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Unit1126PLL wrote: I actually hate the look of that model. It looks like a model knight (literally, like, Templar knight from the late medieval) for children (hence the action-figure-esque changes) that is overscaled for 40k.
so what. and what do grey knights look like? awesome space knights for adults?
500 bucks for a mechwarrior ripoff paperweight. no thanks.
considering the price difference, i would go with the leviathan hands down.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Does anyone know how the Leviathan would compare in scale to Ork Deff Dread's and Stompas? I bet you could make some awesome conversions.
If I may make a suggestion...carve a hole in the head of the Leviathan, and stick an Ork pilot inside with lots of loose wires.. It'll look like it took a direct hit to the face, and the Ork's turned its head into an open-air cockpit.
the 15mm scaled one is about the size of a mega dread ... so a bit taller then a deff dread which is only slightly larger then a dreadnought ...
the one i ordered will be used for my ork army ... or at least that is my plan .. my space wolves may battle them over it ... but the head section is seperate .. so could be magnetized and made to where it can be taken out .. and then an ork cockpit slid in its place ... with maybe a few sections of the armor magnetized as well to swap them out ... or just pick up two since they are so cheap ...
I would allow it. But I hope that if it was going to be used as a permanent proxy then a bit of effort would be put into making it as wide and tall as a normal Warhound. Also I do think the weapons look a bit off, but that is just my opinion.
I also think the Warhound is a better looking model. The giant robot that looks like a man is overdone, in my opinion. It appears to me that the War Hound design deviates from the norm, which is much more appealing to me. But I am now thinking about buying two Leviathan models and looting them for my Orks. Hmmm...cut them in half and make a 4 legged stompa/titan. Sounds like fun.
darkcloak wrote: Nothing like a little elitism to sour the mood hey? Some guy builds a cardboard Titan and that's just fine, but someone else goes out and buys a model to use as proxy and suddenly the world is ending? What happened to the imagination and fun? /tg/'s with neckbeards, that's what! Oh and interent slang, that's making us all stupiderz...
No, actually I hate the cardboard titans as well and don't think they should be allowed.
As for imagination, guess what, that's the reason I hate these proxy models. Apocalypse is supposed to be about the spectacle of an epic battle in the 40k universe, not a line of cardboard proxies fighting a line of random toys with a few unpainted 40k models scattered between them. It completely kills the imagination factor when that kind of stuff is on the table, and makes Apocalypse all about the dice "game". And at that point why bother playing Apocalypse?
You can "fix" GW all you bloody well want, it' threads like this with comments like "if you don't have the money, you don't deserve to play it" that prove what is really broken.
Why do you have to have a titan to play? If you only have $200 to spend then buy something smaller. The world isn't going to end if you don't bring a list full of cheap D-weapons.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/06 04:46:17
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
No, actually I hate the cardboard titans as well and don't think they should be allowed.
So Titans, and anything else that happens to be horrifically expensive, are completely off limits to everyone who cannot realistically afford it? Young kids, people on very tight budgets, people with other competing interests?... Who the hell do you think you are, that you think you can dictate to other people what they should and should not do?
As for imagination, guess what, that's the reason I hate these proxy models.
You hate imagination, and diversity? Because that is what scratch built models and alternative proxies represent.
Apocalypse is supposed to be about the spectacle of an epic battle in the 40k universe,
And it still will be an epic spectacle, with non Official models proxied or houseruled, painted well in a unified theme with the rest of the army. e.g. Leviathan's as Grey Knight Titans. How can you look at a paintstakingly scratch built and painted Emperor Class Titan (or w.e. the very biggest ones are called) that towers a metre above the table, and say that its not epic?
not a line of cardboard proxies
Some scratchbuilt Titan proxies are bloody amazing, especially the MASSIVE 2 metre variety used to represent the biggest of Imperial Titans (for which no official models exist). Are you arguing that people shouldn't have the right to use those massive Titans, simply because GW doesn't make them?
And for that matter, are you against the use of scratch built terrain? Considering the huge range of official GW terrain kits (which are really models in their own right) now available, if your argument is followed to its logical conclusion then everyone must always use only the official terrain in games of 40K and not scratch built terrain or terrain from other manufacturers.
fighting a line of random toys with a few unpainted 40k models scattered between them. It completely kills the imagination factor when that kind of stuff is on the table, and makes Apocalypse all about the dice "game"
.
Then its a good thing we're not talking about and advocating that, isn't it? We're talking about using a cool looking non GW model to represent an also cool but cost prohibitive and extremely difficult to build official GW model.
Yes, due to scale discrepancies it might be appropriate to invent new rules for it instead of proxying, but then again isn't it easier and more likely to be permitted by an opponent to simply proxy a model using existing rules and profiles; than to write your own rules, balance those rules and try to convince your opponent to accept your home made unit?
And at that point why bother playing Apocalypse?
You're projecting your own opinions here and presenting them as objective fact applicable to everybody. Other people do enjoy playing with massive unpainted armies, lined up in long gun lines, rolling buckets of dice and removing swathes of units at once.
I actually agree with you on this, I wouldn't find that much fun either. But the difference is, I don't sneer at other people who do find it fun, and arrogantly proclaim my version of the game and hobby to be objectively better than theirs.
Why do you have to have a titan to play? If you only have $200 to spend then buy something smaller. The world isn't going to end if you don't bring a list full of cheap D-weapons.
Because you want to? Because its fun to use Titans, whether you can afford the official cost prohibitive model or not?
Who the hell are you to dictate that other people don't have the right to use whatever they like in their games? All they need, is the permission and agreement of the opponents they actually play with. Not some arrogant TFG off the internet (who they'll never meet) with an Elitist attitude to everyone and everything else that doesn't fit his own narrow view of the game and hobby.
If you don't like it, fine. Thats your opinion and you're entitled to it. If you every meet an opponent who wants to use such a proxy, you have the right to decline a game with him. But thats all. You've thrown accusations of TFG at other people earlier in this thread, but your comment here is IMO a textbook case
In a friendly game of absolutely anything, whether Warhammer, Chess or Football, you can do whatever the hell you like with your opponents agreement and cooperation. If everyone playing the game (i.e. not including TFG's off the internet) agrees that it'll be fun to make up and use wacky houserules or use unconventional gaming pieces, then what the hell is the problem?
If you were so inclined, you could have an army of Action Men fighting an army of Barbies....
...
Or an army of Lizardmen fighting an army of Cookies.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2013/12/06 07:35:10
2013/12/06 07:33:35
Subject: Re:DreamForge Leviathan as a Warhound Titan
Oh and to the person who stated they would throw the fig on the floor if you were in my store you would never be allowed back to any function event or casual gaming night that is not cool
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Unit1126PLL wrote: I actually hate the look of that model. It looks like a model knight (literally, like, Templar knight from the late medieval) for children (hence the action-figure-esque changes) that is overscaled for 40k.
so what. and what do grey knights look like? awesome space knights for adults?
500 bucks for a mechwarrior ripoff paperweight. no thanks.
considering the price difference, i would go with the leviathan hands down.
Grey Knights looks silly too, IMO. I never liked them.
You think the Warhound is a Mechwarrior ripoff paperweight? You must hate Leman Russ tanks, because they're WWI ripoff paperweights. You must also hate Stormravens, because they're brick ripoff paperweights.
Considering the price difference? I fear statements like that. Considering the price difference, I'd rather use a shoebox than a Baneblade.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: So Titans, and anything else that happens to be horrifically expensive, are completely off limits to everyone who cannot realistically afford it?
Well, unless you want to scratchbuild one as nice as the real thing. But who cares if it's off-limits? If you don't have the awesome titan model then what exactly are you missing? The cheap D-weapons?
Some scratchbuilt Titan proxies are bloody amazing, especially the MASSIVE 2 metre variety used to represent the biggest of Imperial Titans (for which no official models exist). Are you arguing that people shouldn't have the right to use those massive Titans, simply because GW doesn't make them?
Yes, some scratchbuilt titans are. I have no problem with the rare few scratchbuilds that reach the level of the real thing and are built as a challenging modeling project. However, let's be realistic here. The vast majority of "scratchbuilds" are garbage thrown together the night before the game to get more of the biggest guns on the table. At best you might have the occasional model with a few hours of effort, but the reason for making a scratchbuilt titan is still the same: it's cheaper and it takes less effort, so who cares about the quality of the finished product.
In short: it's about quality, not officialness.
Then its a good thing we're not talking about and advocating that, isn't it? We're talking about using a cool looking non GW model to represent an also cool but cost prohibitive and extremely difficult to build official GW model.
No, we're talking about a model that looks nothing like a Warhound being used as a Warhound just because it's a cheap titan-shaped object. It's not much better than just putting a bunch of cheap toy robots from walmart on the table and pretending they're titans.
Yes, due to scale discrepancies it might be appropriate to invent new rules for it instead of proxying, but then again isn't it easier and more likely to be permitted by an opponent to simply proxy a model using existing rules and profiles; than to write your own rules, balance those rules and try to convince your opponent to accept your home made unit?
Or you could just accept that not every model can be used in 40k. You wouldn't show up and insist that your Warmachine models/Star Wars toys/whatever need to get special rules so you can use them in 40k, so why should this thing be any different? If you like the model then have fun building and painting it, but I don't see why it needs 40k rules.
Other people do enjoy playing with massive unpainted armies, lined up in long gun lines, rolling buckets of dice and removing swathes of units at once.
And I have no idea why. Perhaps they're masochists and the usual whips and chains are getting boring? Apocalypse without awesome painted armies is an awful "game".
Who the hell are you to dictate that other people don't have the right to use whatever they like in their games?
I am God. Deal with it.
All they need, is the permission and agreement of the opponents they actually play with.
Yes, and this is a thread asking about opinions on using the Leviathan as a Warhound proxy. If you feel that polling random forum people isn't a productive discussion then feel free to not participate in it.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2013/12/06 09:46:48
Subject: Re:DreamForge Leviathan as a Warhound Titan
At this point I think we're done advancing the conversation when someone proclaims them self God for their opinion and counter - trolling that answer for said opinion.
Suffice to say, it is a matter of choice what you accept as reasonable stand ins to GW equivalents.
Could you for a moment even try to separate the rules from the models? Not everyone can or want to put hundreds/thousands to playing this game when proxying does the same.
Why does it bother you that they are not willing to throw more money at GW?
You've probably seen kids play football (not the game played with the pig skin ellipsoid) with make-do balls. Would you walk to them and tell them they are not allowed to play the game without an official FIFA football?
Peregrine wrote: Yes, and this is a thread asking about opinions on using the Leviathan as a Warhound proxy. If you feel that polling random forum people isn't a productive discussion then feel free to not participate in it.
Then why don't you phrase your opinion AS an opinion, instead of saying "I think it shouldn't be allowed." ?
You said "I don't like the idea and I think no-one else should ever be allowed to do it. Buy the actual model if you want to use the unit, and if its too expensive or you find it too difficult to build then tough, you don't have the right to use it whether you're playing against me or not".
You did not say "I don't like the idea, and I wouldn't agree to it if my opponent asked me but if other people want to do it in their games and their opponents are happy then thats their choice".
(2) is an opinion. (1) Is an arrogant demand that other people follow your wishes whether they're playing with you or not.
WarOne wrote: Suffice to say, it is a matter of choice what you accept as reasonable stand ins to GW equivalents.
As WarOne says. Your choice as to what you accept regarding proxies extends ONLY to the games you yourself are taking part in, or games taking place on premises or at an event you control (a shop, a tournament etc).
Your authority does not extend to other people and the games they play.
I'm going to go against my better judgment here and stick my toe in and ask the following;
Peregrine, would you have any problem with a leviathan as a warhound it it weren't armed with D weapons?
That way you can be sure people are taking it because they like the look of it, not because they are trying to powergame and if they are willing to concede any 'can I or can't I' LoS issues (which I really can't see happening, maybe I've just never seen a real apoc table though) then there shouldn't be a problem right?
Fafnir wrote: Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
The LOS issues are easily solved by agreeing that for the purposes of LOS, the model is always visible. Or agreeing that LOS is only blocked by terrain or models of a specific height (the true height of an actual Warhound).
Base size issues can be solved by just using a base equal to that of an actual Warhound.
A player using a Leviathan could be reasonably expected to restrict his model's weapon choices to the weapons that actually resemble the official Warhound weapons i.e. Vulcan mega bolter, plasma cannon etc (its what I would do. The Leviathan has options for a Vulkan bolter and a nova cannon thing, so I would restrict myself to those weapons).
These solutions might actually end up being a disadvantage for the controlling player, but imposing these sorts of handicaps on yourself will help to make it more palatable for your opponent.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/06 12:59:49
WarOne wrote: Suffice to say, it is a matter of choice what you accept as reasonable stand ins to GW equivalents.
As WarOne says. Your choice as to what you accept regarding proxies extends ONLY to the games you yourself are taking part in, or games taking place on premises or at an event you control (a shop, a tournament etc).
Your authority does not extend to other people and the games they play.
Remembering his view on Forge World use, this is quite at odds with that. Let people use what they want.
Naw wrote: Could you for a moment even try to separate the rules from the models?
This I think defines Peregrine's stance. He refuses to think of a Model and its Unit profile/rules as seperate entities. A GW model, and the official profile/rules written for it are inseperable. One must never be used without the other, and hes offended by the very idea of other people doing so, even if he's not their opponent.
Whereas I consider the two as seperate entities. Linked only in that the rules/profile are officially recomended for that particular model, and most opponents you meet will expect you to use those rules but if I wanted to, I can choose to alternative models and rules provided I have my opponent's permission. Rules and profiles are just tools for us to play the game the way we want to, to have fun the way we want to. Official rules and models are recommended, and streamline games between strangers, but they're not arbitrary rules that must always be followed. If you have your opponents agreement, then you can alter the rules or make them up and use alternative miniatures as you see fit.
I got flak once when I mentioned my intention to use (for LOTR SBG) a Duinhir model and Halbarad Dunadan's profile (heavy armour, bow & spear) to represent a historical character in the LOTR universe (Aranarth, the first Dunedain chieftan), a character for which no model and no rules existed. (The army was an early Third Age Arnor force set after the fall of Fornost). Several people stated they were offended by the very idea, and insisted that I shouldn't be allowed to do it - I should use the official Halbarad model and the official Halbarad rules.
All you're stating is an opinion. You don't like the idea and you wouldn't agree to it if your own opponent wanted to do it, but if other people want to do it then thats their choice. That should be the end of it.
Its a very arrogant attitude - the idea that you have the right to dictate to other people who aren't your opponents, how and with what miniatures and rules they play the game.
Oh, something I forgot to point out in my last post, the base size thing is not a legitimate issue as the Warhound has no base. It is not supplied with one and no one should be under any obligation to mount it on one unless there is some note in the Apoc book telling you to and giving a size.
Fafnir wrote: Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
Why would you bother egging Peregrine on? He gave you his opinion. He wouldn't allow it, ignore the rest if it doesn't apply.
The more I look at it the more I just don't think it's a viable proxy. It is smaller in every way and the guns do make it look like a large action figure.
Not everyone can afford everything. For instance, I can't afford the Titan yet, so I haven't bought it, I tell myself that until I can afford it, I can't use it. Some people look for proxies of it, I just wait until I can afford the real deal.
Again, I'd probably allow it in Apoc but if it were legal for Escalation? Nah.
You don't see da eyes of da Daemon, till him come callin' - King Willy - Predator 2
I'm going to go against my better judgment here and stick my toe in and ask the following;
Peregrine, would you have any problem with a leviathan as a warhound it it weren't armed with D weapons?
That way you can be sure people are taking it because they like the look of it, not because they are trying to powergame and if they are willing to concede any 'can I or can't I' LoS issues (which I really can't see happening, maybe I've just never seen a real apoc table though) then there shouldn't be a problem right?
It is funny that you asked this...because it struck something in me I didn't even know was there.
With how terribly overcosted the Warhound is with it's Vulcan/Flamer combination....I think I'd actually allow a Leviathan be played to represent this style of Warhound simply because its smaller size would help balance the points sink.....wow....odd. Thanks for that one Jono!!
I still don't like the overall idea of fielding lower priced models, despite what you can claim in aesthetics, for 40k. I could go into Toys'r'Us and pick up a plastic model that has guns on it and looks robotic for $20-45 and 'think it looks amazing!'...but it should never be put into Apoc games in my opinion.
I do have to agree with Peregrine on one part. A well done and well representative Scratchbuilt model will be allowed before a Leviathan, if being used as a Warhound. I have allowed one local player who has plasticard Warhounds(x3) and a Reaver done to such quality that across a 12' table of Apoc...you can't even tell it isn't the real thing without doing a close double-take due to the amazing job in painting and modeling. Those are always welcome in my Apoc games. -=Shrug=-
I'll also digress that if you use a Leviathan with house rules, I'd be more open to that. That shows thought, time, and effort that doesn't cost money at all. That would mean you value your model for the sake of the model and not the rules it could provide being counted as a Warhound.
Farseer Faenyin 7,100 pts Yme-Loc Eldar(Apoc Included) / 5,700 pts (Non-Apoc) Record for 6th Edition- Eldar: 25-4-2
Record for 7th Edition -
Eldar: 0-0-0 (Yes, I feel it is that bad)
Battlefleet Gothic: 2,750 pts of Craftworld Eldar
X-wing(Focusing on Imperials): CR90, 6 TIE Fighters, 4 TIE Interceptors, TIE Bomber, TIE Advanced, 4 X-wings, 3 A-wings, 3 B-wings, Y-wing, Z-95
Battletech: Battlion and Command Lance of 3025 Mechs(painted as 21st Rim Worlds)
2013/12/06 16:21:56
Subject: Re:DreamForge Leviathan as a Warhound Titan
It is...interesting...to see the amount of vitriol in this thread. Some of the arguments against the Leviathan are quite valid, but others, not so much:
The price argument just offends me, as it basically boils down to "I won't play you because you didn't pay enough money to play me." And since when is $120 "cheap?"
The height of the model? Is LOS really that much of an issue? How many people play with LOS-blocking terrain that is almost a foot tall and almost as wide? How many such pieces do you play with to make this a genuine problem in actual practice?
Base size? A 5" blast would have to scatter a minimum of 6 inches (after BS adjustments) to miss the Leviathan's base entirely. A potential problem, to be sure, but somewhat minor in actual practice, and easily solved with a bigger base.
Aesthetics? Understandable. I bought mine to use as a Grey Knights Warhound (sometimes, you just gotta break out the really big boys to take out the really big demons) where it visually fits in rather well, but I certainly agree it wouldn't visually fit well within a normal IG force.
Proxy? If you don't approve of proxies in general, that's fine, I understand that.
D-weapons? If your group has problems with them, house rule them to work better. If you can't (organized events, etc.), well, I can understand that argument, as D-weapons are a bit much in the current edition. I plan to field mine with mega bolter and plasma blastgun, anyway.
And, honestly, if GW released some rules for Knights (or if someone could point me in the direction of some fanmade Knight rules that are actually viable and not a fanboy's wetdream), I would most likely use those instead, as I would find it much rather fitting for my Grey Knights Leviathan to still have a big Nemesis sword to swing around at the big demons.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/12/06 16:26:53
"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me." - Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks
I wouldn't. it just does not look like a titan. If you would convert it to the point that it actually looks like a Warhound Titan, than I would have no problems with it. I have no problem with proxying, but it has it's limits.
Of course, I might make an exection if you are considering buying a titan and want to try out the rules, but at that point, you might as well use a plastic bottle.
I also might make an execption if you would have some really awesome fluff about why it looks so different from a normal titan
Also, it does not feel fair against players that spent a year's worth of pocket money to actually field a real titan, but that is a different discussion entirely.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: All you're stating is an opinion. You don't like the idea and you wouldn't agree to it if your own opponent wanted to do it, but if other people want to do it then thats their choice. That should be the end of it.
Its a very arrogant attitude - the idea that you have the right to dictate to other people who aren't your opponents, how and with what miniatures and rules they play the game.
It is indeed his opinion, but isn't that what the OP asked for? People's opinions? You should respect his opinion, even if you disagree with it.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/12/06 16:49:06
Something that really needs to be addressed is the absolutely horrid quality of the craftsmanship in forgeworld titans. I will never buy one simply because I don't want to pay so much for the privilege of receiving something that I'll spend countless hours fixing before I can even begin to have the pleasure of putting it together and painting it. Can I afford one? Yes. I can afford an entire fleet of them but I refuse to throw good money at a bad product. My time is more valuable than that. I love the leviathan because it's hard plastic and a dream to assemble. If FW can match that experience, I have no problem purchasing one of their kits but if my experience with the barracuda I purchased is any measure, no thank you.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/06 17:12:24
Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do
I don't play a lot of Apoc - I do not have the time or patience. But when I do I would certainly allow it. It looks good. We have a pretty laid-back group in our area. Seems to me that Apoc is not a 'highly competitive' environment - but judging from the thread I may be mistaken!
I do Orks and a lot of my stuff is scratchbuilt or kitbashed. I have guns made from tryanid parts, Necron parts, Imperial parts etc. The rule for that seems to be that if it looks GOOD it is usually OK.
I have thought about getting this model just because it would look cool painted up as a giant Ultramarine... but it would also be VERY cool as a Stompa... once it was properly converted/riveted and given a big gob (I really dislike the football-shaped Stompas)
I think there are many guys on this list who would not play against it -- well, it doesn't bother me because I would not play with them. I do this for fun & relaxation.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Are these as tall as a Stompa? Now I am really taken with the idea... Xmas is coming...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/06 18:04:28
Iron_Captain wrote: I wouldn't. it just does not look like a titan. If you would convert it to the point that it actually looks like a Warhound Titan, than I would have no problems with it. I have no problem with proxying, but it has it's limits.
Of course, I might make an exection if you are considering buying a titan and want to try out the rules, but at that point, you might as well use a plastic bottle.
I also might make an execption if you would have some really awesome fluff about why it looks so different from a normal titan
All fair points. If you feel that way, all you have to do is decline a game and let the owner go look for someone to play with who will agree with it.
Also, it does not feel fair against players that spent a year's worth of pocket money to actually field a real titan, but that is a different discussion entirely.
Whether other players get the official FW model is irrelevant. They have the official model for the unit, so its less likely that their opponents will decline a game with them. Someone using an alternative model is more likely to have potential opponents decline a game.
Everybody can go get the Leviathan as an alternative Titan if they want to. Other people choosing to use it is not unfair on people who get the FW model, its got nothing to do with them. If you disagree with it, just decline playing a game and let the owner go look for someone else who will agree.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: All you're stating is an opinion. You don't like the idea and you wouldn't agree to it if your own opponent wanted to do it, but if other people want to do it then thats their choice. That should be the end of it.
Its a very arrogant attitude - the idea that you have the right to dictate to other people who aren't your opponents, how and with what miniatures and rules they play the game.
It is indeed his opinion, but isn't that what the OP asked for? People's opinions? You should respect his opinion, even if you disagree with it.
I would respect his opinion, if he actually stated it as an opinion. All he needs to say is "I don't like it because of X,Y,Z and I wouldn't allow my own opponent to do it but if you want to and you find someone who consents to it then go ahead".
Instead, what hes been saying is " I don't like the idea and I think nobody else should be allowed to do it. You're a TFG who only cares about powergaming and getting as many D Weapons as possible. If you can't afford the official model, then you don't have any right to use the unit".
Thats not stating an opinion, its dictating what other people who aren't his opponents do with their own armies.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/12/06 18:52:14
Lets look at the fluff here. There are a million different imperial worlds. Lets say only one in 200 produces titans (maybe less granted), thats 5000 different worlds spread across the galaxy that produce titans. Now even with imperial decrees that limit technological advances, are you telling me there will be NO variation between the warhounds?
If people wont let you use it - dont play them. Its their loss, as they lose the chance of a fun game.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: So Titans, and anything else that happens to be horrifically expensive, are completely off limits to everyone who cannot realistically afford it?
Well, unless you want to scratchbuild one as nice as the real thing. But who cares if it's off-limits? If you don't have the awesome titan model then what exactly are you missing? The cheap D-weapons?
Ok I think im starting to observe when something ticks here..
Ok Peregrine, you keep on implying that Apoc has tactics in its games by suggesting that people only buy the model to "spam D-Weapons"
Here is apoc down to the core, in the form of a poem:
The thing is, apoc is only a game that is not to be taken seriously and the vast majority of gamers will not be thinking on a tactical scale when it comes to apoc, in fact majority of gamers will be thinking alongside the poem as well, only very few gamers will apply apoc to a competitive sense and an even smaller minority of players will be thinking along the lines you spout out on this thread.
The thing is majority of people just want awesome looking models (not toys as you keep on referring too as no one has even implied that) on the table just shooting stuff, majority of apoc gamers will not instinctively look at apoc and deliberately look for cheese and try to break it like competitive players in 6th ed. 40k do.
To impose this as an objective fact is ludicrous, to impose it as every apoc gamer would buy the leviathan to break cheese is ludicrous.
Most apoc gamers when they buy this will have more of a mindset of "that looks cool" rather than "Im going to smash face more than ever before".
Most apoc players will simply just play it for what it is, which is the poems intention rather than competitive 40k.
So don't try and impose that every gamer who plays apoc and buys the leviathan is a neckbeard/TFG/cardboard spammer/what ever else you have tarred with one brush, apoc gamers to be/etc/etc looking to break apoc by "spamming D-weapons", because they aren't, they just see a cool model that would look cool to build, paint and play on the grounds of apoc.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/06 19:28:20
Except gameplay IS affected. Besides the massive TLOS issues models proxy just need to look like the standard model so that you can easily tell what it is. Apocalypse has enough to keep track of as it is, adding in proxies that don't look anything like the standard model only adds to that confusion.
You're trying to tell us that being slightly smaller but still f-ing massive is affecting gameplay? Have you played APOC games? You're grabbing at straws on this one, tiny knight titan using warhound rules and having obvious stand in guns does not break the game.
*tosses bread to distract Peregrine*
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Lt. Coldfire wrote:Seems to me that you should be refereeing and handing out red cards--like a boss.