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 kronk wrote:

 Bull0 wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:

 filbert wrote:
I find it very hard to believe that even GW would countenance ditching printed material entirely.

I do find it possible that GW would make an app that tries to get around people screen shotting the 2 useful pages of the digital supplements and spreading it to all your friends.

Yeah, you can take screenshots of an app just as easily though so that doesn't really work

How I would do it...

Loved this. +1

 timetowaste85 wrote:
There's no way they'd be dumb enough to do this. Not everyone has a tablet, iPad, kindle, laptop to bring with them, nobody will lug their desktop, and printing the book out will cost even MORE money and be crappier quality (cost of buying ebook plus printing fees). I have no doubt the game would die within a year if they went full digital.

Tell that pretre

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned in this thread but someone told me they are three months behind in terms of printing, which is why we are seeing digital editions released about three months before the actually book versions of supplements. They SHOULD all be in book form eventually.

It's a bit silly to assume all codices and army books are going to be digital only because we currently have a few digital only supplements.

 Kroothawk wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
There's no way they'd be dumb enough to do this. Not everyone has a tablet, iPad, kindle, laptop to bring with them, nobody will lug their desktop, and printing the book out will cost even MORE money and be crappier quality (cost of buying ebook plus printing fees). I have no doubt the game would die within a year if they went full digital.

Tell that pretre

For the last time, you can read eBooks on your phone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 crandall87 wrote:
I
It's a bit silly to assume all codices and army books are going to be digital only because we currently have a few digital only supplements.

/thread

 crandall87 wrote:
It's a bit silly to assume all codices and army books are going to be digital only because we currently have a few digital only supplements.

Please don't let reasoned argument get in the way of a good rant.

 Bull0 wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
There's no way they'd be dumb enough to do this. Not everyone has a tablet, iPad, kindle, laptop to bring with them, nobody will lug their desktop, and printing the book out will cost even MORE money and be crappier quality (cost of buying ebook plus printing fees). I have no doubt the game would die within a year if they went full digital.

Tell that pretre

For the last time, you can read eBooks on your phone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 crandall87 wrote:
I
It's a bit silly to assume all codices and army books are going to be digital only because we currently have a few digital only supplements.

/thread

Which is still a pain in the ass. You think I'd pay extra to surf Dakka or the Internet on my phone? I pay the smallest data fee possible for everything. The rules in the books are written small enough that I'd have to enlarge it and shift the screen all over the place to read. If that works for you, great. I wouldn't put up with it though. The phone is a terrible place to read rules. The print on Dakka is JUST large enough to fit on my screen while not being a pain and ruining my sight. Go nuts though, Bull0.

Totally, I'm not saying I'd choose reading a codex on my phone over reading a print book either, I'm just saying "Who's going to lug a CRT monitor to a game" isn't a statement worth making because you can read them on your phone so portability isn't an issue.

 crandall87 wrote:
I'm not sure if it's been mentioned in this thread but someone told me they are three months behind in terms of printing, which is why we are seeing digital editions released about three months before the actually book versions of supplements. They SHOULD all be in book form eventually.

It's a bit silly to assume all codices and army books are going to be digital only because we currently have a few digital only supplements.

That's a good point; with digital publication you can have things for sale within 24 hours of the editing being finished, versus 2-3 months for books.

There's also the control and shelf space issue; hardback codices currently take up a lot of space in store, and could easily be replaced by additional big kit boxes if they went digital only. Less shelf space pressure means either more stock or smaller stores. Going digital or LE/Direct only also screws over the independents, something GW seems to jump at.

 Bull0 wrote:
For the last time, you can read eBooks on your phone.

This is my phone, I don't use a mobile.
Now how exactly can I read an ebook on it?

Well played, Kroot.

 Bull0 wrote:
Totally, I'm not saying I'd choose reading a codex on my phone over reading a print book either, I'm just saying "Who's going to lug a CRT monitor to a game" isn't a statement worth making because you can read them on your phone so portability isn't an issue.

I don't have a phone that you can read Ebooks on, and I don't have an Ipad. I'm not going to buy a one of either just so I can read codices either, and reading large swathes of text on a screen gives me a head ache. Which is why I tend to keep my posts short. So yeah, portability is a bit of an issue for me if everything goes digital. Which I don't think it will, because would be suicide. Not even Kirby would do something that ridiculous.

 timetowaste85 wrote:

Which is still a pain in the ass. You think I'd pay extra to surf Dakka or the Internet on my phone? I pay the smallest data fee possible for everything. The rules in the books are written small enough that I'd have to enlarge it and shift the screen all over the place to read. If that works for you, great. I wouldn't put up with it though. The phone is a terrible place to read rules. The print on Dakka is JUST large enough to fit on my screen while not being a pain and ruining my sight. Go nuts though, Bull0.

E-Books don't work like that... They are not web pages. I have read plenty of books on my phone on the bus to work. You can resize them quite well to fit on the screen. It may go a little messy with some rules. I don't know how the have implemented things like stats, but I suspect neither do you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Bull0 wrote:
Totally, I'm not saying I'd choose reading a codex on my phone over reading a print book either, I'm just saying "Who's going to lug a CRT monitor to a game" isn't a statement worth making because you can read them on your phone so portability isn't an issue.

I don't have a phone that you can read Ebooks on, and I don't have an Ipad. I'm not going to buy a one of either just so I can read codices either, and reading large swathes of text on a screen gives me a head ache. Which is why I tend to keep my posts short. So yeah, portability is a bit of an issue for me if everything goes digital. Which I don't think it will, because would be suicide. Not even Kirby would do something that ridiculous.

A computer monitor and e-book reader are completely different. An e-ink e-book reader will not give you a headache.

I don't think it will happen soon, but it will happen eventually. I don't think there is anyone in the publishing industry who seriously sees a long term life for paper as a mainstream media.

What amazes me is that people accuse GW of being out of date. As soon as they do something modern and use modern media to make something they could not do in paper they complain again.

The fact that not everyone in the world has a smartphone doesn't really diminish my point much which was that since you can read eBooks on smartphones, saying that you're required to buy an eReader or tablet to use digital codexes is false. You don't have to; you can use a smartphone, which a huge proportion of the population have. If you don't have a smartphone either, then yeah, you're pretty stuffed.

While I agree a digital move wouls be a horribly bad idea, it's not like they're the only ones? Take a look around wargames vault or similar sometime. As much as i'd PREFER every rulebook ever to be both in print and available, well...

Anyway as much as I agree that it's a stupid move, I will say to remember they wouldn't be the only digital only rules if they did, and burning torches simply because it's GW is a tad biased.

yeah,
So I've skimmed this thread.
I'm not interested in digital codex's at their current price point.

I do however support the idea of digital codex's launching before the printed version to catch all the spelling/points mistakes and rule problems before they hit print.

I've bought every printed codex and all the printed supplement codecs, I like my collection.

I've not bought either the sisters of battle codex or inquisition codex becuase they are digital only. IF GW wants my cash they can print them and I'll buy them.

Panic...

 Bull0 wrote:
The fact that not everyone in the world has a smartphone doesn't really diminish my point much which was that since you can read eBooks on smartphones, saying that you're required to buy an eReader or tablet to use digital codexes is false. You don't have to; you can use a smartphone, which a huge proportion of the population have. If you don't have a smartphone either, then yeah, you're pretty stuffed.

... or you could ask the butler to check the board computer of the Lexus

GW seems to really envy the success of Ex Illis, the first digital only tabletop

 Kroothawk wrote:

 Bull0 wrote:
The fact that not everyone in the world has a smartphone doesn't really diminish my point much which was that since you can read eBooks on smartphones, saying that you're required to buy an eReader or tablet to use digital codexes is false. You don't have to; you can use a smartphone, which a huge proportion of the population have. If you don't have a smartphone either, then yeah, you're pretty stuffed.

... or you could ask the butler to check the board computer of the Lexus

GW seems to really envy the success of Ex Illis, the first digital only tabletop

You're being ridiculous. Smartphones are far more ubiquitous and inexpensive than wargaming materials. It is definitely unusual if you don't have a phone that's capable of reading an eBook. But no you're right, I guess my butler lied to me over kristall and caviar last night

 Bull0 wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:

 Bull0 wrote:
The fact that not everyone in the world has a smartphone doesn't really diminish my point much which was that since you can read eBooks on smartphones, saying that you're required to buy an eReader or tablet to use digital codexes is false. You don't have to; you can use a smartphone, which a huge proportion of the population have. If you don't have a smartphone either, then yeah, you're pretty stuffed.

... or you could ask the butler to check the board computer of the Lexus

GW seems to really envy the success of Ex Illis, the first digital only tabletop

You're being ridiculous. Smartphones are far more ubiquitous and inexpensive than wargaming materials. It is definitely unusual if you don't have a phone that's capable of reading an eBook. But no you're right, I guess my butler lied to me over kristall and caviar last night

You actually eat with the help? Oh my

And honestly there is a small amount of difference there, many of us prefer not using fancy new smart phones for a variety of reasons, cost being only one of them.

I'm sure I could read an ebook on my "smart" phone, but since it's got a 2.5" screen I'd really rather not. Even forums are a painful experience.

If GW is phasing out print rule books, why would they just release Armies of Renown in printed form? It's not a rule book, but it shows commitment to print material. Is it possible they're phase out printed books, yes it is possible, that we're several years away from that in my opinion.

Tazok wrote:
If GW is phasing out print rule books, why would they just release Armies of Renown in printed form? It's not a rule book, but it shows commitment to print material. Is it possible they're phase out printed books, yes it is possible, that we're several years away from that in my opinion.

If GW is phasing out Failcrap, why did they just release Eldar models in that material?

PhantomViper wrote:

Tazok wrote:
If GW is phasing out print rule books, why would they just release Armies of Renown in printed form? It's not a rule book, but it shows commitment to print material. Is it possible they're phase out printed books, yes it is possible, that we're several years away from that in my opinion.

If GW is phasing out Finecast, why did they just release Eldar models in that material?

What new Finecast did they release with the Eldar release?

 pretre wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

Tazok wrote:
If GW is phasing out print rule books, why would they just release Armies of Renown in printed form? It's not a rule book, but it shows commitment to print material. Is it possible they're phase out printed books, yes it is possible, that we're several years away from that in my opinion.

If GW is phasing out Finecast, why did they just release Eldar models in that material?

What new Finecast did they release with the Eldar release?

Illic Nightspear and the Spiritseer were the only Finecast released with Eldar, I think.

Games Workshop are in the difficult business of selling things that don't wear out and which you only need a finite number of. They manage to get some mileage out of churning desirable units and new players, but ultimately their business model is a lot trickier than selling loaves of bread. Nobody has yet (to my knowledge) eaten their riptide and wanted another.

It gets harder every year to keep that business model running. You have to keep growing, have to make new models, have to try and obsolete old ones in a way so sneaky no-one will pick up on it or get too annoyed when they do. It's not easy.

The logical, and perhaps only answer to this (short of an infinitely growing human population who never stop playing), is a subscription model. No, not "model" - model! That's do-able for computer games. It's do-able with services. It's not very easy to do with wargaming. But I bet you a brace of ork boyz that they will try. And they might not do a bad job of it. Do I think the printed codices are going away any time soon? No. But do I foresee a push for e-versions, with on-going updates, subscription programs where you get discounted copies of each new codex, or a monthly sub where you get access to all the codices, or at least all core ones. Integration with online army calculators, pushes to get people to use these for tournaments, special units or scenarios that are "free" to subscribers. And of course all this goes away if you close your membership. You wont pay for that, you say? Of course you will. It will be just a few pounds a month for so much goodness and you'll be able to participate in the Gold Leagues that place you on a national ranking and there will be units that are just too good to want to pass up (Servo Skulls?) that only exist in the online form and those hard-copy books? Well the price of those will go up. Withdraw print copies? Why bother? They'll have you signing up for e-versions voluntarily and arguing on the forums that it's cheaper this way, conveniently forgetting that GW control both sides of the price equation. There will be so many reasons to go digital. When the hard-copies are a month behind the e-release, wont you want to? And the thing is, they'll be legitimately a month behind the e-release! It actually does take a lot of time to organize printing, get them made, sent out, re-printed...

If Games Workshop aren't planning at least half of these things, then they need to contact me right now (PM will do) because I will make them so much money their eyes will bleed just from looking at it.

One year from now, you'll pretty much all be buying digital versions of the products. All those of you saying how you prefer hard copy and would not play if you couldn't get it? That's absolutely fine! You'll just be the ones who buy the e-copy AND the hard copy.

Who wants to take a bet against me on this?

Yeah, I think you're placing way too much faith in GW there.

 pretre wrote:
Yeah, I think you're placing way too much faith in GW there.

Well I have absolute faith in their greed. The only question is whether or not to place faith in their intelligence and business sense.

knas ser wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Yeah, I think you're placing way too much faith in GW there.

Well I have absolute faith in their greed. The only question is whether or not to place faith in their intelligence and business sense.

The answer to which is no.

knas ser wrote:
It gets harder every year to keep that business model running. You have to keep growing, have to make new models, have to try and obsolete old ones in a way so sneaky no-one will pick up on it or get too annoyed when they do. It's not easy.

... or use standard marketing and advertising like most other toy companies do to gain new customers. Crazy, I know, but there you are

knas ser wrote:
Games Workshop are in the difficult business of selling things that don't wear out and which you only need a finite number of. They manage to get some mileage out of churning desirable units and new players, but ultimately their business model is a lot trickier than selling loaves of bread. Nobody has yet (to my knowledge) eaten their riptide and wanted another.

It gets harder every year to keep that business model running. You have to keep growing, have to make new models, have to try and obsolete old ones in a way so sneaky no-one will pick up on it or get too annoyed when they do. It's not easy.

The logical, and perhaps only answer to this (short of an infinitely growing human population who never stop playing), is a subscription model. No, not "model" - model! That's do-able for computer games. It's do-able with services. It's not very easy to do with wargaming. But I bet you a brace of ork boyz that they will try. And they might not do a bad job of it. Do I think the printed codices are going away any time soon? No. But do I foresee a push for e-versions, with on-going updates, subscription programs where you get discounted copies of each new codex, or a monthly sub where you get access to all the codices, or at least all core ones. Integration with online army calculators, pushes to get people to use these for tournaments, special units or scenarios that are "free" to subscribers. And of course all this goes away if you close your membership. You wont pay for that, you say? Of course you will. It will be just a few pounds a month for so much goodness and you'll be able to participate in the Gold Leagues that place you on a national ranking and there will be units that are just too good to want to pass up (Servo Skulls?) that only exist in the online form and those hard-copy books? Well the price of those will go up. Withdraw print copies? Why bother? They'll have you signing up for e-versions voluntarily and arguing on the forums that it's cheaper this way, conveniently forgetting that GW control both sides of the price equation. There will be so many reasons to go digital. When the hard-copies are a month behind the e-release, wont you want to? And the thing is, they'll be legitimately a month behind the e-release! It actually does take a lot of time to organize printing, get them made, sent out, re-printed...

If Games Workshop aren't planning at least half of these things, then they need to contact me right now (PM will do) because I will make them so much money their eyes will bleed just from looking at it.

One year from now, you'll pretty much all be buying digital versions of the products. All those of you saying how you prefer hard copy and would not play if you couldn't get it? That's absolutely fine! You'll just be the ones who buy the e-copy AND the hard copy.

Who wants to take a bet against me on this?

you'd lose that bet. I don't buy digital.

 doc1234 wrote:

And honestly there is a small amount of difference there, many of us prefer not using fancy new smart phones for a variety of reasons, cost being only one of them.

Cost is a reason not to get a smart phone? I've yet to actually buy one, they've all been free with my contract renewals(albeit, I tend to wait until Black Friday to renew ).