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biggusdoggus wrote:
they are blast/acid spit templates for the wargame. Odd that they included them in the boardgame box - I guess they had space on the cardstock and thought "why not" - ultimately it saves you ordering plastic ones from them or (probably) doing cut-out/photocopy and stick from the wargame rulebook, so I get it, but it does seem to confuse the two products for no good reason. An added concern is that I've seen one gamer on facebook state that he's glad he has multiple copies of the boardgame because he found there aren't quite enough tokens in a single box - in which case, there was probably a better use for the "spare" cardstock space.

I think the spit template is that longer one, so there are two blast templates? Sure, why not ...
Frankly, if all the space on the cardboard would've been used, there could be roughly tripple or quadrupple the number in tokens.

Update regarding the cards.
Received an answer, I will get replacement ASAP. Well, we'll see, what ASAP means for them.

never mind

And it looks like that is Caliver Books' ebay account. So basically a retailer selling in hand copies.

So basically everyone has copies of the game in hand that wants them except for the majority of backers who paid two years ago?

I don't think so. There does not seem to be a big US retail presence yet, all the ones I've seen are coming from the UK. So, hopefully there are folks waiting for copies with cheaper shipping in the US.

(that way I can unload mine when it arrives)

 warboss wrote:
So basically everyone has copies of the game in hand that wants them except for the majority of backers who paid two years ago?

Yup. Retailers and the general public can give Prodos money and get hold of it as much as they like, but those of us who bought a KS pledge have to wait because they already have our money and therefore we don't represent a fresh revenue stream.

How very Palladium of them.

Unfortunate that my first post to Dakka Dakka has to be a negative one.

Prodos poor handling of this and their compete lack of communication has exhausted my patience. I've posted the following to their Facebook pages, but if it disappears due to "technical" issues, I've copied it below. If Prodos do not bother to update backers in a meaningful manner I suggest that backers, either UK based or outside the UK, contact trading standards via the e-mail. It would be helpful if this could be flagged with other backers or websites. I'll happy post outcomes to this thread.

Well Prodos you have exhausted my patience. To give you a fighting chance, let me give you a chance to update your backers with concrete information and clear dead lines. You might also like to explain exactly why the Kickstarter page was suspended, why Kickstarter exclusive box sets were sent to sale before backers and why you are unwilling to maintain any form of communication with backers.

Just to let you know, first thing Friday I will be passing on the full details of this to Warwickshire County Council Trading Standards. Likewise, I will be contacting the licensing department of 20th Century Fox and inform them of the referral of this to trading standards, as they too are involved.

I'll be posting a copy of this to wargaming forums, suggesting that other backers, in the event of no suitable update, to contact the councils trading standard department. Thankfully full details are on their web site.
http://www.warwickshire.gov.uk/tradingstandards

Wont do anything they aren't covered under trading standards as they have sold neither goods nor services . You have invested i a business expansion and unfortunately the outcome hasn't been as forecast and returns are slower than expected . Expect a polite letter from trading standards agency telling you there's nothing they can do.

Bull gak. They HAVE sold product.

And this KS was clearly a pre-order, Prodos treated it that way, promising very specific deliverables for a very clear price. They sold the exact same product via their webstore (selling complete pledge packages.)

feth trying to call it 'investing in their expansion'. That is a load of dung.

Should that be the case, then at least I'll have closed off one avenue and have clarified the situation for further action.

when you pledge in a kickstarter you aren't guaranteed any return for your outlay .the backer can say they plan to produce something and as a thank you for your support they can give you rewards but they dont have too (its in the t&cs ) kickstarter just states that a reasonable effort should be made by the campaign starter to follow through with what the campaign was set up for .
Do i think we will get our box sets ..yes ..am i pissed off its taking so long and others can purchase the final product ? ...yes but you have to remember that from day one prodos said their intention was to produce a box game to bring to retail and thats what they have done !! .

Ok they did say that pledgers would get copies at an earlier date
But they wouldn't be the first to fail in that respect ! A issue ttat was well known about before prodos even started the campaign.

Actually, doesn't KS say you've entered into a 'contract' with the creator?

It certainly used to say that...

Uhm ... I know, it's not totally related, but there are several companies - Cmon, Mantic - that view KS purely as a pre-order system, and it works for them.

Every creator gives specific dates and all but the rarest live up to them.
Specific price, look at the above two companies for example, doing the exact thing.
They did expand, sort of - they even expanded into "how much BS can you tell investores without them having legal ground to sue my ass".

Curnow ... I'm not sure where to put you ...
Unfortunately, I can't C&P the english version, since from my end, KS is now in german and that won't do you no good, but I think to recall that in da Rulz KS says or at least used to say:
Creator must fullfill or reimburse.
Now don't get me wrong, KS gives a crap if either or. They cash their cut and that's that for them.
And even if a creator would reimburse, I really really doubt, KS would hand over their share.

Now, yes, they said boxed game, and they said exclusive KS version. That the first run in the shops would be the KS exclusive version (minus the exclusiveness) wasn't mentioned until months after the campaign and after they already ran late.
We all where promised freebies according to our Levels, up to now, none. I'm not exactly sure, but I think recalling, Facehuggers to be in the box ... well, none.

No, they wouldn't be the first and won't be the last, but as I said many many many times before to them: This isn't a contest to run the worst campaign, stop competing!
What have they done?
Sure, they made Jim, Hans and Pierre happy, that they didn't have to part with their money months and years in advance but on the same breath disgruntled about 1,750 backers - maybe there are some still happy. Not one of them.
Not too sure if it was "Berserker exclusive" or if resin was the only exclusiveness on that, but no matter, people had the chance afterwards for them as well.
There are companies, who run a great campaign - some do a decent job, straight forward, not much to complain - other suck dingelingadong and you probably won't see them again, but they fullfilled - there are those who run out of money and virtually die and those who literally run with the money - and then there are those who seem to really try hard to hit every mine, to kill the ship they're on and have a great time doing so. Intent to kill the fan- and customer base in every possible way.

From what I read, some, by far not all, will never buy any future add-ons. If there ever will be, if Fox doesn't pull the plug on Prodos for this one.

 CURNOW wrote:

Ok they did say that pledgers would get copies at an earlier date

actually, they didn't say that, at least not in the initial kickstarter offering. They implied it, by saying that retail would be available towards the end of 2014 (with kickstarter delivery set for May 2014), but given that those date are estimates by definition (and as we know have turned out to be gross underestimates) they did not specifically state that pledgers would definitely get their copies prior to it going to retail.

That said, they did say an awful lot of things that haven't come to fruition, particularly in respect to exclusivity of a number of components, not just the resin models, but also cards, tokens, and the "deluxe" box itself, plus of course the short story / fluff that should be in the rulebook, but isn't.

I'm amused by a paragraph in their "risks and challenges" section ...

As a team we are highly experienced in logistics and manufacturing and have learnt a lot about expectation and delays having already completed a highly successful Kickstarter campaign for our first project: Warzone Resurrection.

seriously, you couldn't make that up.

biggusdoggus wrote:

As a team we are highly experienced in logistics and manufacturing and have learnt a lot about expectation and delays having already completed a highly successful Kickstarter campaign for our first project: Warzone Resurrection.

seriously, you couldn't make that up.

Why? They have learned (geez, aren't they supposed to be british? At least some? I may fill in too many commas, but dang I can at least spell ... most of the time ...) how to sink expectations, how to max out delays and, most importantly, how to turn your gamehungry customer base into a pack of rabid haters.

 Alpharius wrote:
Actually, doesn't KS say you've entered into a 'contract' with the creator?

It certainly used to say that...

It's a contract, but it's hard to enforce when the creator doesn't deliver. Technically, one could use the courts to compel them to deliver or refund, and there is minimal precedent for this.

yeah,
Trading standards Job is prevent people from cheating people out of money.
I would hope trading standards I think would take a dim view of Prodos.

I know that in America there has been a KS legal case taken to court against project creator who took the money and used it for other things.

Prodos said they would use the money to make copies of the game for KS backers.
But they seem to have taken it to set up a business providing copies of the game to non-backers.

Didn't they blame the recent strike action for delaying their shipments?
Hasn't that cleared?

Thinking about taking legal action and submitting a small claims court claim.

Panic...

Ok now admittedly I am no global law expert, but I would think it's going to cost money to sue or take other legal action, right? How does that make any sense? Even if you won, most likely you break even. I honestly don't think they have enough money to give refunds. I bet they were strapped for cash when warzone didn't have them bringing in enough revenue stream. I mean do what you want, I just can't see the point. I just hope they survive long enough for me to get all my stuff.

In the UK actions via the Small Claims Court do have a fee based on the amount you are claiming. Upto £300 say, it is £25 or £35 depending if you do it on line or via paper copies. There might be other fees depending on how far the case progresses in the courts, but if you win they are reimbursed.

Kickstarter is a grey area legally and yes there are caveats around projects failing and no guarantees. However, this one has funded, the product produced and is on sale. For me, the crux of the matter is the frankly shadey actions of Prodos which have not filled me with confidence. The lack of communications, the constant blaming of third parties or events outside of their conto (which are manageable)l, their apparent inability to actually run a company or manage contractors.

Yes I could sit on my hands and in all likelihood the product will probably arrive. But unfortunately I'm not convinced, with luck I won't need Trading Standards or enforcement, but I'd rather start the process now. I have backed kickstarters which have been delayed, the one main difference was the communication, the clarity and the fact that didn't ignor the backers. Something sadly lacking from Prodos.

I'm rather with Grumpae at this one.
Sure, their methods are sub anything, but, and that's a big but, they started delivering. Not as fast as hoped, not in the anticipated order and all that doesn't make good on their behavior. With busniness standards as these they can't hope to be in the business for too long. But they didn't run with the money.
I'd rather see my stuff than them in court. Though I guess it'll take a long time, until this has all been delivered.

i see no point in pursuing legal action at his point. They have made the product, is is making it to market, and it most definitely is also making it to backers as well. As such, they are meeting their commitment. Sure, they've not handled things well, their communication is poor (hell, it's practically non-existent and when it does happen is chock full of mis-truths and sometimes plain lies) but we are getting our stuff.

You don't have a leg to stand on. Legal action will most certainly lead to that being confirmed, but cost you both time and money in the process.

Better, if you feel really put out by this all, to vote with your feet with respect to being a future Prodos customer, and be sure to tell your friends that you think they should be avoided as well.

Legal action is certainly the last resort, as it comes with a cost and is time consuming.

Again, I'd be happy if I actually saw some evidence, I don't see large numbers of people on forums confirming that they have revived copies. Those that do appear to have picked them up directly. With no regular or coherent updates from Probos we are left in the dark. Their previous actions do not do anything to provide assurances that they are filling their commitments. They have social media channels that they could use, they have the Kickstarter mailing list and if all else fails large forums. There is frankly no excuse for their head in the sand approach.

As for voting with my feet, no worries there. Prodos have lost me as a future direct customer. I might buy their products if it is on a shelf, but I'll not buy direct from them or support their kickstarters.

Anyhow, hopefully we will have an update shortly from them.

Jim, all duly noted and I will not tell you otherwise ...
But another fact is, even with the KS page up, the vast majority of backers didn't participate in any discussions.
So it can and must be assumed, they are thinly spread on forums like BGG, Dakka, Prodos' itself and different FB-Groups that are held by Prodos (and cencored) and some that are not.
Roughly, if nicknames are any indicator, out of all of those backers I see not even a hundred participating in forums - can't say zp about FB, not using it.
Whileas I don't want to say, all of those silent people are appy backers, they are in the grey and for all we know they might have their stuff or don't.

Directly for Prodos (though I doubt you still read here): You showcased your stuff with Battlesystems, look at them as guideline how to handle a KS and customers, not at Defiance or Palladium Books.

No worries Moses Bad. Good point, it might just be the vocal minority and we are at the very end of the mailing list.

While backers are spread across forums, even on the bigger ones and the smaller ones, I see little positive AvP press and certainly very little in the way of painted miniatures, games played etc. Which going on the quality and subject matter I'd have expected to see plenty.

As for the Probos Facebook page, well if you want a case study in how not to manage social media, it's right there.

No way how they might want to turn it, they not just let the ball drop. I once said, they kicked it off to Pluto ... by now I'm aiming for Alpha Centaury.
There are so many ways I told them how to handle things better, they confirmed, followed it for a week or two and then went back to basics which in Prodos' case means silence.
KS or no KS, in the end it was a business transaction and even if not you can't just take peoples money and then flipp the bird.
Roughly 60 to 70% of the neg-press could've been avoided, if they just went honest, even if all they said was "we can't tell much but here is the little we do". Instead they chose to hide or blame other people. If you're doing business with a dinosaur (both in age as in size) like Fox you don't give out timelines and if you do you phrase it around stuff like "we hope we will be able to".
It wasn't all Prodos' fault things went slow, that much I have to give them. Some suit taking weeks to approve a sprue is way beyond ridicolous.
But if they would've taken into account what several backers have told them how to communicate, well, you can imagine.
This campaign started with a buzz, yeah - finally - an AvP game with great minis to show.
But slowely and surely they killed it.
The minis are great, lookwise, though not to assemble - at least the marines are a pain in the butt.
The tiles, while looking good, could've used more variety. Crates on nearly all of them? How hard is it to draw different sets and then smashed in ones of the same for the infested tiles? Blastmarks, scorchmarks, stuff like that to add atmosphere. I nearly would've said spent shells but marine guns don't spill out shells.
The rules will be looked at in some time and I'm sure I can tweak what I don't like.
But all of that, all the positive in these few lines don't and will never make up for the way Prodos handles it's customers.

I may have my two copies, granted - but the bulk of what I ordered is still nowhere to be seen and we've seen boxes shock full with Crushers, for example.
I can not and will not support Prodos in a way making good press for them, when it gets to their management. And how they handle QC issues still remains to be seen. Like I said, they want to send out ASAP. If that's the same ASAP they've done so far ... well, I'm not holding my breath.

Grumpae sums up my thoughts. "I just hope they survive long enough for me to get all my stuff. "

I really don't see much success with action against them, given that goods are now going out. I'd be pretty disappointed if the next wave ended up an asset as Prodos shut their doors due to legal action.

I'm not terribly upset (although it's not great) about retailers getting it first either. They aren't going to get all the KS freebies. So I'm getting more value for money even if I have to wait (a lot) longer. It's a small comfort. While it's disastrous to their backer base, I can see how they may have been forced (a lot of it their own fault) down that route.

Moses mentioned Battle Systems. My box for the Fantasy terrain arrived on Monday. There were a few little hitches in their delivery for a few backers. But they had everything very well planned, so they really were minor. In the middle of shipping, they answered my e-mail in under an hour on a Saturday. Heck, they knew more about the fault than the courier where the fault was.

I was really looking forward to not only these figures, but others in the future. That seems remote enough that I'm not sure Hudson would pick it up on a motion tracker.

I'll be happy if I just get these.

thothkins wrote:


I'm not terribly upset (although it's not great) about retailers getting it first either. They aren't going to get all the KS freebies. So I'm getting more value for money even if I have to wait (a lot) longer. It's a small comfort. While it's disastrous to their backer base, I can see how they may have been forced (a lot of it their own fault) down that route.

Until we see retail prices both on the Prodos webstore and what discounters charge, your 'more value for the money' is really more of an assumption than a fact. The only KS exclusive at this point is the Berserker, and though pre-ordering via KS may have gotten us a better deal, we also had money tied up for well over a year. Freebies like the face huggers were assuredly priced into our pledges. If retail prices are comparable to KS prices, retail customers may well come out ahead. Remember, Prodos sold pledge levels at the same price on their webstore after the KS, and they avoided the KS and (at the time) Amazon payment fees so they netted more per pledge.

thothkins wrote:
Moses mentioned Battle Systems. My box for the Fantasy terrain arrived on Monday. There were a few little hitches in their delivery for a few backers. But they had everything very well planned, so they really were minor. In the middle of shipping, they answered my e-mail in under an hour on a Saturday. Heck, they knew more about the fault than the courier where the fault was.

I was really looking forward to not only these figures, but others in the future. That seems remote enough that I'm not sure Hudson would pick it up on a motion tracker.

I'll be happy if I just get these.

Yeah, if you read in their comments, you know I'm one of those unfortunate chumps to receive someone elses order
But as I said, stuff like that can happen and as long as it gets resolved, I have no beef. OK, so my mail from today hasn't been answered yet, but still I don't think that's reason for concern - dependig on incoming mails, an answer can very well take up to five days or maybe even more.

First time post ob Dakka, being watching the Prodos AVP KS closely on Dakka and other forums, and the Prodos AVP Facebook group page, as I am a backer, in the UK

 Moses Bad wrote:

Whileas I don't want to say, all of those silent people are appy backers, they are in the grey and for all we know they might have their stuff or don't.

I am one of the "grey's", don't have my stuff and am not happy with Prodos

 Grumpae wrote:
I just hope they survive long enough for me to get all my stuff.

That is my stance too. I believe, or hope, we will get the main game, but have my doubts about the rest of the stuff

It is my perseption that Prodos during 2014 were promoting at a lot of shows, but appear to have withdrawn from the circuit during 2015, not wanting any face-to-face contact with KS backers

Also, the Calais dispute was just another excuse they could use, other stuff was getting through and since (I know, received items from the continent for work), just another Prodos smoke screen