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ScootyPuffJunior wrote: The Empire Strikes Back is by far the best of the series and is my all time favorite movie.
Now, I understand that it is cool to be cynical about the prequels and it is fair to say that there is plenty to complain about (midi-chlorians, Jar-Jar Binks, battle droids, Hayden Christensen's acting, "Noooooooo!," "Hold me, Ani. Hold me like you did on the shore of the lake on Naboo.") but I appreciate all of the films because of my love of the overall mythology of the Star Wars Universe. However, it is also fair to say the prequels do a lot right as well: Obi-Wan/Qui-Gon vs. Darth Maul, the Battle of Geonosis, Anakin/Obi-Wan/Yoda vs. Dooku, the Battle of Coruscant, Anakin vs Dooku: Round 2, Order 66, and Obi-Wan vs. Anakin.
Obi-Wan/Qui-Gon vs. Darth Maul = Three characters with no to little backstory who have ether sat on a ship for most of the film or complained, made incredibly poor decisions, or have no character or personality what so ever except for the most basic of traits fighting in a perfect battle with no flaws or emotion, which leads to no further character development and limited impact on the story of all 3 films as a whole.
Battle of Geonosis = 12 minutes of clustered frames which leads to no real plot development, has little impact on the story, and was made simply to distract people from the fact that the film was a sloppy, rushed job with a lacking plot. Has no real effect on the characters or the rest of the series.
Dooku vs Yoda =. Big name actor who plays someone with no personality who is introduced late into the 2nd film as the big bad and is killed early in the second film which acts as the only development of a character in the entire film. Pointless attempt to rip off episode five is made, before Yoda comes in and jumps around like a monkey on heroine swinging around a glow stick, ruining yoda's image as a wise teacher in a shallow attempt to make toys.
Corusunt = 15 mins of clustered frames with no impact on the story or characters. Introduces another pointless character to sell toys and comes off like a scene from Transformers.
Dooku vs Anikan = removal of previous big bad to sell toys of the new big bad. Minimal character development with Anikan continuing to act like a pot head as Palpatine continues to act suspicious. Anikan has to be flat out told by Palpatine that he's a sith lord despite the sheer obviousness of this.
Order 66 = 7 mins of multi-coloured aliens being shot by clone troopers. Has minimal plot development and relays on a non-existant emotional connection to the audience with random actors we've seen in the background, who are obviously awaiting pay checks and wishing they'd taken up careers working in a toll booth.
Obi-spank vs Ambient illusion = 20 mins of a pointless fight which attempts to be dark and gritty, but falls flat as Hayden Christianson ruins the shot as he screams as George Lucas for ruining any chance of a future career, which is somehow kept in the actual cut for some reason. Also features the death of random wom- I mean important plot character who did nothing and was there because big name.
We get it, dude... Your cynicism doesn't allow to enjoy the prequels for what they are. I'm sorry you don't care (interestingly enough, you seem to care a lot about how much you don't care) about any of the characters, even though most of whom have had stories in EU material. You seem to forget that when the original movies came out, every single character was new, no one had any real back story, and there was no reason to care about anyone. You seem to take exception by characters acting "stupid" but I have some sad news for you: if fictional characters in a fictional universe knew as much as an omnisipent outside observer, fiction would be pretty boring.
You could pick apart the Original Trilogy as well: why didn't Han just shoot down Vader in the trench run? Why didn't Obi-Wan tell Luke the truth about Vader and Palpatine? Why didn't the Star Destroyer just shoot down the non-inconspicuous escape pod jettisoned from Tantive IV? Why was Luke (or the viewer) so sad about Obi-Wan's death, who he had only known for a day? Why did Leia make out with her brother? If Vader is so strong with the Force, how come he couldn't figure out Luke and Leia were his children? Why did Luke retain his surname if he was supposed to be in hiding? Why did the Death Star (which can move) have to orbit Yavin before destroying it's moon instead of just blowing it up, thereby setting up an entirely useless space battle? Why would you build a massive space station super weapon whose only weakness is a shaft leading directly to it's core? Carrie Fisher's complete lack of emotion when her home planet, and by extension all of family and loved ones, are killed who the Empire destroys Alderaan. The Battle of Yavin 4 is moronic: a space station with thousands of fighters stationed on it and hundreds of thousands of laser batteries couldn't stop 5 X-Wings and 2 Y-Wings? Ewoks?
Really I could go on tearing apart what I love, but I'd rather just sit and enjoy them for what they are: movies
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/12/08 11:06:32
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
A New Hope
The Empire Strikes Back
Return of the Jedi
Ewoks: Battle for Endor
Revenge of the Sith
whatever the Hell episode II was called
The Star Wars Christmas Special
Phantom Menace
Straight up, A New Hope is the only film that can stand on its own merits out of context of all the others. Also, it's a beautifully telling of the classical Hero's Journey.
I don't remember there being any new decent characters being added.
I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not so I'll just answer: Darth Maul and Qui Gon Jin.
Neither were given the development they deserved, but of all the characters introduced in the prequels those two had the most (wasted) potential. A villain people like to watch, to the point of finding an excuse to bring him back to life in the animated series with only half a body, and an iconoclast Jedi Master that stood apart from the entrenched Jedi Council.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Not to mention he was freaking Liam Neeson! Guy's voice is like sonic sex.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Grey Templar wrote: Not to mention he was freaking Liam Neeson! Guy's voice is like sonic sex.
And they really screwed up with Mace Windu (or whatever the name of Sam Jackson's character was)... In any fight, he should have had at least one pistol and a good "melon farmers" line in there somewhere. Granted, that means they lose the rating that they wanted, but hey... more money because of Sam Jackson's Melon Farmer line.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
At the very least they could have given him a decent death.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Yeah, sorry, episode 1 is just straight up a bad movie. I mean, this poll is based on opinions, so you can like episode 1 if you want, but it is just a poorly constructed piece of garbage. It is simply rife with plot holes, nonsensical character behaviors, and terrible technical details.
I mean seriously, how can anyone think it is a good idea to have four endings, all happening at once, with wildly different emotional tones?
Plus midichlorians.
Plus Yoda should have never picked up a lightsaber. Ever.
The one thing I will say for the prequel trilogy was some of the imagery was straight out of my childhood imagination. I always wanted to see a ton of jedi fighting on screen at once. Of course, I wanted it to be a big Sith vs Jedi battle.
This kind of takes me back, but I must be a lot older or else sheltered as a child, because I remember a decade or so where "Dark Lord of the Sith" was just some mysterious title that Darth Vader used in the novelization for The Empire Strikes Back. I remember wondering if there were more guys like Vader, since he was a Dark Lord of the Sith. I also remember when the Force was more mysterious than a mutant superpower, and there was no reason not to believe that anyone could learn to use it if they trained enough. I was in high school when Zahn mistakenly revealed that the Clone Wars may have involved Clone Masters. Unfortunately for me, my imagination gave the Force more impact than adding the "wires" to "wire-fu dance-fights".
I don't think it's cynicism exactly to say that the prequels lack the emotional impact, innovation and story-telling qualities of the original trilogy. The prequels only managed to find an audience at all (let alone make $billions$) due to their brand name--otherwise they'd be remembered less fondly than Chronicles of Riddick or John Carter.
I don't remember there being any new decent characters being added.
I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not so I'll just answer: Darth Maul and Qui Gon Jin.
Neither were given the development they deserved, but of all the characters introduced in the prequels those two had the most (wasted) potential. A villain people like to watch, to the point of finding an excuse to bring him back to life in the animated series with only half a body, and an iconoclast Jedi Master that stood apart from the entrenched Jedi Council.
I guess but I found both characters bland and uninteresting, also Qui Gon Jin seems quite inconsistent to me he supposed to be a mentor type character for obi wan yet he's prone to irrational behaviour and has questionable morals (uses mind control to rig gambling results).
Cheesecat wrote: I guess but I found both characters bland and uninteresting
Well, the entire prequel trilogy could be described as 'bland and uninteresting', which makes it no surprise they also were. They were mishandled, as was the whole thing, but of all the characters introduced they had the most potential to be interesting and engaging, but they wasted that potential. That is why I said none of the characters were given thee development they deserved, not that they were well developed. They could have been cool characters, but they weren't.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: The Empire Strikes Back is by far the best of the series and is my all time favorite movie.
Now, I understand that it is cool to be cynical about the prequels and it is fair to say that there is plenty to complain about (midi-chlorians, Jar-Jar Binks, battle droids, Hayden Christensen's acting, "Noooooooo!," "Hold me, Ani. Hold me like you did on the shore of the lake on Naboo.") but I appreciate all of the films because of my love of the overall mythology of the Star Wars Universe. However, it is also fair to say the prequels do a lot right as well: Obi-Wan/Qui-Gon vs. Darth Maul, the Battle of Geonosis, Anakin/Obi-Wan/Yoda vs. Dooku, the Battle of Coruscant, Anakin vs Dooku: Round 2, Order 66, and Obi-Wan vs. Anakin.
Obi-Wan/Qui-Gon vs. Darth Maul = Three characters with no to little backstory who have ether sat on a ship for most of the film or complained, made incredibly poor decisions, or have no character or personality what so ever except for the most basic of traits fighting in a perfect battle with no flaws or emotion, which leads to no further character development and limited impact on the story of all 3 films as a whole.
Battle of Geonosis = 12 minutes of clustered frames which leads to no real plot development, has little impact on the story, and was made simply to distract people from the fact that the film was a sloppy, rushed job with a lacking plot. Has no real effect on the characters or the rest of the series.
Dooku vs Yoda =. Big name actor who plays someone with no personality who is introduced late into the 2nd film as the big bad and is killed early in the second film which acts as the only development of a character in the entire film. Pointless attempt to rip off episode five is made, before Yoda comes in and jumps around like a monkey on heroine swinging around a glow stick, ruining yoda's image as a wise teacher in a shallow attempt to make toys.
Corusunt = 15 mins of clustered frames with no impact on the story or characters. Introduces another pointless character to sell toys and comes off like a scene from Transformers.
Dooku vs Anikan = removal of previous big bad to sell toys of the new big bad. Minimal character development with Anikan continuing to act like a pot head as Palpatine continues to act suspicious. Anikan has to be flat out told by Palpatine that he's a sith lord despite the sheer obviousness of this.
Order 66 = 7 mins of multi-coloured aliens being shot by clone troopers. Has minimal plot development and relays on a non-existant emotional connection to the audience with random actors we've seen in the background, who are obviously awaiting pay checks and wishing they'd taken up careers working in a toll booth.
Obi-spank vs Ambient illusion = 20 mins of a pointless fight which attempts to be dark and gritty, but falls flat as Hayden Christianson ruins the shot as he screams as George Lucas for ruining any chance of a future career, which is somehow kept in the actual cut for some reason. Also features the death of random wom- I mean important plot character who did nothing and was there because big name.
We get it, dude... Your cynicism doesn't allow to enjoy the prequels for what they are. I'm sorry you don't care (interestingly enough, you seem to care a lot about how much you don't care) about any of the characters, even though most of whom have had stories in EU material. You seem to forget that when the original movies came out, every single character was new, no one had any real back story, and there was no reason to care about anyone. You seem to take exception by characters acting "stupid" but I have some sad news for you: if fictional characters in a fictional universe knew as much as an omnisipent outside observer, fiction would be pretty boring.
You could pick apart the Original Trilogy as well: why didn't Han just shoot down Vader in the trench run? Why didn't Obi-Wan tell Luke the truth about Vader and Palpatine? Why didn't the Star Destroyer just shoot down the non-inconspicuous escape pod jettisoned from Tantive IV? Why was Luke (or the viewer) so sad about Obi-Wan's death, who he had only known for a day? Why did Leia make out with her brother? If Vader is so strong with the Force, how come he couldn't figure out Luke and Leia were his children? Why did Luke retain his surname if he was supposed to be in hiding? Why did the Death Star (which can move) have to orbit Yavin before destroying it's moon instead of just blowing it up, thereby setting up an entirely useless space battle? Why would you build a massive space station super weapon whose only weakness is a shaft leading directly to it's core? Carrie Fisher's complete lack of emotion when her home planet, and by extension all of family and loved ones, are killed who the Empire destroys Alderaan. The Battle of Yavin 4 is moronic: a space station with thousands of fighters stationed on it and hundreds of thoughts laser batteries couldn't stop 5 X-Wings and 2 Y-Wings? Ewoks?
Really I could go on tearing apart what I love, but I'd rather just sit and enjoy them for what they are: movies
See, I'm not here for the expanded universe, I'm here for the movie. It's difficult to enjoy something that is lacking in all of the major components to make a good movie, which the prequels are. The prequels lack any real plot, character development or emotion, which the originals do. The original's have numerous faults, but they still possess good characters, an interesting plot and development. It's got it's flaws but it's good bits outnumber them 10 to 1. With the prequels, theres literally nothing to enjoy. It's just special effects cluttering a frame, because Lucas obviously can't write a good story, and refuses to take any outside input (which is obvious from the behind the scenes DVD's and all that noise). Of course, you could, instead of attacking my argument and refuting my points, go and just call me cynical and attack something else instead but....oh wait's thats what you did.
Little orphans in the snow
With nowhere to call a home
Start their singing, singing
Waiting through the summertime
To thaw your hearts in wintertime
That's why they're singing, singing
Imposter101 wrote: See, I'm not here for the expanded universe, I'm here for the movie. It's difficult to enjoy something that is lacking in all of the major components to make a good movie, which the prequels are. The prequels lack any real plot, character development or emotion, which the originals do. The original's have numerous faults, but they still possess good characters, an interesting plot and development. It's got it's flaws but it's good bits outnumber them 10 to 1. With the prequels, theres literally nothing to enjoy. It's just special effects cluttering a frame, because Lucas obviously can't write a good story, and refuses to take any outside input (which is obvious from the behind the scenes DVD's and all that noise). Of course, you could, instead of attacking my argument and refuting my points, go and just call me cynical and attack something else instead but....oh wait's thats what you did.
Again, I'm attacking you argument as much as proving it can made against the original trilogy as well. I seem to think you are misunderstanding me here; I am not praising the prequels as visionary filmmaking. I don't think they are great, I can just appreciate them for what they are. You seem to forget that the three original movies all opened to mixed (at best) reviews, even The Empire Strikes Back. Now, after all this time has passed, everyone loves that movie.
I offered bits and pieces from the prequels that I enjoyed and you pretentiously picked them apart with. I'm not going to waste my time trying to refute your statements, they're your opinion and I'm not going to change it. You haven't said any specific scenes you enjoy in the original trilogy so feel free to do so; I'd be happy to offer a counterpoint as to why they are dumb and useless.
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
Imposter101 wrote: See, I'm not here for the expanded universe, I'm here for the movie. It's difficult to enjoy something that is lacking in all of the major components to make a good movie, which the prequels are. The prequels lack any real plot, character development or emotion, which the originals do. The original's have numerous faults, but they still possess good characters, an interesting plot and development. It's got it's flaws but it's good bits outnumber them 10 to 1. With the prequels, theres literally nothing to enjoy. It's just special effects cluttering a frame, because Lucas obviously can't write a good story, and refuses to take any outside input (which is obvious from the behind the scenes DVD's and all that noise). Of course, you could, instead of attacking my argument and refuting my points, go and just call me cynical and attack something else instead but....oh wait's thats what you did.
Again, I'm attacking you argument as much as proving it can made against the original trilogy as well. I seem to think you are misunderstanding me here; I am not praising the prequels as visionary filmmaking. I don't think they are great, I can just appreciate them for what they are. You seem to forget that the three original movies all opened to mixed (at best) reviews, even The Empire Strikes Back. Now, after all this time has passed, everyone loves that movie.
I offered bits and pieces from the prequels that I enjoyed and you pretentiously picked them apart with. I'm not going to waste my time trying to refute your statements, they're your opinion and I'm not going to change it. You haven't said any specific scenes you enjoy in the original trilogy so feel free to do so; I'd be happy to offer a counterpoint as to why they are dumb and useless.
Cool, okay then;
Luke's encounter with Yoda, Vader and Luke's first fight, Han and the others in the Carbon Freezing chamber, Most Leia and Han scenes throughout the fifth film, Vader, Boba and the Storm Troopers ambush at Cloud City and Vader's unmasking. Also, the bit where you see the back of Vader's head.
Go on then.
Little orphans in the snow
With nowhere to call a home
Start their singing, singing
Waiting through the summertime
To thaw your hearts in wintertime
That's why they're singing, singing
Luke's encounter with Yoda, Vader and Luke's first fight, Han and the others in the Carbon Freezing chamber, Most Leia and Han scenes throughout the fifth film, Vader, Boba and the Storm Troopers ambush at Cloud City and Vader's unmasking. Also, the bit where you see the back of Vader's head.
Go on then.
Luke's encounter with Yoda: Yoda gives horrible advice by allowing a Jedi-in-training free reign to try and stop one of the most powerful Force-users in the Galaxy. Yoda is still shown to be a capable Jedi, why didn't he go help Luke and the Rebellion? Also, he tells Luke that not completing his training will doom his friends, which it totally doesn't... at all.
Luke vs. Vader, Round 1: Luke has almost no experience with lightsabers (brief training aboard the Millennium Falcon in the first movie, cutting the arm off of a Wampa, and slicing open the belly of an AT-AT during the Battle of Hoth) and has had, at most a couple of days of Jedi training with Yoda, yet we are expected to believe that he can hold his own against one of the most renowned swordsmen in the Galaxy? Not to mention Vader's knowledge of the Force is orders of magnitude greater than Luke's. But if they didn't fight, there would be no big "No... I am your father!" reveal, which makes no real sense considering George Lucas pulled out of his ass in between A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back in an attempt to shock the audience.
Han being frozen in carbonite: Completely useless plot driving device. He was already captured and interrogated by Vader and there was no reason freeze him (or Luke, for that matter) in carbonite. He could have just as easily been turned over to Boba Fett who could have been on his way back to Jabba to collect his reward. Instead, we needed to add drama by making the audience think they're favorite character might die what is pretty much an industrial accident.
Han and Leia's relationship: Standard "she falls for the guy you don't bring home because I'm too uptight" trope while he plays hard to get because he's a rough-around-the-edges-with-a-heart-of-gold outlaw. The best bit of dialog between them ("I love you..." "I know.") was improvised by Harrison Ford, which I admit, is pretty cool.
Could City ambush: Stupid and unlikely. There is no way Vader and his stormtroopers or Fett in Slave I could have beaten the Millennium Falcon to Bespin, since it is the fastest ship in the Galaxy. Also, how would Fett have know where the Falcon was headed when it entered hyperspace en route to Bespin? Furthermore, after the ambush, why did Vader just disable the hyperdive and not the entire ship, thereby making any attempt to flee Cloud City in the Falcon impossible? Why would Leia, Chewie, and the droids (and the viewers) trust Lando after he just sold them out to the Empire? Easy, we needed something to add tension and move the plot along.
Vader in his chambers: Completely unnecessary. The chamber opened before his life support helmet was attached to his head. Why? So we can see he is a pale, possibly scary looking, man underneath? It adds absolutely nothing to the plot or to Vader's character development.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/12/08 13:49:31
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
Luke's encounter with Yoda, Vader and Luke's first fight, Han and the others in the Carbon Freezing chamber, Most Leia and Han scenes throughout the fifth film, Vader, Boba and the Storm Troopers ambush at Cloud City and Vader's unmasking. Also, the bit where you see the back of Vader's head.
Go on then.
Luke's encounter with Yoda: Yoda gives horrible advice by allowing a Jedi-in-training free reign to try and stop one of the most powerful Force-users in the Galaxy. Yoda is still shown to be a capable Jedi, why didn't he go help Luke and the Rebellion? Also, he tells Luke that not completing his training will doom his friends, which it totally doesn't... at all.
Luke vs. Vader, Round 1: Luke has almost no experience with lightsabers (brief training aboard the Millennium Falcon in the first movie, cutting the arm off of a Wampa, and slicing open the belly of an AT-AT during the Battle of Hoth) and has had, at most a couple of days of Jedi training with Yoda, yet we are expected to believe that he can hold his own against one of the most renowned swordsmen in the Galaxy? Not to mention Vader's knowledge of the Force is orders of magnitude greater than Luke's. But if they didn't fight, there would be no big "No... I am your father!" reveal, which makes no real sense considering George Lucas pulled out of his ass in between A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back in an attempt to shock the audience.
Han being frozen in carbonite: Completely useless plot driving device. He was already captured and interrogated by Vader and there was no reason freeze him (or Luke, for that matter) in carbonite. He could have just as easily been turned over to Boba Fett who could have been on his way back to Jabba to collect his reward. Instead, we needed to add drama by making the audience think they're favorite character might die what is pretty much an industrial accident.
Han and Leia's relationship: Standard "she falls for the guy you don't bring home because I'm too uptight" trope while he plays hard to get because he's a rough-around-the-edges-with-a-heart-of-gold outlaw. The best bit of dialog between them ("I love you..." "I know.") was improvised by Harrison Ford, which I admit, is pretty cool.
Could City ambush: Stupid and unlikely. There is no way Vader and his stormtroopers or Fett in Slave I could have beaten the Millennium Falcon to Bespin, since it is the fastest ship in the Galaxy. Also, how would Fett have know where the Falcon was headed when it entered hyperspace en route to Bespin? Furthermore, after the ambush, why did Vader just disable the hyperdive and not the entire ship, thereby making any attempt to flee Cloud City in the Falcon impossible? Why would Leia, Chewie, and the droids (and the viewers) trust Lando after he just sold them out to the Empire? Easy, we needed something to add tension and move the plot along.
Vader in his chambers: Completely unnecessary. The chamber opened before his life support helmet was attached to his head. Why? So we can see he is a pale, possibly scary looking, man underneath? It adds absolutely nothing to the plot or to Vader's character development.
Yoda/Luke: Yoda doesn't see it as his place to do this, he's a teacher, not a fighter. He wishes to allow Luke to make his own mistakes, so that he will learn from them and grow stronger, and it could be that facing vader now and learning of his abilities and who vader is, would help him on his way to become a Jedi. Here we learn about the force, and watch as Luke grows as a character and we as an audience are taught about the nature of the force.
Luke/Vader: Luke isn't experienced, which makes Vader all the more threatening and dangerous. He's come here with the intention to save his friends, and isn't fully prepared. Vader doesn't kill him, or try because Vader is able to lower him to his lowest level, to break him down in an attempt to bring him over to the Dark Side. Luke and Vader's relationship is fleshed out here and becomes a massive plot point in the rest of the series, and while it might of been "pulled out of lucas's ass", it creates emotion between the characters that isn't "here is big bag, he is big bad".
Han carbonate/Leia: Vader was testing the machine to see if he could capture Luke to take him to the Emperor, but didn't know if it would kill him or not, and thus had to use Han as a test subject (which is successful, would pay Boba Fett his reward if ether outcome occurred). Han and Leia's relationship might not be original, but it's far more real than anything in the Prequels, and Leia's at a point where she doesn't know if she'll ever see Han again. It creates atmosphere and character development, and further drives the plot in the next movie.
Cloud City ambush: "Fastest ship in the galaxy" was boasting by Han, not fact. Fett had also been tracking the Falcon for some time, and it could be concluded that he has some form of tracking device available. Why didn't he disable the hyperdrive? Well, you answer your own question. Again this logic that "because the originals have flaws, it's okay the prequels do", is pretty stupid. Again, I don't understand the logic in this but it doesn't make the scene any less poor for me because it's actually a shock that Lando would betray them. Also, in this situation, Lando is pretty much their only way of escape, and as he said they were forced to do it. Also, why would Lando betray them again if he was just gonna betray them 10 mins later?
Vader's chamber: We are shown that Vader is human, and shown him in a position of weakness. Vader's character (which other than "I'm mean") is lightly added too in an interesting way that doesn't take up an entire scene, but is worked into another, by adding to the character through a simple visual.
Little orphans in the snow
With nowhere to call a home
Start their singing, singing
Waiting through the summertime
To thaw your hearts in wintertime
That's why they're singing, singing
I beg to differ. The only thing the Phantom Menace had going for it was Liam Neeson and Darth Maul which it then rendered that awesomeness meaningless by killing th both.
Yoda/Luke: Yoda doesn't see it as his place to do this, he's a teacher, not a fighter. He wishes to allow Luke to make his own mistakes, so that he will learn from them and grow stronger, and it could be that facing vader now and learning of his abilities and who vader is, would help him on his way to become a Jedi. Here we learn about the force, and watch as Luke grows as a character and we as an audience are taught about the nature of the force.
It is still just lazy writing. The audience is taught that, with the Force, you can do spin-flips though the air and balance rocks on top of each other. This somehow translates to being able to fight one of the nastiest villains in the Galaxy? No, but we need drama!
Luke/Vader: Luke isn't experienced, which makes Vader all the more threatening and dangerous. He's come here with the intention to save his friends, and isn't fully prepared. Vader doesn't kill him, or try because Vader is able to lower him to his lowest level, to break him down in an attempt to bring him over to the Dark Side. Luke and Vader's relationship is fleshed out here and becomes a massive plot point in the rest of the series, and while it might of been "pulled out of lucas's ass", it creates emotion between the characters that isn't "here is big bag, he is big bad".
Lazy writing again and proof that Lucas was making it all up as he went along. No one actually thought that Luke was going to be killed by Vader, but we need action so sure, let them fight in Cloud City.
Han carbonate/Leia: Vader was testing the machine to see if he could capture Luke to take him to the Emperor, but didn't know if it would kill him or not, and thus had to use Han as a test subject (which is successful, would pay Boba Fett his reward if ether outcome occurred). Han and Leia's relationship might not be original, but it's far more real than anything in the Prequels, and Leia's at a point where she doesn't know if she'll ever see Han again. It creates atmosphere and character development, and further drives the plot in the next movie.
Again, carbonite freezing is completely unnecessary and contradicts your previous statement of Vader trying to break down Luke to turn him to the Dark Side. So the original plan, as stated by Vader, is for Luke to be frozen in carbonite and brought to the Emperor. However, when convenient for the plot, the plan now changes to Vader pushing Luke to the Dark Side, revealing that he is Luke's father, and then trying to convince him to join him at his side and overthrow the Emperor and rule the Galaxy as father and son. Leia is a supremely underdeveloped character in the entire original trilogy and by doing anything to "set up for the next movie," it becomes guilty of the sins you place on the prequels: adding useless subplots that are unnecessary to the overall story to try and keeping the audience entertained.
Cloud City ambush: "Fastest ship in the galaxy" was boasting by Han, not fact. Fett had also been tracking the Falcon for some time, and it could be concluded that he has some form of tracking device available. Why didn't he disable the hyperdrive? Well, you answer your own question. Again this logic that "because the originals have flaws, it's okay the prequels do", is pretty stupid. Again, I don't understand the logic in this but it doesn't make the scene any less poor for me because it's actually a shock that Lando would betray them. Also, in this situation, Lando is pretty much their only way of escape, and as he said they were forced to do it. Also, why would Lando betray them again if he was just gonna betray them 10 mins later?
There is no reason to believe (outside of a wild guess) that there is anyone sort of "tracking device" on the Falcon. Fett is able to track Han and gang out of sheer convenience for the plot. The Falcon is well known to the viewer to be much faster than anything the Empire has ("It makes .5 past light speed" and has outrun the Empire previously in the movies) yet they were able to beat them to a location that only the people in the cockpit of the Falcon knew they were headed, coerce Lando in to betraying them, and step up a dramatic ambush to capture them. If all that didn't happen for the sake of moving the plot, I don't know what did. You misread what I said: Vader only disables the hyperdrive on the Falcon, which is stupid because anyone with common sense (or someone that is as evil as Vader) would either disable the ship entirely, or you know, completely destroy it. Lando isn't their only way to escape; Chewie could have just killed Lando (like he started to do) for betraying them, fought they're way through Cloud City's guards (should be easy, they've defeated numerous stormtroopers by this point and we've been told they are the most elite fighting force in the Galaxy), and flown the Falcon himself to escape. Again, for the convenience of the plot and to set up the story arch of Lando's redemption in Return of the Jedi, the characters and audience just have to accept that Lando is genuinely a good man even though every action he's taken in the movie says otherwise. It also isn't a shock that Lando betrays them, Han himself went so far as to tell everyone that he doesn't trust Lando. Why is it a surprise that he betrays them?
Vader's chamber: We are shown that Vader is human, and shown him in a position of weakness. Vader's character (which other than "I'm mean") is lightly added too in an interesting way that doesn't take up an entire scene, but is worked into another, by adding to the character through a simple visual.
We know that Vader is human and it doesn't show him in a position of weakness at all, it just gives the audience a teaser of what he actually looks like under his helmet. It is just a cheap send up to the fans.
Again, I think you are missing my original point. The prequels were nowhere near as good as the original movies. If I am flipping through the channels and one of the original movies is playing, I stop what I'm doing and I watch it. If it is one of the prequels, I skip it and find something else (unless it is near a scene I enjoy).The prequels were childish and over hyped, bogged down by wooden dialog and bizarre directorial choices. However, I don't let that get in the way of enjoying the mythology of the Star Wars Universe, something I've loved since I was a child. I was like how a lot of people are in this thread towards the prequels; when I first saw them I felt betrayed. But my view on them has changed over time and has become more nuanced. It's easy to tear down the prequels (too easy perhaps), but when you remove your emotional investment in the original trilogy, the same can be done. I absolutely love everything about Star Wars (I have a Star Wars tattoo for crying out loud!) and I'd rather just accept movies and the positives they bring to the franchise, than waste my time concentrating on the negatives.
Kilkrazy wrote: This book about a fan's life experience with Star Wars is a good read.
If you want to know why a lot of people prefer the first three films, this will help explain.
I understand why people (especially older fans) prefer the first three and I agree with them for the most part. I also prefer the first three.
Star Wars fandom is an interesting animal; nothing quite like exists in any other fandom. The fans stake such ownership over the Star Wars Universe and become so hostile when how they feel it should be is threatened, even by the very man that gave it to them. You just really see that anywhere else.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/12/08 15:51:43
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
Star Wars fandom is an interesting animal; nothing quite like exists in any other fandom.
How have you never heard of Star Trek?
As for being upset with Lucas, how many other filmmakers have tinkered and played with their films to such an extent*, even redoing entire shots 20+ years on? That is the part that is unlike other franchises, and is incredibly divisive. Tack on really awful follow up films and you get angry fans. I'm not angry, I recognize it as a product and so choose not to spend any money on it. At best I have a few of the video games but that is about it as far as merchandise goes. I don't even own the movies, though as a film lover it annoys the hell out of me that I can't get decent copies of the original theatrical releases. If I could get a Blu-ray of the original theatrical releases I would probably buy that.
*Spielberg redid sections of ET, but then later apologized and undid all the changes and has left it alone since.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/08 16:20:10
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
Star Wars fandom is an interesting animal; nothing quite like exists in any other fandom.
How have you never heard of Star Trek?
I think the difference here is though, that with most Trekkies, they accept and have had written in, time travel bringing about alternate universes. So yeah, they may get more up in arms over things before they happen, once they do, many/most of them settle back down and enjoy the ride.
Star Wars fandom is an interesting animal; nothing quite like exists in any other fandom.
How have you never heard of Star Trek?
As for being upset with Lucas, how many other filmmakers have tinkered and played with their films to such an extent*, even redoing entire shots 20+ years on? That is the part that is unlike other franchises, and is incredibly divisive. Tack on really awful follow up films and you get angry fans. I'm not angry, I recognize it as a product and so choose not to spend any money on it. At best I have a few of the video games but that is about it as far as merchandise goes. I don't even own the movies, though as a film lover it annoys the hell out of me that I can't get decent copies of the original theatrical releases. If I could get a Blu-ray of the original theatrical releases I would probably buy that.
*Spielberg redid sections of ET, but then later apologized and undid all the changes and has left it alone since.
That is what I was referring to when I said "nothing else is quite like it." For instance, there have been more bad Star Trek films than Star Wars, but since most of them were out of Gene Roddenberry's control he doesn't incur the wrath of the fans (even though he was forced out of the production of subsequent Trek films after the critical failure of Star Trek: The Motion Picture and has since came down with a slight case of death). That is where Star Wars fans are unique: they generally feel they own the franchise more so than the man who created it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/08 16:49:00
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: they generally feel they own the franchise more so than the man who created it.
Most of them are ok with Irvin Kershner I think.
Of course, he directed the best Star Wars film to date (even though it wasn't thought of that at the time of its release). George Lucas was still in charge of the franchise and spent most of his time overseeing ILM. Even though he didn't direct the film, he wrote the story that the screenplay was adapted from and served as the film's executive producer.
It is still unlike Star Trek: Gene Roddenberry created the TOS and the first movie then took a backseat role in the franchise until the creation of TNG where he only had an active role during the first season.
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
If you read the original Lucas scripts and watch the movies you would think they weren't related at all. Lucas is a great idea man, and a great producer, but he is a gak writer and director. He needs people to filter his terribleness through, which happened in the original films, but not the prequels.
Also, Roddenberry was a hack that got lucky.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
Ahtman wrote: If you read the original Lucas scripts and watch the movies you would think they weren't related at all. Lucas is a great idea man, and a great producer, but he is a gak writer and director. He needs people to filter his terribleness through, which happened in the original films, but not the prequels.
Also, Roddenberry was a hack that got lucky.
Yes, his original concept of Star Wars bears little resemblance to the film that was released in 1977. He ended up rewriting the screenplay four times after being told it was too confusing, the third draft being much of what became of the film and the fourth draft which became the pre-production script (he wrote this final draft with the help of two friends who were not credited).
I think Gene Roddenberry is overrated, but I wouldn't go so far as to call him a "hack."
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
