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tag8833 wrote:
"I don't use bubble-wrapping/tarpitting units" But "I run gargoyles" Brings me back to my original question. If you could take non-OS gargoyles as troops instead of rippers would you do so?

I'd run both. I'd bring 1 or maybe 2 rippers at most and round out the rest of my troops with gargoyles. Rippers still fill a niche that gargoyles can't compete with. They are better at holding far objectives without the need for Synapse and they are better able to hide than gargoyles are.

Also, a question begged by you description of your army (which you didn't build for Maelstrom). Do you think that an army chosen to compete with one type of mission is always going to be optimal when playing a different sort of mission? I don't. I run significantly different armies for BAO for straight EW (though the difference is small) and for Maelstrom (Big Difference). The bones are the same (Flyrants, Malanthropes, Gargoyles), but beyond that there are changes.

Yes, I believe it could be. IMO, a good TAC Tyranid list is usable in both games as it should have the mobility to reach any objectives, no matter how far. I get my practice from BAO missions, where you have to build your lists to be able to tackle both Maelstrom and Eternal at the same time, but I believe it can work both in solitary Eternal or Maelstrom missions as well. Basically, my TAC lists for both Maelstrom and Eternal remains unchanged unless I want to experiment with particular units or a particular playstyle.

 jy2 wrote:
I am wondering how are gribblies running past a deathstar (like the TWC) when in most likelihood, they will be forming a wall? When playing against a deathstar like a TWC, they tend to spread out to try to trap you. Thus, no matter where you go, they can get to you. In other words, they tend to form a wall when advancing so that they can easily go to the right or the left to catch "escaping" prey. And when I say "catch", I mean multi-assault that unit and whatever else is in front of them as the deathstar has a large foot print that can easily cover multiple units.

I don't think TWC have been terribly successful, but there are two players I see who run them regularly. One runs about 8-10 TWC with a bunch of cyber wolves to eat wounds. He sometimes spreads out, but I usually deploy gants on one flank or the other in an effort to get past him. I use my flyrants on turn one to shoot up that flank of cyber wolves so that he has a harder time multi-assaulting the gants. If he really wants to kill the gants he can, but with my Gargoyles screening for the rest of my army, it means he is giving up on something more critical to me. The other TWC player runs smaller squad(s). Usually he runs them up one flank with dreadnoughts on the other flank. I just run the gants towards the dreds. Sometimes I tarpit one of them on an objective. OS wins the day. I don't think either are a very competitive strategy, and I've beat them both with pretty fluffy list. I would like to figure out a more competitive list to pass along to one of them and try out, but I haven't really seen any better ones than the one he is currently running which can demolish lots of things, but has few answers to Tyranids.

One of my opponents, Frankie from Frontline, runs a really nasty SW deathstar list. It's not particularly balanced, but it'll crush almost anything on the ground with the exception of Invisible deathstars. Basically, he runs 6 TWC Wolf Lords (2+/3++) and about 30-40 fenrisian wolves, which he breaks off into 2 units, each with 3 Lords and 15-20 wolves. He then forms a very wide net where you just cannot get around unless you can fly over it. His list is pretty hardcore, but my dimachaeron showed his lords a thing or two. Hahahaha.... In any case, with your list, as long as you don't mind babysitting your gribblies on the flanks with your flyrants, then that's a viable strategy. It does take away some of the freedom with where you can position your flyrants, but my guess is that as long as they are in range to shoot at the TWC, then you will probably be ok.

 jy2 wrote:
Against drop pod marines, hate to break the news to you, but those marines and their drop pods are already on top of objectives. So yeah, your gribblies will be staying in your backfield and locking up those marines while trying to contest (and possibly score) those objectives that they are on. And even if they ignore those marines, guess what? They are going to get shot in the back by boltguns unless you want to assault 70-pt combat squads with your 240-pt flyrants, 150-pt dakkafexes or whatever.

1st things first. I don't reserve anything against drop pods, and I would recommend you don't either. If you are reserving stuff against drop pods besides maybe Mawlocs or rippers, you are doing something wrong. The drop pods are going to come in. When they do, they've got to make the choice.
Option 1) Alpha strike. Go after our valuable units like Flyrants. If they do this it is going to hurt. We are usually going to lose something, but all of those marines should either be dead or locked in close combat by turn 2.
Option 2) drop pod onto objectives. This is a much better choice against tyranids, and much more challenging to deal with. The problem isn't marines. A min squad of Hormies can tarpit a combat squaded tac squad plenty long for bigger stuff to come and clean them out. Gants should always be making sure that they are contesting objectives from the stupid OS drop pods or tac squads, but they aren't going to win you the game. That is going to be your bigger stuff. Rippers fare much worse in this scenario because they don't have quite as much mobility or staying power, and if the marines are going to cover up all of the objectives, they've kinda got to hide until they get cleared. They can tarpit a tac squad, but aren't as mobile to give up on one objective and move on to another if it isn't going to happen.

To answer your question Jy2, I think Dima just became pretty top tier there's no denying that this is exactly what he (and many others) needed.


This spore model is so balanced it's incredible... It's JUST below worth taking on its own merits, meaning spamming it aka Venoms or Serpents or something isn't worthwhile, but it's not a single wasted point when you factor in the transport. Taking 3 Dimas in 3 of those will REK face, at 900 pts it's pricey but delicious. Deepstrike a venom in with them, go to ground for 2+ save! flap a Flyrant up the board, omg synergy is back.



We now have SO many more valid units it's insane, even Pyrovores are REALLY good, they are like S5 Autohitting Biovores. There is no longer best builds, I think there will be so much more variability in this dex.

 jy2 wrote:
Ok, I am going to play Devil's Advocate and list the disadvantages of the new Tyranid spore pod:
1. Expensive.

I'm definitely on board with you here. I'm struggling a bit to theory hammer out a good use for a 75 point drop pod. I'm leaning toward a TFex as a backfield harasser, though 3 Tyrant Guard with a Tyranid Prime or Devil Gants also might make sense.

A 75 point tax to deep strike a Dakkafex is a bit iffy. I'm leaning toward worth it, but a bit tentative.

I'm also not clear on its usefulness for assaulty stuff like Haruspex, Swarmlord, or Dimacharon. It can't come in until turn 2. Things can't charge on the turn it comes in. So the earliest possible charge is turn 3. With a Dimacharon you are usually looking at a turn 3 charge anyways. If your drop pod should fail to come in you might not get a charge off until turn 5 which would be a huge waste of points.

2 Other new units in the same white dwarf:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/1385849_10152934438231159_296098968342967872_n.jpg?oh=b8ac1e590e8db4a437dd85a3d8627073&oe=54F22E05&__gda__=1424923187_7eca6be6e6ac7ef60f1631e4c912cc18
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/154574_10152934438331159_7778736304448117486_n.jpg?oh=7664db396eeb2e6840c091776ec8f00c&oe=54D6DFA5&__gda__=1425389597_25c034ea301fe58cd9736bba7c66f0cc

Pyrovores

Mucolids- Giant spore mines. Shrouded. Can assault flyers(hits side armor). S8 Ap3. +1 Strength for each mine.
Sporocyst- Infiltrates, can't move. Synapse units within 6" add 6" to their synapse range. Spawns 3 spore mines, or once per game one mucolid. Has five deathspitters(instinctive fire). Can upgrade like tyrannocyte.

Just to be clear, taking 3 pods with Venom Cannons hits 5x S6 Ap4 blasts, and sends 10 awry though your opponents side of the field. At the price range of a Flyrant, it's obviously less, but comparable, 11 S6 hits, or 5 S6 blasts. Not to mention e Ap4, and the other 10 that did god knows what. It's 70 points more but deepstrikes 3 units here. It's very balanced, as I said JUST under taking on its own merits, and has the riptide syndrome of being far more tanky then it's damage output, meaning it's probably the last thing that will be shot at, the bulk of its points, and usefulness, are used on its deepstrike+unit arrival, but it's still a significant amout of S6 blasts over the course of a game just not worth shooting at.

Instinctive fire- each gun fires at the closest enemy unit independently. So measure from each barrel basically. I foresee a YMDC about how. MCs can only fire two weapons...

tag8833 wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
Ok, I am going to play Devil's Advocate and list the disadvantages of the new Tyranid spore pod:
1. Expensive.

I'm definitely on board with you here. I'm struggling a bit to theory hammer out a good use for a 75 point drop pod. I'm leaning toward a TFex as a backfield harasser, though 3 Tyrant Guard with a Tyranid Prime or Devil Gants also might make sense.

A 75 point tax to deep strike a Dakkafex is a bit iffy. I'm leaning toward worth it, but a bit tentative.

I'm also not clear on its usefulness for assaulty stuff like Haruspex, Swarmlord, or Dimacharon. It can't come in until turn 2. Things can't charge on the turn it comes in. So the earliest possible charge is turn 3. With a Dimacharon you are usually looking at a turn 3 charge anyways. If your drop pod should fail to come in you might not get a charge off until turn 5 which would be a huge waste of points.

2 Other new units in the same white dwarf:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/1385849_10152934438231159_296098968342967872_n.jpg?oh=b8ac1e590e8db4a437dd85a3d8627073&oe=54F22E05&__gda__=1424923187_7eca6be6e6ac7ef60f1631e4c912cc18
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/154574_10152934438331159_7778736304448117486_n.jpg?oh=7664db396eeb2e6840c091776ec8f00c&oe=54D6DFA5&__gda__=1425389597_25c034ea301fe58cd9736bba7c66f0cc

Yeah, it's still a T3 charge. However, here is the difference.

1. Now your opponent has only 1 turn to shoot them down.

2. Imagine running 2-3 dimas in drop pods. Now imagine running 2-3 flyrants playing very aggressively as well. Now you've got a truly dangerous MTO Tyranid list where the threats are all dangerous and your opponent only has 1 turn to try to deal with them.

I know I'm excited!





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Instinctive fire- each gun fires at the closest enemy unit independently. So measure from each barrel basically. I foresee a YMDC about how. MCs can only fire two weapons...

That should overrule the standard BRB rules for MC's.

Just like monoliths and ghost ark special shooting rules overrides the standard rules for vehicle shooting.

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Instinctive fire- each gun fires at the closest enemy unit independently. So measure from each barrel basically. I foresee a YMDC about how. MCs can only fire two weapons...

Bolded the key word there.

I still think the Haruspex will be pretty sub-par. The Trygon can ds and without a 75 point tax to do it yet it's not too hot anymore.
I like the idea of using a Sporocyst for zone control, with some shrouded and area terrain it could be very hard to move, squishier troops won't want to come near it if it's surrounded by Spore Mines.

 ductvader wrote:
Pyrovores

I'm not sure I'm entirely on board with that. It makes Pyrovores better, but they aren't always going to have meaningful targets. We live in the age of Mech.

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Mucolids- Giant spore mines. Can assault flyers(hits side armor). S8 Ap3. +1 Strength for each mine.
Sporocyst- Infiltrates, can't move. Synapse units within 6" add 6" to their synapse range. Spawns 3 spore mines, or once per game one mucolid. Has five deathspitters(instinctive fire). Can upgrade like tyrannocyte.

Spoor cyst absolutely useless. For the price of a Malanthrope it gives you an unreliable buff to other Synapse (not better than, you know, actual Synapse which it does not freaking have) and spawns mines with 6" of itself. WOW TERRIFYING.

The Mucolids I'm unsure on. Is that T5 W3? Actually might be very worthwhile DSing in for minimal points, excellent board control and not easily wiped by Bolters like spore mines are.

Does adding Deepstrike to a Dimachaeron(or Any melee unit) really improve it that much? Nobody's ever said much about deep-striking shrikes, trygons, or melee-flyrants. I know I don't have as much experience, but I'm concerned this is just shiny new model syndrome.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Mucolids- Giant spore mines. Can assault flyers(hits side armor). S8 Ap3. +1 Strength for each mine.
Sporocyst- Infiltrates, can't move. Synapse units within 6" add 6" to their synapse range. Spawns 3 spore mines, or once per game one mucolid. Has five deathspitters(instinctive fire). Can upgrade like tyrannocyte.

Spoor cyst absolutely useless. For the price of a Malanthrope it gives you an unreliable buff to other Synapse (not better than, you know, actual Synapse which it does not freaking have) and spawns mines with 6" of itself. WOW TERRIFYING.

The Mucolids I'm unsure on. Is that T5 W3? Actually might be very worthwhile DSing in for minimal points, excellent board control and not easily wiped by Bolters like spore mines are.

HArd to tell, but I forgot to mention Shrouded.

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Does adding Deepstrike to a Dimachaeron(or Any melee unit) really improve it that much? Nobody's ever said much about deep-striking shrikes, trygons, or melee-flyrants. I know I don't have as much experience, but I'm concerned this is just shiny new model syndrome.

The dima can be incredibly effective in combat. As a matter of fact, he is our best CC monster currently, even better than the Swarmlord. However, his problem is one of delivery. He is just too slow.

Well, now that problem's just been solved. Put 3 dimas immediately within threat range of your opponent and support them with flyrants and then watch your opponents struggle.

 jy2 wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Does adding Deepstrike to a Dimachaeron(or Any melee unit) really improve it that much? Nobody's ever said much about deep-striking shrikes, trygons, or melee-flyrants. I know I don't have as much experience, but I'm concerned this is just shiny new model syndrome.

The dima can be incredibly effective in combat. As a matter of fact, he is our best CC monster currently, even better than the Swarmlord. However, his problem is one of delivery. He is just too slow.

Well, now that problem's just been solved. Put 3 dimas immediately within threat range of your opponent and support them with flyrants and then watch your opponents struggle.

That sounds quite promising, particulary if you could get the opponent Pinned from Barbed Stranglers on the Tyrannocyte.

Wait - Mucolids are troops?!

That... That's interesting.

Yup Jy2 I fully agree with you and think Tag is being a bit too skeptical here. These things while pricey make themselves very much worthwhile the points,barely a tax at all if you can even call it that. 1 turn of shooting to stop a Dima, and now it's p much guaranteed to make it to combat if it doesn't die. These are it's 2 biggest weaknesses! Nevermind how easy it is to get them. Reliable 2+ cover save for that 1 turn as well, it's crazy...

Also Pyovores cost as much as Biovores except hit much freaking harder. They are absolutely excellent now. LOL it just sounds wrong. But it's true.

I do believe someone here needs to build a good ol' list with some of these new creatures.... I want to experiment but I do not have time to list build atm! 1750.....

2 flyrants, 2 pods with Dima, another with Tervigon,, maybe a 4th with devilgaunts????

malanthrope or 2, and rippers?

IDEK. just mainly I need suggestions

rigeld2 wrote:
Wait - Mucolids are troops?!

That... That's interesting.

If that's the case I'll definitely be running! Wow didn't see that.

They can't score though right?

 jy2 wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Does adding Deepstrike to a Dimachaeron(or Any melee unit) really improve it that much? Nobody's ever said much about deep-striking shrikes, trygons, or melee-flyrants. I know I don't have as much experience, but I'm concerned this is just shiny new model syndrome.

The dima can be incredibly effective in combat. As a matter of fact, he is our best CC monster currently, even better than the Swarmlord. However, his problem is one of delivery. He is just too slow.

Well, now that problem's just been solved. Put 3 dimas immediately within threat range of your opponent and support them with flyrants and then watch your opponents struggle.

So you are looking at a list like this:
CAD
Tyrant (2 TL-Devouers, Wings, E.Grubs)
Tyrant (2 TL-Devouers, Wings, E.Grubs)

Malanthrope

3 Rippers (DS)
3 Rippers (DS)

Dimancharon in a Tyrannocyte
Dimancharon in a Tyrannocyte
Dimancharon in a Tyrannocyte

Ally
Tyrant (2 TL-Devouers, Wings) <- Had to lose the E.Grubs to get to 1850.

3 Rippers (DS)

Bastion w/ Comms Relay

It might work. Going to have trouble against MSU.

I didn't see a rule saying they can't...
But they'll explode when used right, so that part isn't relevant. The relevant thing is a S8 AP3 hit against anything (including Flyers) that gets charged.

That and a 30 point investment into minimum troops.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Nevermind how easy it is to get them. Reliable 2+ cover save for that 1 turn as well, it's crazy....

I'm missing something here. Rerollable 2+ cover saves? Where the hell is that coming from?

He said reliable, not rerolleable.

I'm thinking:

Flyrant 240
Flyrant 240
Mope 85
Mope 85
Mucolid 15
Mucolid 15
SpudDima 275?
SpudDima 275?
Dakkafex x2
Dakkafex x2

20 points left for ... fun?

 SHUPPET wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Wait - Mucolids are troops?!

That... That's interesting.

If that's the case I'll definitely be running! Wow didn't see that.

They can't score though right?

They follow all the rules for spore mines, but have shrouded and hit a lot harder. So they do not score.

rigeld2 wrote:
I didn't see a rule saying they can't...
But they'll explode when used right, so that part isn't relevant. The relevant thing is a S8 AP3 hit against anything (including Flyers) that gets charged.

That and a 30 point investment into minimum troops.

They deco can't score, says so under spore mines Living Bomb rule which they share

3" move ain't much, unlikely to ever do anything except hold ground for you and give you map control. That's good however. And a definite contender for the min size troop slot we got going on lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tag8833 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Nevermind how easy it is to get them. Reliable 2+ cover save for that 1 turn as well, it's crazy....

I'm missing something here. Rerollable 2+ cover saves? Where the hell is that coming from?

I said reliable not rerollable

 Tyran wrote:
He said reliable, not rerolleable.

Oh, How is it reliable?

tag8833 wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
He said reliable, not rerolleable.

Oh, How is it reliable?

Deepstrike a Vope in with them and a Mawloc / Gargs / whatever in front of them, and GtG.

tag8833 wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Does adding Deepstrike to a Dimachaeron(or Any melee unit) really improve it that much? Nobody's ever said much about deep-striking shrikes, trygons, or melee-flyrants. I know I don't have as much experience, but I'm concerned this is just shiny new model syndrome.

The dima can be incredibly effective in combat. As a matter of fact, he is our best CC monster currently, even better than the Swarmlord. However, his problem is one of delivery. He is just too slow.

Well, now that problem's just been solved. Put 3 dimas immediately within threat range of your opponent and support them with flyrants and then watch your opponents struggle.

So you are looking at a list like this:
CAD
Tyrant (2 TL-Devouers, Wings, E.Grubs)
Tyrant (2 TL-Devouers, Wings, E.Grubs)

Malanthrope

3 Rippers (DS)
3 Rippers (DS)

Dimancharon in a Tyrannocyte
Dimancharon in a Tyrannocyte
Dimancharon in a Tyrannocyte

Ally
Tyrant (2 TL-Devouers, Wings) <- Had to lose the E.Grubs to get to 1850.

3 Rippers (DS)

Bastion w/ Comms Relay

It might work. Going to have trouble against MSU.

Personally, I don't think that I would ever run 3 dimas. While good in assault, it does unbalance the army and certain armies (like mechdar, DE, white scar bikers or necrons) can still get from them. 2 is probably the most that I would run, and then bulk up on other units (like running another 2 mawlocs or something).

 SHUPPET wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
He said reliable, not rerolleable.

Oh, How is it reliable?

Deepstrike a Venom in with them and a Mawloc / Gargs / whatever in front of them, and GtG.

1) MC's cannot GTG
2) Venoms can't DS unless in a pod which is a pricey upgrade.
3) You are ignoring reserve rolls and scatter which are highly unreliable.

 SHUPPET wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
He said reliable, not rerolleable.

Oh, How is it reliable?

Deepstrike a Venom in with them and a Mawloc / Gargs / whatever in front of them, and GtG.

I'm 99% sure that MC's cannot voluntarily GtG anymore (the 1% is reserved so that if I am proven wrong, then I can say that I didn't have my BRB with me to verify. ).

Oops! Ninja'd. That Tag, he a sneaky git.