SHUPPET wrote:
But Dima is 2/3's the price, deploying a Swarmlord backfield seems unlikely you'll ever have much control over the combat he sees, which is pretty important for 200 pts. Wouldn't it be a 3+ save if hes sticking to cover as well, assuming the Malanthrope is dead? But regardless, if he has a cover save so does anything else you could bring, making him still the standout weak point to push on for your army. I don't think that's ever a good idea with a 300 pt model.

 Wilson wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
But Dima is 2/3's the price, deploying a Swarmlord backfield seems unlikely you'll ever have much control over the combat he sees, which is pretty important for 200 pts. Wouldn't it be a 3+ save if hes sticking to cover as well, assuming the Malanthrope is dead? But regardless, if he has a cover save so does anything else you could bring, making him still the standout weak point to push on for your army. I don't think that's ever a good idea with a 300 pt model.

honestly a cheaper way of going about the PE is to put 2 Malanthrope on a pod and sending them off to fluke a win in CC... lol

Eldercaveman wrote:

 Wilson wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
But Dima is 2/3's the price, deploying a Swarmlord backfield seems unlikely you'll ever have much control over the combat he sees, which is pretty important for 200 pts. Wouldn't it be a 3+ save if hes sticking to cover as well, assuming the Malanthrope is dead? But regardless, if he has a cover save so does anything else you could bring, making him still the standout weak point to push on for your army. I don't think that's ever a good idea with a 300 pt model.

honestly a cheaper way of going about the PE is to put 2 Malanthrope on a pod and sending them off to fluke a win in CC... lol

But then they won't be anywhere near the Barby to give him the Preferred Enemy.

iNcontroL wrote:
what? Malanthrope needs to be a part of a successful combat and then it.. and it alone gives the preferred enemy bubble so once it dies that bubble is gone. Also I would need to pod a barb over there as well or run him alone (no malanthrope) etc.. it's a really bad idea o_O

Shuppet: It's interesting in each of your points you describe bad play as reason why not to use him. All of a sudden I am running up the field, not with a malanthrope and he is 300 points instead of 285. You also down play WC 3 and his better survive-ability in CC which is something they both want to do. 3+ / 4++ is way better than the +1 wound 3+ save where they both have the same initiative, swarmlord has 1 more WS and 1 less base attack (no rampage though) BUT all his wounds do instant death. I ran the dima in over 100 games I love him.. my favorite model but with 4 HQ's (3 of which are flyrants) the body guard role is better suited for the swarm lord. If the dima had 12' move, flesh hooks or any kind of built in FNP or ++ save I'd agree with you but atm the force multiplier of the SL for +85 points over the dima is sick. I actually play tested it btw.. a bunch. I kinda gather you are just speculating >_<

 Frozocrone wrote:

iNcontroL wrote:
what? Malanthrope needs to be a part of a successful combat and then it.. and it alone gives the preferred enemy bubble so once it dies that bubble is gone. Also I would need to pod a barb over there as well or run him alone (no malanthrope) etc.. it's a really bad idea o_O

Shuppet: It's interesting in each of your points you describe bad play as reason why not to use him. All of a sudden I am running up the field, not with a malanthrope and he is 300 points instead of 285. You also down play WC 3 and his better survive-ability in CC which is something they both want to do. 3+ / 4++ is way better than the +1 wound 3+ save where they both have the same initiative, swarmlord has 1 more WS and 1 less base attack (no rampage though) BUT all his wounds do instant death. I ran the dima in over 100 games I love him.. my favorite model but with 4 HQ's (3 of which are flyrants) the body guard role is better suited for the swarm lord. If the dima had 12' move, flesh hooks or any kind of built in FNP or ++ save I'd agree with you but atm the force multiplier of the SL for +85 points over the dima is sick. I actually play tested it btw.. a bunch. I kinda gather you are just speculating >_<

Are there any batreps of your army including the Swarmlord? The only ones I've seen on Frontline Gaming include the Dimachaeron (sweet paint scheme btw )

iNcontroL wrote:
what? Malanthrope needs to be a part of a successful combat and then it.. and it alone gives the preferred enemy bubble so once it dies that bubble is gone. Also I would need to pod a barb over there as well or run him alone (no malanthrope) etc.. it's a really bad idea o_O

Shuppet: It's interesting in each of your points you describe bad play as reason why not to use him. All of a sudden I am running up the field, not with a malanthrope and he is 300 points instead of 285. You also down play WC 3 and his better survive-ability in CC which is something they both want to do. 3+ / 4++ is way better than the +1 wound 3+ save where they both have the same initiative, swarmlord has 1 more WS and 1 less base attack (no rampage though) BUT all his wounds do instant death. I ran the dima in over 100 games I love him.. my favorite model but with 4 HQ's (3 of which are flyrants) the body guard role is better suited for the swarm lord. If the dima had 12' move, flesh hooks or any kind of built in FNP or ++ save I'd agree with you but atm the force multiplier of the SL for +85 points over the dima is sick. I actually play tested it btw.. a bunch. I kinda gather you are just speculating >_<

Solidcrash wrote:
Just wonder if this list are unbeatable? Combin arms detachment.

Without Number

Swarmlord ( ensure every deep strike unit arrive in turn two.)

3x termagant (any weapon)
3x tervigons (troop choice)(if large/medium table size - in tyrannocyte)

3x sporocyst
3x toxicrene in tyrannocyte
Hypertoxic Node

iNcontroL wrote:

Shuppet: It's interesting in each of your points you describe bad play as reason why not to use him. All of a sudden I am running up the field, not with a malanthrope and he is 300 points instead of 285. You also down play WC 3 and his better survive-ability in CC which is something they both want to do. 3+ / 4++ is way better than the +1 wound 3+ save where they both have the same initiative, swarmlord has 1 more WS and 1 less base attack (no rampage though) BUT all his wounds do instant death. I ran the dima in over 100 games I love him.. my favorite model but with 4 HQ's (3 of which are flyrants) the body guard role is better suited for the swarm lord. If the dima had 12' move, flesh hooks or any kind of built in FNP or ++ save I'd agree with you but atm the force multiplier of the SL for +85 points over the dima is sick. I actually play tested it btw.. a bunch. I kinda gather you are just speculating >_<

 Voidwraith wrote:

You've gotta give Shuppet a break about the Swarmlord. You can find quotes of his where he says the Swarmlord may not only be the worst model in our codex, but the worst model in the entire game. He's just having a hard time hearing a great tournament player is finding a role for the Swarmlord in his list. You're shattering his world-view.

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Voidwraith wrote:

You've gotta give Shuppet a break about the Swarmlord. You can find quotes of his where he says the Swarmlord may not only be the worst model in our codex, but the worst model in the entire game. He's just having a hard time hearing a great tournament player is finding a role for the Swarmlord in his list. You're shattering his world-view.

Oh ur still trolling me? Thought you might be over this grudge by now. Once again, without using any supporting logic, you take the side of "tournament players say its right so how dare you contest it!", without being capable of applying a scrap of logic or even self-composed thought to any of your statements. You can keep arguing things just because you don't like me - or maybe you can start actually sharing the logic behind your opinions as to why I'm actually so incorrect all the time. Like, you know - a strategy discussion. Like, without the snide personal comments. You know. I'm backing every post and statement I make about a model or a play with supporting logic - people ARE allowed to give their own opinion even if it is different to that of a tournament player - is there any need for this sort of rude attitude in a strategy discussion thread?

Haruspex:

The Haruspex at its most basic is effectively a Carnifex that exchanges firepower and raw strength for improved durability (+1 wound, +1 initative, Feeder Beast) and placement in a marginally less competitive slot, to the point that a Carnifex with similar biomorphs costs the same amount of points.

Unique Special Rules:

- Rapacious Hunger: On the turn in which the Haruspex charges, it gains an extra attack for each unsaved wound caused by its regular attacks (no extra attacks from wounds caused by Hammer of Wrath, Tail Biomorphs, Acid Blood, or the bonus attacks themselves - ID wounds count as 1 wound). This is more or less a nice bonus, but not really a make-or-break ability since it only works on the charge and the creature‘s low quantity of attacks prevents it from getting too frenzied.

- Feeder Beast: If the Haruspex causes one or more unsaved wounds in the Assault phase, it automatically regains 1 wound lost earlier at the end of the phase. This rule renders the Haruspex quite resilient to the odd hidden power fists that would give other monsters trouble and gives it an attritional edge when fighting against other monstrous creatures (provided they lack ID weapons of course). Unlike Rapacious Hunger, Feeder Beast is not restricted in what must cause a wound in order to activate it, allowing Acid Blood, Hammer of Wrath, and even the Grasping Tongue (via Overwatch) to trigger it.


Biomorphs:

- Crushing Claws (stock): In 6th edition these had relatively little benefit since most Tyranid monstrous creatures (including the Haruspex) could get at least 3 S10 attacks on the turn they charged with rerolls for armor penetration. With the nerfs to smash in 7th, these make the Haruspex one of the few monsters left that can reliably wreck vehicles in assault (with the Haruspex’s S7 and Armorbane from the claws leading to average armor penetration roll of 14). The provided strength boost also comes into play when fighting other monstrous creatures, as in most cases it will wound on 3's and can harm Wraith-construct monsters on 5's compared to 6's for everything else.

- Acid Blood (stock): While not something one would normally pay for due to the unreliable nature of the Biomorph, Acid Blood does pair nicely with the Feeder Beast rule as wounds from Acid Blood can both trigger the special rule and Acid Blood benefits from the extra wounds granted. For maximum effect, can be combined with Feel No Pain from Catalyst for "free" activations and the Harpy's Sonic Screech for added reliability.

- Grasping Tongue (stock): The Grasping Tongue is a 12’’ range S6 AP2 weapon with the precision shots special rule (formerly known as “Gulp!”), allowing it to occasionally snipe special weapons and the like from units. The weapon can basically be thought of in the same vein as Bioplasma from the Carnifex, though slightly more useful since it has zero risk of hurting the Haruspex itself and can be used defensively in Overwatch. Due to its AP2, the Grasping Tongue is also hilariously one of the precious few weapons in the Tyranid armory that can explode a vehicle at range, though its middling strength limits what it can score a penetrating hit against.

- Toxin Sacs: Since the Haruspex is S7 due to its Crushing Claws, it can actually benefit from poison’s reroll when fighting against most other monstrous creatures in addition to the reroll granted against infantry models. Not bad if you have the points to spare, but not necessary.

- Adrenal Glands: An excellent upgrade and more or less an auto-take for the Haruspex if the points can be spared. Besides the obvious benefits of Fleet to a melee-centric creature, the strength bonus from Furious Charge allows the Haruspex to double out multi-wound T4 models on the turn it charges and helps with the primary role of cracking higher AV vehicles.

- Regeneration: Gets a bit of a nod on the Haruspex since it already has an in-built form of regeneration that stacks with the biomorph, allowing it to potentially regain two wounds a turn. Still, the upgrade is expensive (brings the total cost to that of a stock Trygon) and the points can generally be put to better use elsewhere.

- Thresher Scythe: Doesn’t benefit the Haruspex’s Rapacious Hunger and is a fairly weak extra attack, not really worth the cost to upgrade sadly.

--------------

Due to its unique ability to hurt more heavily armored vehicles, the most obvious function for the Haruspex in a competitive army is that of an extra Carnifex specifically tooled for cracking open heavy armor, freeing up the actual Carnifexes to lay down firepower from their devourers every turn against softer targets. Outside of this function, the Haruspex performs best when pitted against targets that rely on higher-than-average toughness (5-6 being ideal) and/or good armor saves over invul saves and numbers for defense while having relatively little ability to pile on wounds to allow Feeder Beast maximum efficiency. Most T6 monstrous creatures fall into this category as do most elite infantry (Wraith Guard, Bikers, Centurions, etc) making for no shortage of targets should large vehicles be unavailable. Due to the Feeder Beast rule, the Haruspex also has a slight advantage over other monstrous creatures when dealing with hidden power weapons in infantry squads, as it can simply weather the blows and chew its way through the protective chaff.

In terms of drawbacks, the Haruspex shares most of the weaknesses of other ground-based Tyranid monsters and can be treated accordingly. Specifically, it is highly vulnerable to dedicated counter-assault units (especially those that carry ID weaponry) and focused high-strength firepower. Despite its fluff, it is also not especially good at escaping from masses of cheap troops once otherwise engaged, though such fights can be used as an opportunity to regrow wounds in relative safety.


Grades: B- (with Adrenal Glands), C (vanilla)

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:

Solidcrash wrote:
Just wonder if this list are unbeatable? Combin arms detachment.

Without Number

Swarmlord ( ensure every deep strike unit arrive in turn two.)

3x termagant (any weapon)
3x tervigons (troop choice)(if large/medium table size - in tyrannocyte)

3x sporocyst
3x toxicrene in tyrannocyte
Hypertoxic Node

Nothing is unbeatable. Looks fun though. Try it and get back to us.

iNcontroL wrote:
helluva game Jy2 <3 always a pleasure to battle yeah. We got to rematch before I head home for the new year btw!

 Wilson wrote:
Where do barbed Heirodules fit into the new, new Nids then? do they have a place?

 gigasnail wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
Just had an amazing battle against Geoff "InControl" and his tournament Tyranids. This was a rematch. The last game, he won when his barbed hierodule stepped on both of my Necron bargelords and he rolled a 6, thus removing both of them. I then failed both of the 4+ return-to-play saves as well.

This time, Geoff ran the new Hive Fleet Leviathan detachment + Primary detachment. His list:

Primary:

Swarmlord

Malanthrope

3x3 Deepstriking rippers

Barbed Hierodule

HFL:

Dakka Flyrant - Egrubs
Dakka Flyrant - Egrubs
Dakka Flyrant - Egrubs

Mucolid
Mucolid
Mucolid

assuming 3 flyrants, SL + malanthrope to buff heirduyle? first legit useful deployment of swarmy i've seen since the new codex dropped.

it's a strange new world we're living in.

 jifel wrote:
Alright guys, I signed up for the Venomthrope and Malanthrope a few days back, and it's the weekend now, so it's time for me to deliver! I really think these two reviews had to be written together, because they are very similar in role.

Venomthrope:

Spoiler:

When the Tyranid codex first came out back in January, the Venomthrope jumped back into competitive lists thanks to the massive boosts it provides to the army. When the book came out, the Venomthrope stood out as perhaps the best choice in the codex, second only to the always-popular Flyrant. Venomthropes are rather cheap, costing as much as a Rhino and a Meltagun. The Venomthrope's value comes from the 6" bubble of shrouded it supplies to all Tyranid units with a model in range. Tyranids as an army have historically struggled with being shot off the board before they had a chance to advance, but the Venomthrope guarantees that any model in terrain will have at least a 3++ cover save and very often a 2++. Also, any FMC that happens to jink near a Venomthrope will benefit from a 2++ cover save. Compared to the alpha-strikes that we used to suffer from, Tyranids are now much more durable than they were before, and with Venomthrope support, Tyranids can comfortably elect to second without being afraid of losing half of their army turn 1.

Of course, the Venomthrope does have it's weaknesses. Most noticeably, the fact that it's not very tough. At Toughness 4 with 2 wounds and only a 5+ save, a Venomthrope is very easy to focus down if your opponent has ignores cover or decent firepower. After all, even in ideal cover a Venomthrope is only as hard to kill as two Terminators. Fortunately for Tyranid players, there are several ways to help this. The first is to deploy him out of Line of sight, like the inside of a ruin, or to buy a Fortification. Due to the rules of "Area of Effect" powers, the 6" shrouded bubble of a Venomthrope is measured from the hull of a Bastion that it is embarked in. This not only increases the area of effect tremendously, it also helps the Venomthrope become much more durable. Few opponents are able to kill a Bastion at long range turn 1, especially when there are several MCs running towards them. As a bonus, all models on top of or behind a Bastion will get at least a 4++ cover save, which then increases to a 2++, making the Bastion a great firing position for the likes of Biovores. The one downside to this approach is that the Venomthrope is completely immobile, and so you will have to disembark eventually to continue to provide cover.

Secondary roles: Although the Venomthrope is best used as a support beast to help the rest of your swarm survive, it is also handy in assault when times are desperate. Venomthropes have 2 attacks each base and strike at Initiative 7, with a 2++ poison and so can threaten many targets. But, they are very fragile in CC so I would personally never send them into combat alone, and never with anything tougher than a Tactical squad.

Grade: B+ (on foot), A- (in a Bastion)

Mlanthropes:

Spoiler:

The first thing to understand about the Malanthrope is that he is a Forge World unit, and therefore it is polite to gain permission before bringing him in a game. The second thing to understand is that he is an absolute monster of a unit, better than a Venomthrope in every way and arguably the best unit available to us. Malanthropes, like Venomthropes, provide a 6" bubble of shrouded that will help protect your units. But, for a nickel less than 2 Venomthropes, a Malanthrope has 4 wounds, Toughness 5, and a 3+ armor save, and best of all is a Synapse creature. On the one hand, he is the ultimate backfield support unit because he is a single cheap package to provide both Synapse and shrouded, and is cheaper and tougher than a Venomthrope and Zoanthrope combined. Thanks to this increased toughness, a Malanthrope can fill the roles a Venomthrope can't, by advancing upfield alone and still being tough, thanks to his improved stats and Regeneration. It's also a common tactic to buy two single Malanthropes and run them upfield to share the love of special rules they provide.

Malanthropes are durable enough that a Bastion isn't required, but it still is not a bad idea to spread out his Shrouded and Synapse Area of Effects. However, I would plan on getting outside the box late game and moving upfield to help support the army. And excellent option here is to buy an escape hatch for the Bastion so that the Malanthrope can shoot 18" upfield when he chooses to get out. Like his little brother the Venomthrope, a Malanthrope is quite handy in Close Combat,. Thanks to fleet, he is a little easier to get there, and his improved stats means he will hold up better in combat, while he has three 2+ poison attacks at initiative 5. The Malanthrope also has a host of special rules, he may issue challenges, but is not a character and so may not be challenged. In a challenge though, on a roll of 4+ he limits his enemy to half of his attacks, and initiative one thanks to his grasping tail. Better yet, if the Malanthrope is part of a combat that destroys an enemy unit, the Mal may not sweeping advance but instead gives Preferred enemy to any Tyranid in his synapse range. While a Malanthrope alone is not a great close combat unit, he certainly has nothing to fear and is wonderful in a multi-assault with other units to help him out. I think it's important not to lose sight of his role, as a support bug, but the Malanthrope is still useful in a ton of situations, making him the best unit for his points in the whole Tyranid arsenal.

Grades: A+ (on foot), A+ (in a Bastion)

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:
Well, I'm going to be honest. I promised 2 reviews but I have quite a bit of work to do. I completely rewrote them to be more insightful and I am going to have to release the Tyrant Guard later on this Sunday after I can finish it up to be better.

Spore Mine Cluster

Spore mines are one of the most strategic assets available in the Tyranid codex, though in the most bizarre ways.

1. The spore mine received a massive points decrease.

2. They lost random control dice.

3. They lost Orbital Deployment but gained Floating Death.

 Strat_N8 wrote:
Sorry for the delay everyone, been busy with work the past couple days... Here's the review for the Haruspex, I'll hopefully have the Harpy's done shortly as well.

Haruspex:

The Haruspex at its most basic is effectively a Carnifex that exchanges firepower and raw strength for improved durability (+1 wound, +1 initative, Feeder Beast) and placement in a marginally less competitive slot, to the point that a Carnifex with similar biomorphs costs the same amount of points.

 Frozocrone wrote:
@ Strat_N8 Good review on the Haruspex. I don't think anyone has claimed Crone yet. Might be worthwhile checking in YMDC about that Glancing Hit/Wound thing..

@jy2 Take it the Scythed Version is still not a competitive choice? Haha, do prefer it's model to the Barbed Version. Regardless it's still a nice update.

I can review the Mawloc, should get it done hopefully by tonight.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Sounds like SL was a 285 pt upgrade for PE that game, and that's the main problem with him

 jy2 wrote:
Where do barbed Heirodules fit into the new, new Nids then? do they have a place?

 jy2 wrote:
Ok, here's an update (and reformatting of my Lord of War Tactica).


Barbed Hierodule:



After playing against the barbed hierodule (BH) a few times, I'm finding he's actually better than I thought, especially when you accompany a malanthrope/venomthrope with him. At first glance, for its points, the Barbed Hierodule isn't very survivable. It is just as easy to kill as a wraithknight, but costs more than 2x the wraithknight's price. However, he has turned out to be much more resilient than expected in my games because he can very easily get 2+ cover with the malan/venomthrope if there are any ruins at all nearby. Unless you can ignore cover with a lot of high-strength or rending shots, he may surprise many with how hard he is to shoot down.

Another issue with the barbed hierodule is that he can be taken down in assault quite easily by a more dedicated assault unit. While barbie is a dangerous threat in Assault, he is not an actual dedicated Tyranid assault unit and can be overwhelmed by certain matchups in Assault. Strength D attacks, multiple thunderhammers, Insta-death attacks like force weapons and units like dimachaerons, Swarmlord and balesword Nurgle monstrous characters, rending attacks, assault deathstars.....all are units that the should stay away from. Oftentimes, it is worth consider a "bodyguard" of sorts when running the BH. Large units of gribblies (termagants, hormagants or gargoyles), the dimachaeron or even the Swarmlord can actually complement the BH well.

Finally, as good as its shooting is, it lacks skyfire, thus making the BH not optimal to shoot at air targets. Also, its shooting is only at AP3, thus making him not optimal at shooting at 2+ save units as well. It also makes him unable to one-shot/explode any vehicle that is not open-topped.

Now how can the barbed hierodule contribute to the army?

1. The best feature of the BH is its shooting. 12 S10 shots makes it a reliable ranged anti-tank unit. He is also great against very tough units like Necron Overlords on barges, wraithknights, multi-wound Tyranid/Daemon units and Tau suits as well as Imperial Knights (or units that Tyranids usually have problems dealing with). He is especially good against Imperial Knights as he can force them to position their ion shields in a certain direction, thus allowing the flyrants to flank them and to fire at them in their unprotected arcs. As a gargantuan creature, he can also split-fire, thus giving him the potential to take down 2 vehicles a turn (as well as to be able to assault 2 units as well). In a meta where MSU-mech has come back strong, the ability to split-fire then becomes a very important attribute.

2. He is deadly in assault. While not a dedicated Assault unit per se, his stomps makes him deadly in close combat. It is his stomps that makes him fearsome in combat, especially against deathstar or elite Assault units.

3. Mobility. The BH is actually quite fast, due to its 12" move and Move Through Cover. It's also got the Agile rule, meaning that it can run double-time or it can run and still fire 1 gun.

4. Board control/area denial. Because of his mobility and lethality in combat, very few enemy units, with the exception of dedicated enemy Assault units, will want to go near him. This makes him a great tool for the Tyranid player to use to direct the enemy to where he wants. In most cases, Barby is great as a board control unit and to deny the opposing army lots of real estate on the battlefield. Against opponents with the lack of assault units, you want to place objectives as close to each other as possible. Then centralize the BH among these objectives and dare the enemy to come close. If they don't, then Barby still has the range to hurt the enemy. If they do, then it is shooting and assault for the BH.

5. Bullet magnet. Although he can be taken down with enough shooting, the BH can also absorb a lot of firepower, thus making it easier for the rest of the army. If you keep a venom/malanthrope by his side (and if there are ruins nearby), it is not too hard to give him 2+ cover. Combined with his high Toughness and his natural FNP, he becomes highly resistant to most shooting. As long as you play him aggressively (and not just leave him sitting behind cover in your deployment zone), he WILL draw a lot of fire if the opponent has the guns to do so. When he does, that is a very good thing for the rest of the army.

It is important to note that, as the games get larger, he becomes more easier to kill. His value is directly proportional to the size of the game. The smaller the game, the better he becomes. Fortunately for Tyranid players, in a standard tournament game of around 1750-2000 points, he is very good.

Grade: A (normal 40K games), B (Apoc-sized games)