List of ridiculous and/or pointless wargear...

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**Musashi363**

It's not that big of a deal, but why does the Hellbrute have a Reaper instead of just normal twin linked ACs?

**Slayer le boucher**

Because reaper AC is a Chaos thing, and it is the same has a TL AC.

**Filch**

Chosen squad for csm.

Every upgrad on them is pointless.

**Big Blind Bill**

Thrawn2600 wrote:
Godhammer landraider as a dedicated transport.

Yeah I said it.
250 points. one more time, 250 points. I am pretty sure I could total the whole first page of this thread together and it would still be cheaper than 250 points.

What is the deal with this tank, its huge, transports terminators into CC and has tank killing guns. If you think about it the Godhammer landraider is just confused.

Most terminators that want to be driven into the battle are gonna be assault terminators or they could just deep strike. if I am gonna drive them into my opponents face then I am not going to do it at a lazy pace. Making the guns a bit useless.

Ok I dropped off the payload of BAMF space marines. now I got 2 lascannons. yay how useless for 250 points. All the other versions of land raiders are better.

Not to mention it's terrible transport capacity of 10, and no frag launchers.

**Grimskul**

KMB for the Big Mek.

**Musashi363**

Except the Reaper loses a foot of range. Sooo...not the same thing. As usual chaos stuff is worse than loyalist. Its wierd because CSM do have
Regular autocannons in their inventory, so why stick the smaller, man-portable gun on the dred, when it can obviously handle the better and longer ranged twin-linked ACs?

**Grimskul**

Musashi363 wrote:
Except the Reaper loses a foot of range. Sooo...not the same thing. As usual chaos stuff is worse than loyalist. Its wierd because CSM do have
Regular autocannons in their inventory, so why stick the smaller, man-portable gun on the dred, when it can obviously handle the better and longer ranged twin-linked ACs?

Because GW. And their weird dislike towards CSM from getting any equalizer with what normal marines have with ATSKNF or Chapter Tactics.

**Selym**

Filch wrote:
Chosen squad for csm.

Every upgrad on them is pointless.

Well... Some people do find uses for them, but why bother when each Chosen model costs 5 pts more than a regular CSM for no benefit whatsoever other than the power to take an extra couple of special weapons that you still have to pay for.

It'd work out cheaper to just go with PM's or extra CSM most of the time.

**rigeld2**

Creeperman wrote:
The Armour Indomitus for Space Marines. Hilariously expensive, and available only to models which already have access to some combination of artificer armour, Terminator armour, built-in invulnerable saves, and/or bikes. One phase of 2++ saves isn't worth the 20+ points' premium you'll be spending over normal wargear.

It's also Relentless and you can sweep and embark in Rhinos.
Not useless at all IMO.

**Scipio Africanus**

Chapter Champion with a Bolt Pistol, Combat Blade and Power Weapon. For when you don't... want to use your power weapon? (I GUESS MAYBE you'd do this so that you can be full init against things with bad saves.)

Tactical Marines Not being able to take either two Special weapons or 2 heavy weapons (the latter would defeat the purpose of devastator squads to some extent, I guess.)

Deathwind Missile Launchers. 15 points for a 12" S5 Large Blast? No, no thankyou. Especially on an immbile vehicle.

Skyhammer Missiles on the Storm Talon. Because 3 S7AP4 shots is useful against AV12 flyers... when?

**Shandara**

The repair rule on some flyers.

You can forego all shooting just to have a 1 in 6 chance of repairing your locked velocity, so good.

**Scipio Africanus**

Shandara wrote:
The repair rule on some flyers.

You can forego all shooting just to have a 1 in 6 chance of repairing your locked velocity, so good.

What flyers have this rule? I thought it was just Rhinos?

**Blakman**

Selym wrote:
Blakman wrote:
It is both ridiculous AND pointless to give your Dark Apostle the VotLW upgrade, even tho it is free.

Why on earth did Phil Kelley think that we would not want a free bonus against SM enemies?

Its pointless because the Apostle hates everything already due to the Zealot rule.

**welshhoppo**

Blakman wrote:
Selym wrote:
Blakman wrote:
It is both ridiculous AND pointless to give your Dark Apostle the VotLW upgrade, even tho it is free.

Why on earth did Phil Kelley think that we would not want a free bonus against SM enemies?

Its pointless because the Apostle hates everything already due to the Zealot rule.

Aren't they also Ld 10 too?

**ZebioLizard2**

Grimskul wrote:
Musashi363 wrote:
Except the Reaper loses a foot of range. Sooo...not the same thing. As usual chaos stuff is worse than loyalist. Its wierd because CSM do have
Regular autocannons in their inventory, so why stick the smaller, man-portable gun on the dred, when it can obviously handle the better and longer ranged twin-linked ACs?

Because GW. And their weird dislike towards CSM from getting any equalizer with what normal marines have with ATSKNF or Chapter Tactics.

If only they'd think that maybe all this old stuff could be 'different'.

**Nevelon**

Thrawn2600 wrote:
Godhammer landraider as a dedicated transport.

Yeah I said it.
250 points. one more time, 250 points. I am pretty sure I could total the whole first page of this thread together and it would still be cheaper than 250 points.

What is the deal with this tank, its huge, transports terminators into CC and has tank killing guns. If you think about it the Godhammer landraider is just confused.

Most terminators that want to be driven into the battle are gonna be assault terminators or they could just deep strike. if I am gonna drive them into my opponents face then I am not going to do it at a lazy pace. Making the guns a bit useless.

Ok I dropped off the payload of BAMF space marines. now I got 2 lascannons. yay how useless for 250 points. All the other versions of land raiders are better.

You say "confused", I say "tactically flexible, multi-role vehicle" Granted, you do pay a lot of points for stuff you might not be fully utilizing. But you have the option for when you need it.

On the topic of war gear, if we include stock options, it's shotguns on scout bikers. They come with them, and there is no time you would ever fire them, unless you are intentionally sandbagging your damage. The TL bolters on the relentless bike are hands down better. Even if you upgrade to the GL, rapid firing krack grenades is still better.

I also agree with plasma pistols being worth nowhere near 15 points. Same with grav pistols (which I think are better)

**Slayer le boucher**

Filch wrote:
Chosen squad for csm.

Every upgrad on them is pointless.

Not pointless, overcosted.

**Perfect Organism**

Did anyone mention Stikkbombs yet? They allow orks who charge through terrain to strike at I 2 instead of I 1. That's useful against other orks and pretty much nobody else.

**Big Blind Bill**

Would be good if going against Orks, tau, necrons and anything unwieldy. I don't know how useful this is however, as I don't play orks.

**Perfect Organism**

Big Blind Bill wrote:
Would be good if going against Orks, tau, necrons and anything unwieldy. I don't know how useful this is however, as I don't play orks.

Tau and Necrons don't really have the close-combat killing power to make a difference when striking first against a mob of orks. Unwieldy weapons tend to be found on stuff which an ork has little chance of killing without using a power claw.

**Murrdox**

Grenades for Orks is a good example. It used to be good in 4th Edition when the Ork Codex came out, but it quickly changed in 5th Edition. I started playing 40k at the tail end of 4th, so I really only played two or three games before 5th edition came out.

Someone correct me, but I believe the old rule was that if you were assaulting a unit and you had frag grenades, your opponent struck at Initiative 1? So for Orks, this was extremely beneficial. Then 5th edition changed it so that you struck at your own initiative instead of I1 when charging into cover.

I probably don't have it quite right though.

But the COST is insane. 1pt per Ork. So you have to pay a whopping 30 points to give a full Ork mob grenades. Maybe by the old 4th Edition rule this was worth it.

**Sammoth**

Selym wrote:
Slayer le boucher wrote:
welshhoppo wrote:
The Baleflamer upgrade for the Heldrake is ever so slightly OP.

Its not the weapon that is OP, its the ability of the Drake to Vector strike a transport open, and then use his long neck (360* turret weapon) to scorch the unit that came out of the wrecks.

Like many with who i talked about it, they all agree that the Heldrake shouldn't be a 360* AoF, but rather something like 180*.

If we can have a better codex, you can limit us to a 180* AoF

^This^

**Musashi363**

Ah yes, the different old stuff...like the autocannons the Havoks and predators use?

**Isbjornen**

The Dimensional Key, Scrolls og Magnus and the Murder Blade in the CSM codex. All are worthless and stupid.

Mark of Tzeentch on anything which doesn't already have an inv save. If it granted a 5++ it would be fine, but at a 6++ no one will ever bother.

**Hexwolf**

Isbjornen wrote:
The Dimensional Key, Scrolls og Magnus and the Murder Blade in the CSM codex. All are worthless and stupid.

Mark of Tzeentch on anything which doesn't already have an inv save. If it granted a 5++ it would be fine, but at a 6++ no one will ever bother.

Woah, Woah, Woah. The Dimensional Key and Scrolls of Magnus might be an insult to Chaos but the murder sword has it's uses. If your opponent is
fond of a certain special Character that really aggravates you then the Murder sword is essentially a massive enchanted middle finger.

I got really sick of one of my friends bringing Sicarius so I habitually kitted out a lord with the sword. After several games he got fed up with losing to my Lord
and now I don't have to look at Sicarius' ugly face any more.

But as for most useless, skim through the Chaos dex and you'll find plenty.

ALTHOUGH, the Onager gauntlet is pretty awful. I mean it's cheap because Tau get to have all the fun for half the cost, but one attack on a WS2 model? Don't see that going well ever.

**rigeld2**

Hexwolf wrote:
ALTHOUGH, the Onager gauntlet is pretty awful. I mean it's cheap because Tau get to have all the fun for half the cost, but one attack on a WS2 model? Don't see that going well ever.

But... it's the Donkey Punch. How can that be bad?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onager

**KommissarKiln**

Kommissar Kel wrote:
KommissarKiln wrote:Commissars in a CCS for IG. Honestly, paying 35 points, I believe, on another squishy model that can give your opponent Slay the Warlord if you fail a morale check unless you have some other Ld 10 HQ.

Commissar: *BLAM* "COWARDICE REQUIRES SUMMARY EXECUTION!"
Guardsman in squad: "Commissar... That was Creed! THAT WAS CREEEEEEEEED!"
(Gunfire ensues, transmission cut off)

You cannot get commissars in CCSs; you can attach a Lord commissar but that is your own tactical mistake

Likan Wolfsheim wrote:Taking hellfury missiles on a Vendetta always struck me as really, really silly. Especially since a Valkyrie with rocket pods costs about the same and can keep firing the pods. They aren't quite as good as the hellfury missiles, but they're not one-shot (then again, taking a Valkyrie over a Vendetta is also silly from a competitive standpoint).

Hellfury and Hellfire missiles are both bad, they confuse the roles of the fliers. Basically Valks and Vends are both 130 points, and have different jobs. I do play with my Valkyrie about as often as with my Vendetta depending on whether I have a quadgun(and with Stronghold assault I am likely to have several).

I would otherwise parrot many of the responses already posted, biggest offender is Digi Weapons on the brotherhood champ, completely and utterly redundant.

My mistake. It is possible with PCS, which is still a bad idea, risking removing the one giving the orders to save maybe 2 remaining models. However, I f a Lord Commissar and Ld 10 Warlord are in the same squad... Let the hilarity and *BLAM* ensue!

**Valkyrie**

I think I'd also have to offer the option for a Destroyer Lord to take a Voidblade. For 5 points you can swap your S7 Ap1 Armourbane attacks for S5 Ap- ones which have Rending and Entropic Strike. Your Warscythe doesn't give a rat's arse about anything that isn't T10, and yet they want you to pay to make it worse!

**Nevelon**

Valkyrie wrote:
I think I'd also have to offer the option for a Destroyer Lord to take a Voidblade. For 5 points you can swap your S7 Ap1 Armourbane attacks for S5 Ap- ones which have Rending and Entropic Strike. Your Warscythe doesn't give a rat's arse about anything that isn't T10, and yet they want you to pay to make it worse!

Ah, the "pay to make it worse" reminds me of the option to give sternguard stormbolters. For the low, low cost of 5ppm you can remove their special ammo. Sure, you get one more shot in the 12-24" range bracket, and the option to assault after firing. That's totally worth the loss of the special ammo. Not to mention the opportunity cost of not taking a combi weapon.

Not many trap choices in C:SM, this is one of them.

**MarsNZ**

Selym wrote:
Filch wrote:
Chosen squad for csm.

Every upgrad on them is pointless.

Well... Some people do find uses for them, but why bother when each Chosen model costs 5 pts more than a regular CSM for no benefit whatsoever other than the power to take an extra couple of special weapons that you still have to pay for.

I agree they aren't a fairly priced unit but they have an additional attack and leadership over a standard CSM, so that 5pts isn't completely wasted.