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heracyangel wrote:
I noticed today that basically ALL of the Sisters are now Website only. So our FLGS can not get them for us =/

Welcome to pre-2008. They've been direct only longer than I've been back in the game.

I've no been particularly been impressed with seraphim in any role other than taking hits that would ID Celestine.

I played another game of Killteam where nurgle bikers ate my lunch. He shielded them with cultists and I chewed through the cultists but the bikes charged me and I just couldn't hurt them.
In a larger game I'm thinking I'd have to send Celestine after them or target them with my excorcists.

But wow. They were a pain.

Mavnas wrote:
I've no been particularly been impressed with seraphim in any role other than taking hits that would ID Celestine.

They are great at ripping up infantry and delivering Celestine.

In my local meta, there's no infantry that 10 bolter shots can easily dent. Hand flamers cost even more and now I'm having to position in very specific places and then hope for 5s or 6s. Sure, one turn they might shred a tightly packed squad, but that just makes it less likely the unit will be locked in combat during the opponent's shooting phase.

I will traditionally fail at least one charge with Celestine due to my shooting per game. The most ridiculous was when I flew her in so she could be 1" away for some bikers, then promptly flamed 2 and failed the 4" charge.

[rant]Random charge ranges are STUPID.[/rant off]

I've always had great success with my seraphim. I'm thinking of adding more.

Yeah, Celestine seems to die a lot because she fails the charge and gets stuck in the open. I mean usually she makes her points back, but I'm not sure shooting her charge target is a good idea unless that charge was a desperate gamble to begin with. I liked inferno pistols, but their cost and super short range make them a poor choice.

Mavnas wrote:
In my local meta, there's no infantry that 10 bolter shots can easily dent. Hand flamers cost even more and now I'm having to position in very specific places and then hope for 5s or 6s. Sure, one turn they might shred a tightly packed squad, but that just makes it less likely the unit will be locked in combat during the opponent's shooting phase.

I will traditionally fail at least one charge with Celestine due to my shooting per game. The most ridiculous was when I flew her in so she could be 1" away for some bikers, then promptly flamed 2 and failed the 4" charge.

4 Hand Flamers and a Heavy Flamer with Shred will put a dent in any infantry.

Thanks for the responses! I'll see how Seraphim work out for me when I get back. For now, I'm gonna paint a lot of basic Sisters and Special Weapons girls.

I know it's a long shot, but does anyone recognize the maker of these wings? After I checked the other major mini manufacturers, I Google searched for an hour with no luck. Figured someone here might know a thing or two about making some awesome angel conversions, what with the army being all saintly and such.

PM Zefig as that is his picture.

 pretre wrote:

Mavnas wrote:
In my local meta, there's no infantry that 10 bolter shots can easily dent. Hand flamers cost even more and now I'm having to position in very specific places and then hope for 5s or 6s. Sure, one turn they might shred a tightly packed squad, but that just makes it less likely the unit will be locked in combat during the opponent's shooting phase.

I will traditionally fail at least one charge with Celestine due to my shooting per game. The most ridiculous was when I flew her in so she could be 1" away for some bikers, then promptly flamed 2 and failed the 4" charge.

4 Hand Flamers and a Heavy Flamer with Shred will put a dent in any infantry.

Depends on how spaced out they are and what formation. If in a line you're getting 2 unless you hit them lengthwise, in which case successfully murdering everyone in flamer range = failed charge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also for fairness, compare 4 hand flamers to 6 bolt pistols (because the 20 points you save gets you another seraphim if you want).

Mavnas wrote:

 pretre wrote:

Mavnas wrote:
In my local meta, there's no infantry that 10 bolter shots can easily dent. Hand flamers cost even more and now I'm having to position in very specific places and then hope for 5s or 6s. Sure, one turn they might shred a tightly packed squad, but that just makes it less likely the unit will be locked in combat during the opponent's shooting phase.

I will traditionally fail at least one charge with Celestine due to my shooting per game. The most ridiculous was when I flew her in so she could be 1" away for some bikers, then promptly flamed 2 and failed the 4" charge.

4 Hand Flamers and a Heavy Flamer with Shred will put a dent in any infantry.

Depends on how spaced out they are and what formation. If in a line you're getting 2 unless you hit them lengthwise, in which case successfully murdering everyone in flamer range = failed charge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also for fairness, compare 4 hand flamers to 6 bolt pistols (because the 20 points you save gets you another seraphim if you want).

If you need to be in assault, then don't shoot. If you need to murder them, then shoot. It's not tough.

Can you play template placement shennigans so you flame the enemy unit at an angle and burn off the sides rather than the front, so you don't have to charge further?

 SisterSydney wrote:
Can you play template placement shennigans so you flame the enemy unit at an angle and burn off the sides rather than the front, so you don't have to charge further?

In general, yes. You circle around the unit so that you have multiple points that are closest.

Even if you have loose line of your Seraphim facing a loose line of enemy troops, though, couldn't you position the Hand Flamer sisters next to Celestine and then have them shoot away from her, so they fry the sides of the enemy formation but not the ones directly across from Celestine? You'll still be removing models from the front with bolt pistol fire, but the templates you can actually place more precisely.

 SisterSydney wrote:
Even if you have loose line of your Seraphim facing a loose line of enemy troops, though, couldn't you position the Hand Flamer sisters next to Celestine and then have them shoot away from her, so they fry the sides of the enemy formation but not the ones directly across from Celestine? You'll still be removing models from the front with bolt pistol fire, but the templates you can actually place more precisely.

You still remove models from the front from flame templates.

Yeah, but there are situations where I could have flamed better. For example I once had Celestine solo against 4 necron warrior at max spacing in an L. She was next to the long side of the L. The smart thing to do would have been to flame only the furthest warrior then charge finishing the unit. Instead I hit 3, killed two and failed the charge.

There's always opportunities to make better decisions. Against 4 necron warriors, you shouldn't have flamed at all. You'd easily take them all out in hand to hand.

The key, I think is to place her where she can rake the line at an angle without hitting the closest.

I will say the flamers are also good at hitting models from multiple nearby units, like the first time when I played against a tau player who taught me that markerlights can be used to overwatch at better BS. He snap fired two hits from the lights and the 33 firewarrior overwatch shots were made at BS3. When Celestine got up she fried one fire warrior and 4 of the pathfinders allowing me to still charge the fire warriors instead of the 2 surviving pathfinders.

Her flamer is great, I'm not sold on the hand flamers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 pretre wrote:
There's always opportunities to make better decisions. Against 4 necron warriors, you shouldn't have flamed at all. You'd easily take them all out in hand to hand.

Maybe. On his next turn The Lord came over and scythed Celestine in two so I really would have had 6 swings to kill 4 T4 models (only 4/9ths chance on average). In the end I "won" via our tie-breaker of kill points, but had I wiped that unit, the enemy would have lost 5-2 for lack of scoring units.

Don't forget chance of sweeping advance.

 pretre wrote:
PM Zefig as that is his picture.

He doesn't know either... :( He apparently picked it up from a bits bin at GenCon.

Anyways, to the topic at hand (Seraphim/Celestine v. Necrons): How do they fare in CC against Necrons? I would imagine AS initiative (especially Celestine...) would put the Sisters at an advantage, but Necrons are pretty hard to kill... Is it advisable to charge, do what you can to reduce the Necrons, and then run (via Hit and Run)? Or would most of the Seraphim just be dead?

(You have my full permission to treat me as a n00b... I *am* asking some pretty newbish questions XP )

In general you want to assault them to sweep, but it depends on the specific situation.

On the subject of using flamers, remember that the rulebook states that each flame template must be placed so that the most models of the target unit can be hit. Considering this, I find it hard to imagine that a situation where your flamer template doesn't hit the closest model comes up more than once every three games or so. The only situation I can think of is when you have a unit with a broad front but still some three models deep, where you can hit one of the closest models and charge the other(s).

Brother Michael wrote:
On the subject of using flamers, remember that the rulebook states that each flame template must be placed so that the most models of the target unit can be hit. Considering this, I find it hard to imagine that a situation where your flamer template doesn't hit the closest model comes up more than once every three games or so. The only situation I can think of is when you have a unit with a broad front but still some three models deep, where you can hit one of the closest models and charge the other(s).

It' not hard. Imagine:

C

Eeeeee

Where c is Celestine and E is the closest enemy. The most you can hit is a diagonal line not hitting the closest. Given 12" of movement you should be able to place here there.

I've had Celestine and 5 Seraphim (2 hand flamers) easily clear a squad of 5 Termies with storm shields

Shred and the sheer number of dice will take them down, and if close enough you can almost always charge the last guy if he survives...

That sounds unlikely, how many models were you nailing per template and how many were there total?

Each wound is 5/9 to wound, 5/36 to fail for the hand flamers.
Heavy Flamer is 8/9 to wound, 8/54 to fail.

So if you got all 5, you would have 100/36 from hand flamers and 40/54 from Heavy flamers. Which is only 3.51 termies.

6 bolt pistols is 4 hits, 3 Wounds. Another 1/2 dead for 4 total dead.

So, a little bad luck could have them die pretty easy.

Putting a squad in a position where 5 flamer templates can hit 5 of them at a time isn't really a matter of luck. (Unless it's the result of a super unlikely Land Raider explosion no one could have seen coming.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Termites are on 40mm bases?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, I guess a deep strike mishap where you get to place them where you want would also do it.

Mavnas wrote:
Putting a squad in a position where 5 flamer templates can hit 5 of them at a time isn't really a matter of luck. (Unless it's the result of a super unlikely Land Raider explosion no one could have seen coming.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Termites are on 40mm bases?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, I guess a deep strike mishap where you get to place them where you want would also do it.

Yes, they are on 40mm, which makes it a bit easier.