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 DarkStarSabre wrote:
But as already mentioned...for the same cost Adrenal Glands do the job better. Seriously. Fleet. Fleeting Carnifexes.

I think some people will need to see it on the tabletop -- AND what can happen when you throw Onslaught into the mix -- to understand.

the shrouded lord wrote:
Hay, in current rules, does a tyrant guard have to be attached to a hive tyrant for the whole game. Or may they part ways.

They can only leave when the Tyrant dies, in which case they gain Rage and tear gak up.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Yikes. Just read the Tervigon page. Hive Mind powers or nothing. No moving/shooting for spawned Termagants. Doesn't sound fun.

Did you catch the best part... Synaptic Backlash was doubled

Yep, now this very expensive and key synapse unit will also kill any guants within it's synapse range when it dies.

Yup, I'm really glad I was wrong!

But how about Mawloc and Burrow - can you choose to return by deepstrike when you enter Ongoing Reserves? The entry in the codex says 'when arriving from Deep Strike Reserve.. Seems it's different from Ongoing Reserves.

It seems as though most people won't be content with a new codex unless it's going to be the best army in the game.

 xttz wrote:

the shrouded lord wrote:
Hay, in current rules, does a tyrant guard have to be attached to a hive tyrant for the whole game. Or may they part ways.

They can only leave when the Tyrant dies, in which case they gain Rage and tear gak up.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Yikes. Just read the Tervigon page. Hive Mind powers or nothing. No moving/shooting for spawned Termagants. Doesn't sound fun.

Did you catch the best part... Synaptic Backlash was doubled

Yep, now this very expensive and key synapse unit will also kill any guants within it's synapse range when it dies.

While the nerfing hurts, and hurts bad, I almost understand it.

It's a Monstrous Creature. That's scoring. That generates MORE scoring units. In an edition where objectives are the win condition 5/6 of the time. The way it was being used in the 5th ed book under 6e rules was an abuse of the psychic powers system - was it a strong build? Of course it was, and that's why so many players flocked to a warp speed, crushing claws, smashing tervigon.

So like i said, I understand why the Tervigon was hit with a nerf bat - it was the carnifex of the edition. Now carnifexes look good again, and Tervigons are helpful (extra scoring, scoring MC, etc) but not auto-take (1 random hive mind power, synaptic backlash, takes 30 gants to make one a troop). I'm all for diversity in lists.


As an aside, i played a 500 point battleforce recon (solo) last night using the spanish army list. It was 25 termagants (15 fleshborer and 10 devourer) Deathleaper, 3 warriors, 2 hive guard, and 3 spore mines (that did nothing all game but only cost 15 pts). I vs'ed a space marine force of a chapter master on a bike (iron hands), 5 bikers, and a tac squad of 6 members.

Deathleaper got pwned by the burning blade in a single challenge of combat (s7 ap2 is no joke!) but sheer weight of fire from hive guard and termagants killed the chapter master through failed saves. Then the remaining bikes got swarmed and the hive guard and warriors picked off tactical marines until it was a table wipe. I was disheartened to see Deathleaper get punked so quickly, but given the chapter master cost 250 points to his 130 it should have been expected. My first impression was the swarmy elements worked as intended, hive guard were okay (not great though) at bs3 -ignoring cover will come in handy vs...stealth suits and conceal guardians, and jinking skimmers too i suppose.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 N.I.B. wrote:
Yup, I'm really glad I was wrong!

But how about Mawloc and Burrow - can you choose to return by deepstrike when you enter Ongoing Reserves? The entry in the codex says 'when arriving from Deep Strike Reserve.. Seems it's different from Ongoing Reserves.

Ongoing reserves means you come on automatically without a roll on the next movement phase. It's what happens when you deep strike mishap and roll "delayed", as well as when a flyer leaves combat airspace. Just because it's ongoing doesnt' mean you can't arrive in a fashion of which your unit is capable.

There is a difference between best and a serious downgrade from the previous book.

I get that. It's not good, the nerf bat probably swung WAY too hard on the tervigon. But it wasn't unexpected, knowing GW's business practices.

Look at it this way - tervigons were SO popular that nobody built the joke that was the Tryannofex. Now that the T-fex is the only 2+ save in the book aside from a random Ymgarl Factor, and 75 points cheaper (base), players who glued all their egg sacs onto their 3-5 tervigons will have to buy 1-3 new Tyranofex kits! $$ Game$ Work$hop.

Listen I'm upset too but not overly so. I'll make the codex work, i love playing Tyranids. What other choice do we have other than switching armies?

Like others have stated, i'm kinda glad it's not tau-good. Fewer bandwagoners to deal with.

 HiveFleetCollossus wrote:
It seems as though most people won't be content with a new codex unless it's going to be the best army in the game.

Ridiculous hyperbole. Why bother posting?

 ruminator wrote:
Now I can't read any Spanish, but from those codex prints there appear to be no min-max numbers of units in the squads, or is it shown in word rather than number form?

It seems I will need that supplement where carnifex become elites as 9 biovores on a skyshield still seems a pretty good deal to me.

It's in word form. "May include up to X additional Ys.... +Z ptz/model

There's a difference between toning a unit down and making it a liability. Synapse is now more important than ever for Nids, with most options being expensive and rarely durable. Now you get triple-punished for losing a Terivgon:
a) Loss of Fearless
b) Instinctive behaviour, potentially resulting in units damaging themselves
c) A sudden 24" diameter of key troop units gets decimated

What other armies receive so many blows for losing a key unit? Surely the death of such a key unit should be punishment in itself?

Thimn wrote:
There is a difference between best and a serious downgrade from the previous book.

I agree! But being a Tyranid player, I'm having trouble seeing how this codex is a downgrade without playing a single match with it. I really don't see the point in being so cynical without a single play-test.

That being said I'm super excited to use Carnifexes again!

Will 5-6X10 naked Termagants be the new core of Troop choices, to free up points and go for all out aggressiveness? Like the minimum Spinegaunts you took in 4th ed?
Because atm I'm not sure I want a single Tervigon with 30 Gant-tax in my lists.

But how about Mawloc and Burrow - can you choose to return by deepstrike when you enter Ongoing Reserves? The entry in the codex says 'when arriving from Deep Strike Reserve.. Seems it's different from Ongoing Reserves.

 tetrisphreak wrote:
Ongoing reserves means you come on automatically without a roll on the next movement phase. It's what happens when you deep strike mishap and roll "delayed", as well as when a flyer leaves combat airspace. Just because it's ongoing doesnt' mean you can't arrive in a fashion of which your unit is capable.

That becomes a problem on turn 5 or later. But you have a couple turns there for which half your mishaps will probably be a benefit.

Especially considering its cheap price, if I was going to run a Mawloc I'd view it as somewhat disposable and play it very aggressively. I'd seek out hard stuff and go for the double hit, and then hope for ongoing reserves so I could rinse and repeat the very next turn.

 N.I.B. wrote:
Will 5-6X10 naked Termagants be the new core of Troop choices, to free up points and go for all out aggressiveness? Like the minimum Spinegaunts you took in 4th ed?
Because atm I'm not sure I want a single Tervigon with 30 Gant-tax in my lists.

I don't know.

I'll say this - fielding a unit of 25 gants last night (with mixed wargear) felt weird. And fresh. I almost felt like an ork player. There is a benefit to a large squad of termagants, in that it's hard to kill 30 fearless models in a single shooting phase - it makes them less likely a target for first blood.

Now is the part where we try to break the game -- Has anybody considered putting a single venomthrope in a bastion? an AV14 LOS blocking structure that has a 5+ cover save, and grants shrouded to any tyranid unit within 6" of the building (for a 2+cover if you're behidn the building itself), placed forward-midfield to advance behind for your hive guard, and until an FAQ nerfs it, the venomthrope can even shoot the quad gun on top from inside.... (Stronghold Assault update to building rules).

 xttz wrote:
There's a difference between toning a unit down and making it a liability. Synapse is now more important than ever for Nids, with most options being expensive and rarely durable. Now you get triple-punished for losing a Terivgon:
a) Loss of Fearless
b) Instinctive behaviour, potentially resulting in units damaging themselves
c) A sudden 24" diameter of key troop units gets decimated

What other armies receive so many blows for losing a key unit? Surely the death of such a key unit should be punishment in itself?

Nid players need to magnetize. Watch a video, pay the 15 cents per magnet, spend the 10 minutes it takes to apply the technique. Not only will you avoid being screwed when the edition/new codex flips everything upside down, but you'll enjoy the flexibility in the meanwhile and have an easier time transporting too. I would be pissed to be sitting on 3-5 tervigons now.

Fortunately, I only have 2 Tervigons. And I don't think they're useless now, they just aren't no-brainers.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
But as already mentioned...for the same cost Adrenal Glands do the job better. Seriously. Fleet. Fleeting Carnifexes.

yeah exactly... people are vastly under esimating how much stuff has fleet now... hordes of hormagaunts and fexes and flying MC's that all charge turn 3 if not turn 2?

yes please

 gorgon wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
But as already mentioned...for the same cost Adrenal Glands do the job better. Seriously. Fleet. Fleeting Carnifexes.

I think some people will need to see it on the tabletop -- AND what can happen when you throw Onslaught into the mix -- to understand.

Onslaught is now 24 inches which is awesome but now you can't pick it and have to go psychic horde to get a good chance of getting it.

Like I said earlier though, double flyrants could still be good, they are ML2, that means 4 rolls for one to get catalyst meaning both get FNP if they stay within 12 of each other.

HQ Choices
Hive Tyrant: -5 PPM; +1BS; Loses BRB powers; lost 2+ armor save option; loses starting Lashwhip/Bonesword (this upgrade now costs 20 points I think)
SwarmLord: +5 PPM; +1BS; +1 Mastery Level -1 psychic power; Loses BRB Powers; no longer forces rerolls of successful ++ saves
Tervigon: +35 PPM; +1 I; -2 Powers; Loses BRB Powers; no longer shares AG/TS; kills larger area of gaunts; spawns gaunts no longer move or charge
Tyranid Prime: +45 PPM

Deathleaper: now HQ from Elites; -10 PPM; gain Infiltrate; Fleshhooks lose Rending
Old One Eye: now HQ from HS; -40 PPM; +1I

Elite Choices
Hive Guard: +5 PPM; -1BS
Lictor: -15 PPM; gain Infiltrate
Pyrovore: -5 PPM; +1W, I, A; No more Spores
Venomthrope: -10 PPM; Gains Shroud instead of default 5+c save; No more Spores
Zoanthrope: -10 PPM; Mastery Level 2; Loses BRB powers; No more Spores; Now Brotherhood of Psykers (not sure if this is a gain or loss, honestly; makes the whole unit very "all or nothing")

Troop Choices
Tyranid Warriors: +/- 0 PPM; No more Spores
Genestealers: +/- 0 PPM; No more Spores
--Broodlord: +/- 0 PPM; Single default power (positive or negative is up for debate I suppose)
Termagants: -1 PPM; can mix weapon types within a unit; No more Spores; cost of TS/AG increased
Hormagaunts: -1 PPM; No more Spores; STs no longer reroll 1s/misses; cost of TS/AG increased
Ripper Swarms: +3 PPM; No longer guaranteed self destruct out of Synapse

Fast Attack
Shrikes: +/- 0 PPM
Harpy: -25 PPM; +1W, A
Gargoyles: +/- 0 PPM
Sky Slasher Swarms: +3 PPM
Raveners: +/- 0 PPM; -1A base, but now get +1A from 2 sets of CCWs STs no longer reroll 1s/misses
Spore Mine Clusters: -5 PPM

Heavy Support
Carnifex: -40 PPM, +1I; -1A; No more Spores
Biovore: -5 PPM; +1W, I, A
Trygon: -10 PPM; -1A base, but now get +1A from 2 sets of CCWs; STs no longer reroll 1s/misses
Trygon Prime: -10 PPM; -1A base, but now get +1A from 2 sets of CCWs; STs no longer reroll 1s/misses
Mawloc: -30 PPM; better From Below rule
Tyranofex: -75! PPM; +1I

Biomorphs
-General-
Adrenal Glands: Grants Fleet along with Furious Charge
Toxin Sacs: No changes
Regeneration: Regain a wound on a 4+ instead of 6(I believe?)

-Melee-
Scything Talons: Grants extra attack with another CC biomorph; AP6 (lolz); No longer reroll 1s/misses
Rending Claws: Grants extra attack with another CC biomorph; AP5
Crushing Claws: Grants extra attack with another CC biomorph; No longer forces I1 for MCs; S+1; Armorbane; AP2 for non MCs; Lost D3 bonus attacks

-Ranged-
Devourer: No longer causes -1 to Ld


edit 1: Updated Swarmlord to +1ML, -1 power known
edit 2: Updated for lack of Spores
edit 3: Points adjustments and effects of some biomorphs.

Mawlocs will take care of any small MSU scoring units on the table pretty well. They also make using small power armoured elite units on foot even harder than before, since you can't really avoid getting whacked by three Mawlocs, and cover and jinks won't help.

That said, how are the lists people are building now going to kill the five Night Scythe crews or a similar amount of Wave Serpent teams? The two new Nid flyers are so laughably poor in comparison to the competitive flyers of the game that they aren't an answer to anything.

I think some of these new Tyranid lists can certainly fight with Tau, since Tau are on foot, so if you don't purchase air units that are only asking to get killed, and instead buy units capable of killing Riptides, you're going to make it a game. Just don't expect your Venomthrope to do anything. Eldar and Necrons on the other hand seem very far ahead due to their playstyles and due to the weaknesses and gaping holes in this codex.

The Shadow in the Warp drops an Eldar Warlock's LD to 5 so even with Grisly Trophies casting protect etc. is going to suck, but the range is only 12" and the Eldar deathstar is mobile to say the least. How many Shadows bubbles will the competitive lists even have? Finally, even if the Eldar unit fails half of its psychic tests in a given turn, can the Tyranids actually kill it? A Hive Tyrant is just going to get smacked around like a bastard step child.

Tyranids will fight aircrons with the same flying tyrants we did a week ago - they're still s6 assault 12, but now BS4 for 30 points cheaper apiece.

Crones get d3+1 auto hits at s8 ignores cover when they vector strike - the croissants don't ignore their (admittedly crappy) 4+ armor. We have better anti-air than before at lower cost, it just isn't Tau Empire Anti-Air that everyone is used to seeing at tournaments.

It's not all doom and gloom. It's just...meh.

 streamdragon wrote:
SwarmLord: +5 PPM; +1BS; -1 Mastery Level; Loses BRB Powers

Swarmlord is +1 Mastery Level actually, he just generates one less power. So he can cast more often, but knows less. Also influences any Deny the Witch rolls.

 gorgon wrote:
Fortunately, I only have 2 Tervigons. And I don't think they're useless now, they just aren't no-brainers.

They're still absolutely the best Troops unit in the entire game.

Does anyone thing thanks to their big points reduction that throwing Regeneration on a Brood of 3 Dakka-Fexes is a good/viable idea?

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Does anyone thing thanks to their big points reduction that throwing Regeneration on a Brood of 3 Dakka-Fexes is a good/viable idea?

I do actually. With movement phase shifting you can always move wounded carnifex models to the back of the brood, helping them stay on the table longer and actually attempt some of their 4+ regeneration rolls.


Speaking of regeneration, hey! You got some Necrons in my Tryanids!

Regen on those Fexstars is something I'm absolutely going to try.

No reason to take a single pair of Scytals on Fexen any more though. My Stranglethorn Cannon/Scytal Fexes will need to be redone into Devourer/Stranglethorn or Scytal/Crushing claw fexen.

Sadly, devourer arms are in short supply....hrmmm

 tetrisphreak wrote:
Tyranids will fight aircrons with the same flying tyrants we did a week ago - they're still s6 assault 12, but now BS4 for 30 points cheaper apiece.

Crones get d3+1 auto hits at s8 ignores cover when they vector strike - the croissants don't ignore their (admittedly crappy) 4+ armor. We have better anti-air than before at lower cost, it just isn't Tau Empire Anti-Air that everyone is used to seeing at tournaments.

It's not all doom and gloom. It's just...meh.

A week ago Tyranids weren't relevant. Noone who actually goes to tournaments cares how they used to fight Aircrons, because if you actually ended up playings vs. Tyranids you always ended up winning. That's why I should've formulated my question better. My point was, how are the new Tyranids going to succesfully deal with Aircrons and the other armies that I mentioned? So of course, if the methods haven't changed, it means the methods still blow, and Cruddy & Co failed to address these issues just like they failed to address the hundred other issues that have plagued certain units or armies for a decade.

Dunno. What would you rather have? 4 Regenerating Carnifexes, or 5 Non-regenerating fexes?

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
Fortunately, I only have 2 Tervigons. And I don't think they're useless now, they just aren't no-brainers.

They're still absolutely the best Troops unit in the entire game.

So long as you don't rely on the troops units required to unlock them or that they produce.

Hmm, I'm leaning now more toward Warriors - since the meta has shifted to S7 multishots...and the cost is between 6 T6 wounds or 18 T4 wounds. Warriors may have the way forward here. I think I'm happy with my one Tervigon (no more stand in Hierodules as Tervigons either) as an alternative second HQ when the fancy takes me.