that, shame on both parties for not getting/giving clarification when issues arose.

Of course, without having access to the documents, who knows for sure?

True, sadly true, but it does seem to show in that direction.

Rather suspect that Fox 'Personal speculation, before tin foil hat wearers start :p' took to this as they would any other toy producers with finished models in a nice shiny pack like the action figures and this is a whole new concept. In fact cannot think of any other KS Fox backed/team project, so this could all be new to Fox.

Speculation one knows but Fox being as they are they set up a team who just saw this as a toy manufacturer licence deal, and suddenly found them selves with an unknown entity and basically spat dummy out of pram. Pity as they could have pushed this one really big with Fox coming off really well, with lines like Terminator, planet of apes, X-men, wargames. etc.

 Alex C wrote:
Serious question here: Is anyone going to buy anything else from Prodos in the future? Would anyone back any future KS they might do?

No.
This KS actually has the honour of being the only KS where I actually cancelled my pledge (as opposed to dropped down to $1). I'm glad I dropped out, and I won't back anything from Prodos again (along with Panda, Wargames Factory and a few others).

Regardless of the reasons behind the scenes, if the KS email posted above if true, Prodos flat out lied about the "accidental" KS page shutdown. That is inexcusable.

 warboss wrote:
Regardless of the reasons behind the scenes, if the KS email posted above if true, Prodos flat out lied about the "accidental" KS page shutdown. That is inexcusable.

Lying is about the only thing Prodos has a knack for.

You guys think if we wrote FOX legal about whats going on they might provide us with some clue as to whats up and how much money we're being screwed out of? lol

chaos0xomega wrote:
You guys think if we wrote FOX legal about whats going on they might provide us with some clue as to whats up and how much money we're being screwed out of? lol

Doubt you will get any response since if the deal is under dispute the will give their patented "No Comment" response.

chaos0xomega wrote:
You guys think if we wrote FOX legal about whats going on they might provide us with some clue as to whats up and how much money we're being screwed out of? lol

I'm way ahead of you. They've ignored my emails so far (as I'd expect).

 CptJake wrote:
I suspect whatever the real issue between Fox and Prodos is at this point prevents Prodos from shipping out anything.

I did not back this, but I was hoping to see this product hit retail, and YIKES!

Fox basically has Prodos over a barrel here. Prodos completed manufacturing and production, so they have basically NO money - it's all spent except for whatever Prodos budgeted for freight, shipping and handling. Plus, the DCMA takedown pretty much kills Prodos ability to communicate and get help. Thing is, without communications, it's not possible to know what the issue is. And as this is probably all legal communications, there probably isn't much of anything that Prodos could share, even if they wanted to. And I'm sure there's a legal injunction with huge fines if Prodos ships infringing product.

But this is how the big boys play, they play for blood, and they hit when it hurts. Expect to see GW and/or Hasbro pull the same if/when the not-Heroquest is ready to ship.

What I don't get is how Prodos could have gotten this far along without a clear legal framework from Fox. That's insane.

I hope the backers turn out OK.

Prodos has not really completed manufacturing and production. Rule book, tiles, game box, packaging for the other stuff, clear resin figures, Young Bloods... Lots of things not yet done if we are to believe Prodos (and frankly, them saying they are not done with something is about all I believe from them.) I suspect cards and any other printed material aside from the rule book and tiles are not done yet. They may have caught up on the clear resin and Young Bloods, but I wouldn't bet on it, especially if the resculpting of the Young Bloods required another run through the approval process.

I would agree they are probably out of money. When they opened up 'pre-orders' for pledges to include KS exclusives on their webstore they pretty much gave that secret away. The indicated they needed to print 5K copies of the game and had hoped to pre-sell that amount to cover their costs.