Super Dungeon Explorer: Forgotten King by Soda Pop, KS live and funded

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**Sarouan**

Exactly what Siygess says. The bigger picture is important.

Yeah, it's true this kickstarter isn't really Europa-friendly. Sadly Soda Pop has trouble with Europa since a lot of time now. It's quite hard to have their products where I am, especially the "limited editions" from their online store.

I still pledged because I like this game and I'm not sure I will have it easily with all the "bonus stuff" by the "usual channels" in my country. And yes, I'm aware it will cost me a lot. Better that than nothing at all.

But at least, by using this Kickstarter, I can have answers from them.

**destrox76**

Well said Siygess, well said!

**cincydooley**

Siygess wrote:
Hell, maybe it's just going to fund a few more photo shoots with Marie-Claude. Whatever happens to it, as long as it helps to ensure that SPM are still around this time next year and still putting out content for the game I play, then I don't have a problem with that.

Good post, Siygess.

But I won't lie; I have a hard time reconciling this portion. I struggle in my head determining that stuff like this is a valuable use of the money in this situation. I think having Marie Claude as part of the universe is great. She is super nice, and certainly draws people to their booth, but if they're so short on capital right now due to the buy out, I can't help but wonder if bringing her on for more apperances or photo shoots (which cannot be cheap) is the best use of the money.

When they had the CMoN security blanket I think it was a great Idea. When they get on their feet a little more I think it's a great idea. I just struggle with that notion now. It's akin to the guy struggling to make a mortgage payment that has a PS4 and the newest pair of Jordans.

**Siygess**

Heh, I guess I was being a little facetious with that Marie-Claude example, but if they did do that and SPM were doing well a year from now, I guess you couldn't prove that it wasn't because of a bunch of cosplay photos

**cincydooley**

Siygess wrote:
Heh, I guess I was being a little facetious with that Marie-Claude example, but if they did do that and SPM were doing well a year from now, I guess you couldn't prove that it wasn't because of a bunch of cosplay photos

Oh, don't get me wrong. I think she's a fantastic (and excuse my honestly unintentional pun her) asset for them. When she's at the booth a convention people go there. It's that simple.

But I don't know how much she helps make them solvent. Ya know? But then again, I'm not privy to how much she's getting paid; I just can't imagine it's a small number.

Overdiversification too quickly is something that can really hurt small companies from being stable. I don't think hiring her qualifies as that, but it's certainly money that could be focused on doing their primary product line's better.

Speaking of M-CB: does she have a SDE mini yet?

**Alpharius**

I have to admit, if I were in charge, I'd be lining up the next 'Marie-Claude Photo Shoot'!

Good think I'm not in charge...

**Sinful Hero**

cincydooley wrote:
Siygess wrote:
Heh, I guess I was being a little facetious with that Marie-Claude example, but if they did do that and SPM were doing well a year from now, I guess you couldn't prove that it wasn't because of a bunch of cosplay photos

Oh, don't get me wrong. I think she's a fantastic (and excuse my honestly unintentional pun her) asset for them. When she's at the booth a convention people go there. It's that simple.

But I don't know how much she helps make them solvent. Ya know? But then again, I'm not privy to how much she's getting paid; I just can't imagine it's a small number.

Overdiversification too quickly is something that can really hurt small companies from being stable. I don't think hiring her qualifies as that, but it's certainly money that could be focused on doing their primary product line's better.

Speaking of M-CB: does she have a SDE mini yet?

Not yet I'm pretty sure. She's in Relic Knights and has a promo Tentacle Bento figure(plus the cards), but so far no SDE mini.

**Sarouan**

cincydooley wrote:

Speaking of M-CB: does she have a SDE mini yet?

Nope, no SDE model at all for her. But that's quite understandable; she's not really fitting for that scale, if you see what I mean.

Beside, M-CB is all about some "eye-candy" for Soda Pop products. They always showed cosplaying girls with generous features at their stands, 'cause that's one asset for their models. Let's face it; many of the female ones are quite in the "pin up" category.

And I don't really believe it's her pictures that were putting SPM in the red, if it really happened at all.

**cincydooley**

Sarouan wrote:

And I don't really believe it's her pictures that were putting SPM in the red, if it really happened at all.

It isn't about putting them in the red.

It's about spending that money in a more responsible manner to keep the company solvent.

It was easier to spend the money on her when CMoN was providing support for the games as a publishing arm. It may be harder now that Ninja Pop is on their own.

**Sarouan**

You know, you can spend the money in all more "reasonnable fields" - but if people don't talk about yourself and your products, nobody will know you will even exist.

M-CB (and other cosplaying girls) is a way for that. That's a way for leading people towards your stand, so that they can see your amazing models.

It was useful when they didn't really have a game to sell, like before SDE et RK were really on the move. Now, they don't really need it anymore, but still it stayed on the minds of people who saw the pictures/this in real life. For that, I don't think it was wasted money at that time.

That's the same with societies selling cars while having pretty girls on their stands. Of course it has nothing to do with the cars themselves...but it attracts attention, one of the most valuable things in this harsh world. Once the customer knows you're there and is close, you can then sell better your product.

**cincydooley**

Don't disagree with any of that; the biggest difference is that all those other companies selling cars with pretty girls aren't brand new companies running a KS project so they can even publish a game.

I'm not saying it's a bad idea in general; I'm simply questioning if that's "money well spent" for Ninja Pop at this very moment.

**Sarouan**

Ah but, the difference is that they never said they will use the Kickstarter money for M-CB new pictures. Like, at all.

And beside, I doubt you can prove they ever did.

It's all about trust, I understand. And I can see you don't trust SPM in that field (though I don't see why you shouldn't on that particular subject, unless you saw their accounting files).

**H.B.M.C.**

We're getting hung up on trivial details here. Pretty sure Siygess was just using Marie-Claude as an example, not something he actually thinks they're doing.

**cincydooley**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
We're getting hung up on trivial details here. Pretty sure Siygess was just using Marie-Claude as an example, not something he actually thinks they're doing.

I don't know; I'm not conviced it's a trivial detail.

It's about ensuring any money from the KS goes to producing the product in a timely manner.

IMO, hiring Marie Claude to appear at a convention or to do an additional photo shoot is OUTSIDE THE SCOPE of the KS and the KS funding, unless they make a particular stretch goal "At $400K we'll do another photo shoot with Marie Claude." Even then, I think that should ONLY come as a last Stretch after all of the game related goals have been met.

This isn't a KS instance of a company deferring costs or doing a 'glorified preorder;" Forgotten King wouldn't be published any time soon without a KS because they don't have the money to do so after the CMoN buyout.

I think, AT THIS POINT IN TIME, spending money on anything Marie Claude would be irresponsible and unfair to the people that are funding it. But that's completely my opinion. If they prove they can do this KS efficiently and effectively, and can then release another product without KS, I'd feel even better about it. Hell, I'd be fine if they did a KS to pay for more Marie Claude photoshoots. I just think, at this time, the priority should be on game production and game production alone.

You're right; a lot of it is about trust. Its hard to trust Ninja Pop to run an efficient KS right now because of their past KSs.

**Sarouan**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
We're getting hung up on trivial details here. Pretty sure Siygess was just using Marie-Claude as an example, not something he actually thinks they're doing.

Of course Siygess was talking about a pun that has nothing to do with the matter here.

It's just all about people wanting to complain about personnel points of view/disappointments with the game/society.

Like your question about why you should back this project or not. The answer is "you shouldn't, since it's obvious with what you wrote that you don't believe anymore in the game itself".

**Rainyday**

I think the only thing this kickstarter really would have benefited from is an "add-ons and shipping for them only" level. so the people that don't want a full base set or just want the twilight knight can get that.

**Bossk_Hogg**

nkelsch wrote:
-iPaint- wrote:

I get the feeling that people are becoming more and more entitled with miniatures and gaming projects as Kickstarter itself ages. They're expecting tons of freebies, lots of stretch goals, and constant feedback from creators. It's really disappointing to see the fun and excitement completely sucked out of a campaign due to the negativity, whining, and general "me me me"
attitude that plagues the KS comments and updates sections. Seems like people just can't be satisfied with what they're getting any more....

Also, it's great to see all the doom and gloom predictions a few days into a month-long campaign.

~iPaint

The issue is: someone is literally saying "Give me an interest free loan and in 10-18 months I will give you your money back in product."

If you want to make full MSRP profit on your models, then *YOU* assume the risk, you front the capital or get a loan and pay the interest.

I don't think it is unreasonable for people to want deep discounts. We all know what it actually costs to make these products, we also know what they sell it to retailers to so we feel like we should be rewarded for our 'interest free loan' and want product at that 40-45% discount of MSRP that retailers get it at. That is not entitlement since they are asking us for our money. If they want large profit, then they need to release this at retail and I will pay retail for the benefit of having it immediately. In fact, I wish I could get it right now the way they promised 9 months ago for 2014 Q1 release...

EXCLUSIVES are one of the ways Kickstarter campaigns hedge their profit... You may not be getting as deep a discount, but you get stuff you *CAN'T* get at retail. If they want to do no exclusives, so be it, but you immediately see the response... "Not an exclusive? I don't need to get it now then, I will wait for retail". If those add-ons were exclusives, every single one of the 2000 backers would have immediately added 10$. RIght now, there are 2203 backers which means 220,300$ is for 100$ pledges. that is 31k of add-ons or 'doubles'. That is an average of 14$ per backer on add-ons... It is clear people are not pledging the add-ons in force.

I am not saying exclusives are 'required' or even 'good' but it drives pledges... and when your core discount is weak, that is a hard sell. People are more tolerant of paying overpriced add-ons which help dilute the loss on the core set when the core set is a retailer discount.

So don't give me the "Support a company, the honor of backing this KS' Bullcrap. They are asking for an interest free loan and to have us assume the risk... 10% discount from MSRP is not a good deal for 9+ months of our waiting. Overpriced stretch goals which lack value lack incentive to pledge.

Also: while I don't care about exclusives, if someone said something was, it needs to stay that way. If you want to have no exclusives, fine. But don't make them and then renege on it because you miss-managed your company, got caught with your pants down with a competitor's product and are broke and see a way to sell exclusives for more cash. Exclusives help KSs as you can deeper discount your core set and then guarantee overpriced add-ons to recoup that cost. You have to drive down the core value to get people in.

A-friggin-men.

I don't even sniff at a KS unless its going to be 30% off or more. If I can get this for 20% off retail at Miniature Market on release, why the hell am I buying it 12+ months in advance for 10% off? And don't give me the "we cant sell it cheaper" BS. If Miniature Market is selling it for 20% off, they bought it for 50% off. So you can sell it for $50 to them, but not $60 to me a year in advance?

**Sinful Hero**

Bossk_Hogg wrote:

Spoiler:

nkelsch wrote:
-iPaint- wrote:

I get the feeling that people are becoming more and more entitled with miniatures and gaming projects as Kickstarter itself ages. They're expecting tons of freebies, lots of stretch goals, and constant feedback from creators. It's really disappointing to see the fun and excitement completely sucked out of a campaign due to the negativity, whining, and general "me me me"
attitude that plagues the KS comments and updates sections. Seems like people just can't be satisfied with what they're getting any more....

Also, it's great to see all the doom and gloom predictions a few days into a month-long campaign.

~iPaint

The issue is: someone is literally saying "Give me an interest free loan and in 10-18 months I will give you your money back in product."

If you want to make full MSRP profit on your models, then *YOU* assume the risk, you front the capital or get a loan and pay the interest.

I don't think it is unreasonable for people to want deep discounts. We all know what it actually costs to make these products, we also know what they sell it to retailers to so we feel like we should be rewarded for our 'interest free loan' and want product at that 40-45% discount of MSRP that retailers get it at. That is not entitlement since they are asking us for our money. If they want large profit, then they need to release this at retail and I will pay retail for the benefit of having it immediately. In fact, I wish I could get it right now the way they promised 9 months ago for 2014 Q1 release...

EXCLUSIVES are one of the ways Kickstarter campaigns hedge their profit... You may not be getting as deep a discount, but you get stuff you *CAN'T* get at retail. If they want to do no exclusives, so be it, but you immediately see the response... "Not an exclusive? I don't need to get it now then, I will wait for retail". If those add-ons were exclusives, every single one of the 2000 backers would have immediately added 10$. RIght now, there are 2203 backers which means 220,300$ is for 100$ pledges. that is 31k of add-ons or 'doubles'. That is an average of 14$ per backer on add-ons... It is clear people are not pledging the add-ons in force.

I am not saying exclusives are 'required' or even 'good' but it drives pledges... and when your core discount is weak, that is a hard sell. People are more tolerant of paying overpriced add-ons which help dilute the loss on the core set when the core set is a retailer discount.

So don't give me the "Support a company, the honor of backing this KS' Bullcrap. They are asking for an interest free loan and to have us assume the risk... 10% discount from MSRP is not a good deal for 9+ months of our waiting. Overpriced stretch goals which lack value lack incentive to pledge.

Also: while I don't care about exclusives, if someone said something was, it needs to stay that way. If you want to have no exclusives, fine. But don't make them and then renege on it because you miss-managed your company, got caught with your pants down with a competitor's product and are broke and see a way to sell exclusives for more cash. Exclusives help KSs as you can deeper discount your core set and then guarantee overpriced add-ons to recoup that cost. You have to drive down the core value to get people in.

A-friggin-men.

I don't even sniff at a KS unless its going to be 30% off or more. If I can get this for 20% off retail at Miniature Market on release, why the hell am I buying it 12+ months in advance for 10% off? And don't give me the "we cant sell it cheaper" BS. If Miniature Market is selling it for 20% off, they bought it for 50% off. So you can sell it for $50 to them, but not $60 to me a year in advance?

Or you could just never buy it all if the kickstarter doesn't get funded. There's that too. A discount is nice, but why don't you always just wait for retail for a deeper discount? If you always only join kickstarters for a discount that's fine, but understand that's not what kickstarter is for.

**Sarouan**

It's like going to the bank asking for a loan. You never go for pleasure, you do it because you have no other choice. Crowdfunding is a way to gather money without having the exorbitant rates (or just having a big no-no as anwer, 'cause the bank doesn't believe in your success).

It's not a honor, it's a gift of trust from their backers. There is always a huge risk of having it totally wasted, and it's understandable to be very careful before pledging.

There is nothing wrong about not believing in this Kickstarter. This will be your choice and that's respectable in itself.

It's just that I don't see why complaining about it existing at all if you don't have the intent to pledge. After all, you're not forced to; if you decide to keep your money for yourself, it suits yourself and that's perfectly fine. It's just that I believe only those who back this project are right in their ranting if something goes wrong. The others are only making noise for nothing.

**Bossk_Hogg**

Sinful Hero wrote:
Bossk_Hogg wrote:

Spoiler:

nkelsch wrote:
-iPaint- wrote:

I get the feeling that people are becoming more and more entitled with miniatures and gaming projects as Kickstarter itself ages. They're expecting tons of freebies, lots of stretch goals, and constant feedback from creators. It's really disappointing to see the fun and excitement completely sucked out of a campaign due to the negativity, whining, and general "me me me"
attitude that plagues the KS comments and updates sections. Seems like people just can't be satisfied with what they're getting any more....

Also, it's great to see all the doom and gloom predictions a few days into a month-long campaign.

~iPaint

The issue is: someone is literally saying "Give me an interest free loan and in 10-18 months I will give you your money back in product."

If you want to make full MSRP profit on your models, then *YOU* assume the risk, you front the capital or get a loan and pay the interest.

I don't think it is unreasonable for people to want deep discounts. We all know what it actually costs to make these products, we also know what they sell it to retailers to so we feel like we should be rewarded for our 'interest free loan' and want product at that 40-45% discount of MSRP that retailers get it at. That is not entitlement since they are asking us for our money. If they want large profit, then they need to release this at retail and I will pay retail for the benefit of having it immediately. In fact, I wish I could get it right now the way they promised 9 months ago for 2014 Q1 release...

EXCLUSIVES are one of the ways Kickstarter campaigns hedge their profit... You may not be getting as deep a discount, but you get stuff you *CAN'T* get at retail. If they want to do no exclusives, so be it, but you immediately see the response... "Not an exclusive? I don't need to get it now then, I will wait for retail". If those add-ons were exclusives, every single one of the 2000 backers would have immediately added 10$. RIght now, there are 2203 backers which means 220,300$ is for 100$ pledges. that is 31k of add-ons or 'doubles'. That is an average of 14$ per backer on add-ons... It is clear people are not pledging the add-ons in force.

I am not saying exclusives are 'required' or even 'good' but it drives pledges... and when your core discount is weak, that is a hard sell. People are more tolerant of paying overpriced add-ons which help dilute the loss on the core set when the core set is a retailer discount.

So don't give me the "Support a company, the honor of backing this KS' Bullcrap. They are asking for an interest free loan and to have us assume the risk... 10% discount from MSRP is not a good deal for 9+ months of our waiting. Overpriced stretch goals which lack value lack incentive to pledge.

Also: while I don't care about exclusives, if someone said something was, it needs to stay that way. If you want to have no exclusives, fine. But don't make them and then renege on it because you miss-managed your company, got caught with your pants down with a competitor's product and are broke and see a way to sell exclusives for more cash. Exclusives help KSs as you can deeper discount your core set and then guarantee overpriced add-ons to recoup that cost. You have to drive down the core value to get people in.

A-friggin-men.

I don't even sniff at a KS unless its going to be 30% off or more. If I can get this for 20% off retail at Miniature Market on release, why the hell am I buying it 12+ months in advance for 10% off? And don't give me the "we cant sell it cheaper" BS. If Miniature Market is selling it for 20% off, they bought it for 50% off. So you can sell it for $50 to them, but not $60 to me a year in advance?

Or you could just never buy it all if the kickstarter doesn't get funded. There's that too. A discount is nice, but why don't you always just wait for retail for a deeper discount? If you always only join kickstarters for a discount that's fine, but understand that's not what kickstarter is for.

What its "for" is up for debate, but IMO its not to make a large profit a year in advance of actually delivering product. The infrastructure of new molds, design, etc is what the product manufacturer should got, not all that AND to line their wallets. A good campaign roughly breaks even after operating costs, with the benefits being you got an interest free loan and get to sell your product at retail.

Again, why is a backer now treated less well than a distributor/store a year later?

**Sinful Hero**

Bossk_Hogg wrote:
Sinful Hero wrote:
Bossk_Hogg wrote:

Spoiler:

nkelsch wrote:
-iPaint- wrote:

I get the feeling that people are becoming more and more entitled with miniatures and gaming projects as Kickstarter itself ages. They're expecting tons of freebies, lots of stretch goals, and constant feedback from creators. It's really disappointing to see the fun and excitement completely sucked out of a campaign due to the negativity, whining, and general "me me me"
attitude that plagues the KS comments and updates sections. Seems like people just can't be satisfied with what they're getting any more....

Also, it's great to see all the doom and gloom predictions a few days into a month-long campaign.

~iPaint

The issue is: someone is literally saying "Give me an interest free loan and in 10-18 months I will give you your money back in product."

If you want to make full MSRP profit on your models, then *YOU* assume the risk, you front the capital or get a loan and pay the interest.

I don't think it is unreasonable for people to want deep discounts. We all know what it actually costs to make these products, we also know what they sell it to retailers to so we feel like we should be rewarded for our 'interest free loan' and want product at that 40-45% discount of MSRP that retailers get it at. That is not entitlement since they are asking us for our money. If they want large profit, then they need to release this at retail and I will pay retail for the benefit of having it immediately. In fact, I wish I could get it right now the way they promised 9 months ago for 2014 Q1 release...

EXCLUSIVES are one of the ways Kickstarter campaigns hedge their profit... You may not be getting as deep a discount, but you get stuff you *CAN'T* get at retail. If they want to do no exclusives, so be it, but you immediately see the response... "Not an exclusive? I don't need to get it now then, I will wait for retail". If those add-ons were exclusives, every single one of the 2000 backers would have immediately added 10$. RIght now, there are 2203 backers which means 220,300$ is for 100$ pledges. that is 31k of add-ons or 'doubles'. That is an average of 14$ per backer on add-ons... It is clear people are not pledging the add-ons in force.

I am not saying exclusives are 'required' or even 'good' but it drives pledges... and when your core discount is weak, that is a hard sell. People are more tolerant of paying overpriced add-ons which help dilute the loss on the core set when the core set is a retailer discount.

So don't give me the "Support a company, the honor of backing this KS' Bullcrap. They are asking for an interest free loan and to have us assume the risk... 10% discount from MSRP is not a good deal for 9+ months of our waiting. Overpriced stretch goals which lack value lack incentive to pledge.

Also: while I don't care about exclusives, if someone said something was, it needs to stay that way. If you want to have no exclusives, fine. But don't make them and then renege on it because you miss-managed your company, got caught with your pants down with a competitor's product and are broke and see a way to sell exclusives for more cash. Exclusives help KSs as you can deeper discount your core set and then guarantee overpriced add-ons to recoup that cost. You have to drive down the core value to get people in.

A-friggin-men.

I don't even sniff at a KS unless its going to be 30% off or more. If I can get this for 20% off retail at Miniature Market on release, why the hell am I buying it 12+ months in advance for 10% off? And don't give me the "we cant sell it cheaper" BS. If Miniature Market is selling it for 20% off, they bought it for 50% off. So you can sell it for $50 to them, but not $60 to me a year in advance?

Or you could just never buy it all if the kickstarter doesn't get funded. There's that too. A discount is nice, but why don't you always just wait for retail for a deeper discount? If you always only join kickstarters for a discount that's fine, but understand that's not what kickstarter is for.

What its "for" is up for debate, but IMO its not to make a large profit a year in advance of actually delivering product. The infrastructure of new molds, design, etc is what the product manufacturer should got, not all that AND to line their wallets. A good campaign roughly breaks even after operating costs, with the benefits being you got an interest free loan and get to sell your product at retail.

Again, why is a backer now treated less well than a distributor/store a year later?

No, I don't agree with this at all. A business owner always gets paid for their time. They're not a charity. Their time is worth something too, and "breaking even" isn't the point of running a business. They want to enjoy what they do, and make a profit as well. If you think they're making too much money off of it don't back.

**Sarouan**

Bossk_Hogg wrote:

Again, why is a backer now treated less well than a distributor/store a year later?

If you feel you're not treated well, then you can still ask for more. If you still gets "denied", then you can choose another Kickstarter/another Crowdfunding more fitting to your standing.

It's not like there is no choice nowadays, since this is used more often than before.

Besides, please be aware that it's not the same as in the beginning, when editors needed to "convince" enough people into that "new but looking suspicious way since we don't know how it will work in the end" by being a lot more generous...and that there are also "costs" for making a Kickstarter as well that weren't the same when everything was still "new".

**Siygess**

H.B.M.C. wrote:We're getting hung up on trivial details here. Pretty sure Siygess was just using Marie-Claude as an example, not something he actually thinks they're doing.

Sarouan wrote:Of course Siygess was talking about a pun that has nothing to do with the matter here.

Heh, yeah pretty much, it was just an extreme example of what they could do with the extra cash, and not what I think they would do

..but there is a valid point if you generalise it a little. Marketing (and that's really what the M-CD thing is about) is actually pretty important, especially in light of the SPM / CMoN split which might lead the average gamer or retailer to think that SPM was now dead in the water. People aren't going to go into a store to ask about their products if they think it's dead and retailers aren't going to take a chance on some new SKU's if they believe that the company is going to go belly up in a few months time. So if the majority of the cash raised in the KS goes towards TFK, would it be so terrible if they used a portion of the 'extra' cash to promote the impending retail availability (hah!) of Relic Knights or TFK? If they used some of that extra cash to take their pre-production TFK box to a few conventions? If M-CD was also there at the booth?

Oh damn, we're back on to M-CD again!

**cincydooley**

Sarouan wrote:

It's just that I don't see why complaining about it existing at all if you don't have the intent to pledge. After all, you're not forced to; if you decide to keep your money for yourself, it suits yourself and that's perfectly fine. It's just that I believe only those who back this project are right in their ranting if something goes wrong. The others are only making noise for nothing.

I just want to clarify that I'm not in the "don't have the intent to pledge" camp; I'm simply very torn. I love the game. I playtested the new rules and think they're great. I very much like John, Deke, Chris, and Ross as people. I want them to do very well. And I want them to give me some compelling reasons to back. Here, I think many of us (nklesch specifically) are doing a lot of our risk-benefit analysis as a groupthink. I know it helps me.

Ninja Pop as a business simply makes me leery because of the past history AND because they haven't published anything "on their own" yet.

@Siygess - Wholeheartedly agree about marketing. Incredibly important. I'd simply "prefer" that if they're going to allocate their money from a KS to marketing, they do it responsibly. M-CB is great. Love her. Great lady to talk to and great as a spokesperson for them. I simply can't imagine she comes cheaply. And like I said before, If they want to set their final stretch goal as, "at $400K we're going to have M-CB do more work for us AND turn her into a SDE character, which you get" I'd be perfectly fine with it.

I think, when I vocalize it here, what I'm really looking for is the clarity in how they're allocating the funds, if only because their KS track record isn't great, and as a solo publishing house they're as of yet unproven.

I don't think it's unreasonable to want to that your money is going to be used responsibly.

**Salacious Greed**

Siygess wrote:
.. and to that I would say "You're welcome."

..and possibly "Feel free to kiss my ass any time"

I have no problem with you giving them your money. I said I just don't understand.

Let me make this analogy: All the backers are effectively the Government, giving a company that should go out of business interest free money, which they'll only give back a fraction of to the backers.

Free market theory says that companies go out of business when they are poorly managed and poorly run. The product could be the greatest thing on earth, but if the company is bad, it doesn't matter.

As to kissing your ass, you have a better chance of spontaneously giving birth to this game from your ass before I'd be kissing it...

**Sarouan**

cincydooley wrote:

Ninja Pop as a business simply makes me leery because of the past history AND because they haven't published anything "on their own" yet.

Don't you think that's the reason why they did a Kickstarter? So that they can do it on their own?

There is always a risk. Right now, there is more than 2000 people that gave their trust into it. Do you think their concerns/doubts don't exist because they pledged?

I like the game. I believe they can do something good from it. I believe in the team you described. I think that they just grazed the surface and they can do a lot more things in the future with Super Dungeon Explore. I know they still need to prove themselves as a business on their own. That's the perfect opportunity with this Kickstarter to know it.

I can lose my money, that's a fact. It's life, full of choices that sometimes go wrong, but also can go right. The only thing that stays true is; if you don't try, nothing will happen.

Of course, you don't have to. After all, the project is already funded. So there is no risk about not backing the Kickstarter, since it will goes into retail if it succeeds and all the loots unlocked will be avalaible on their store anyway.

It's all about you do it or not. That's all.

And yeah, people will take benefit of my pledge if everything goes well. I don't care. What matters to me is that I did it. Not just for myself, but because I want this game (and SPM) to succeed. If people don't understand, that's fine as well. It just means they don't know everything.

I don't think it's unreasonable to want to that your money is going to be used responsibly.

You are perfectly right. That's why I believe it's important to talk with the people behind this and decide if they can be trusted or not. It's easier to get to them with this Kickstarter...since they need to convince people to back it, after all.

It's just that talking about it here...I don't believe they come to Dakka if they want to get in touch with their fans. I mean, this is not exactly the place you have in mind when you think about Super Dungeon Explore...

**Century1**

cincydooley wrote:

I just want to clarify that I'm not in the "don't have the intent to pledge" camp; I'm simply very torn. I love the game. I playtested the new rules and think they're great. I very much like John, Deke, Chris, and Ross as people. I want them to do very well. And I want them to give me some compelling reasons to back. Here, I think many of us (nklesch specifically) are doing a lot of our risk-benefit analysis as a groupthink. I know it helps me.

It seems like you just listed some compelling reasons. You like the game, you helped test it, and you like the people. All seem to be great reasons to pledge. Not everything has to be looked at from a purely financial standpoint.

**Siygess**

Salacious Greed wrote:
Let me make this analogy: All the backers are effectively the Government, giving a company that should go out of business interest free money, which they'll only give back a fraction of to the backers.

Free market theory says that companies go out of business when they are poorly managed and poorly run. The product could be the greatest thing on earth, but if the company is bad, it doesn't matter.

Sure, but in this case it's because the government wants that company to squeeze out their next product. In the same analogy, you seem to be chastising the government for doing so, chastising the company for making decisions with the wheel-of-misfortune, while all the while - presumably - planning to take advantage of the fact that there will be another product so that you can buy it for less than the government put in to it. What I can't quite get my head around is why that's a problem. If the government didn't bail that company out for you, there would be no product for you to buy.

Maybe that's not an issue for you - perhaps you wouldn't care either way (although if you are so ambivalent regarding the future of the game, why even show an interest in the KS?) - but it's clearly a problem for the government.

Salacious Greed wrote:
As to kissing your ass, you have a better chance of spontaneously giving birth to this game from your ass before I'd be kissing it...

Ah, well, I have some bad news for you then. Thanks to SPM's wheel-of-misfortune, that's exactly how they've decided to handle manufacturing

**cincydooley**

Century1 wrote:
cincydooley wrote:

It seems like you just listed some compelling reasons. You like the game, you helped test it, and you like the people. All seem to be great reasons to pledge. Not everything has to be looked at from a purely financial standpoint.

I don't know; I think, "I'm not quite sure if I trust them with my money" is a pretty compelling reason unto itself.

Like I said, I'm torn.

**RiTides**

There's a lot of non-campaign talk here, I've lost the thread of discussion... but as noted earlier, there really doesn't seem to be much reason for me to back this... so I'm not going to. Easy