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NamelessBard wrote: I ran the numbers but the post didn't seem to be pasted properly.
I wanted to see what this does to the number. My first thought is that you are going to be spawning more on the first turn, but you'll get an increased likelihood of failing to spawn again. After running the numbers...
One thing you can see here is that the number of 1 brood spawned went up by 6%, so that confirmed one of my theories.
Comparing this to the last one, we see a strange dip at around 19 gants. This is because 18 being the maximum amount that can be spawned in one turn happens more often since you're re-roll 1s.
Finally:
As expected. You will spawn very slightly less broods and gants.
There is one benefit this brings. It will lower the number very small gant squads. That right there may make the change worth it. You're still going to have to take some more troops (2 warrior broods maybe).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/02 04:11:47
NamelessBard wrote: There is one benefit this brings. It will lower the number very small gant squads. That right there may make the change worth it. You're still going to have to take some more troops (2 warrior broods maybe).
The tradeoff is actually quite complicated. Tradeoff of bigger spawns/more reliable long term spawning.
If the tervigon is likely to die, you might not care as much about the increased odds of running out. From my experience, people are more likely to try and kill the tervigon when it still has spawning capacity... so it might be worth it to try and pump out a few more bodies early.
The other issue is that - in general - a big spawn early can potentially achieve more 'value' than any spawn at all on turn 5-6-7. It really depends on when you start spawning gants. Do you do it from turn one, or do you wait until the tervigon is a little closer?
A standard tervigon has a 69% chance to run out after two spawns, and an 83% chance to run out after 3.
An incubator node tervigon has a 74% chance to run out after two spawns, and an 87% chance to run out after 3.
So the dataslate tervigon is (in my opinion) marginally more likely to run out, and produces a couple more gants, which is worth it. Personally, I don't feel you can rely on a tervigon to either (a) be alive and (b) still have spawning capacity after turn 4.
The major drawback, in my mind, is that the incubator node tervigon is not scoring (as far as I can tell). That's huge.
2000 pts
Compel wrote:
Because in a universe where the basic weapon is a rocket propelled grenade machine gun, with gigantic battletanks, 5 kilometer long spaceships, huge robots and power armoured supersoldiers, the most powerful guy you want to field on a battlefield is a bloke in a pointy hat carrying a stick.
Actually it doesn't even need to be in the formation. The scuttling swarm says in the army not detachment. This mean that you could take min squads in the formation, a thirty man gant squad in the primary detachment. This allows the tervigon to be scoring and you can outflank with those gants using hive commander.
Verified by GW Digital Editions - the terma squad is 3, not 2. It will be amended this week.
Quote from their FB page from a poster-
Awesome release Eddie! I think you have all sufficiently pleased Hive Commanders everywhere. One question though - there is a discrepancy regarding Endless Swarm between the iTunes version and the eBook version through black library - one shows 3 Terma squads, and the other shows 2. Do you have an answer to this, or know when one will be available for download?
Games Workshop: Digital Editions Hi Nathan,
It is three squads, the eBook will be amended this week.
Apologies for any confusion.
Aww. Sadness, but not a big deal. Core Swarm is then 360, 375 if you buff the Warriors a touch. So, 720/750 for two Endless Swarms. If you play 1500 like we do locally, that still leaves 750 for the rest of your force, with 60 each 'gants and 'gaunts hurling themselves up the board, then returning lategame on a 4+ to secure your home objectives.
Eight flying monstrous creatures at 1750 sounds pretty terrifying.
It sounds terrifying but I fear it may also be terrifyingly fragile as well. Don't forget that five of them are T5 with a 4+ save so grounding them is going to hurt a lot. Still, will be interested to see how it performs at 1750.
Currently I'm waiting to put my 7 monstrous creatures on foot at 1500 into the field (fething league got me a bye in the first round because my opponent didn't actually have the points to play!)
Now only a CSM player.
2014/03/02 23:33:06
Subject: Re:Tyranid Vanguard - Rising Leviathan II
Question: Can units taken in the formation be used to satisfy the force org requirements? Such as, could Death Leaper from his assassin brood be used to fill your HQ requirement? Or is this not allowed since the formations seem to be outside the normal FOC?
2014/03/02 23:51:07
Subject: Re:Tyranid Vanguard - Rising Leviathan II
omerakk wrote: Question: Can units taken in the formation be used to satisfy the force org requirements? Such as, could Death Leaper from his assassin brood be used to fill your HQ requirement? Or is this not allowed since the formations seem to be outside the normal FOC?
They are completely separate detachments from your primary detachment, so you must still include an HQ and 2 Troops units for a legal army.
Been out of the game for awhile, trying to find time to get back into it.
I'm going to build the standard meta, plus 3 heavies.
Flyrant
Tervigon
30 Gants
Venomthrope
Flyrant
Harpy
Harpy
Crone
10 Gargs
10 Gargs
10 Gargs
Exocrine
Exocrine
Tyranofex
All the ground gribbles running straight for the enemy, while the flying Circus waits to pounce...Harpies- while not as strong as Crones, still bring spore mines to the table...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/03 01:45:39
"Good. Then we shall have our battle in the shaaaaaaaeeeee oh god it's eating my face aaaiiiieeee...."
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
Well, I was saving this for my own personal hive fleet, but in honor of the new Skyblight formation and the rest of the year featuring the skies turning black with the wings of Tyranid, I do hereby bequeath to you all the name of your collective Hive Fleets.
Not-so-Gentlebeings of the Hivemind, you may now welcome Hive Fleet Ziz.
(Behemoth and Leviathon are the Biblical giants of the land and sea, but Ziz is the giant of the air, an oft-overlooked Biblical creature who gets, like, three lines in the whole arrangement. While Behemoth came from the side in a great force and Leviathon stretched its many-tendril'd way up from below, Hive Fleet Ziz rules the skies and strikes from above the Galactic Rim. In the name of Ziz, go forth and devour!)
Wakshaani wrote: Well, I was saving this for my own personal hive fleet, but in honor of the new Skyblight formation and the rest of the year featuring the skies turning black with the wings of Tyranid, I do hereby bequeath to you all the name of your collective Hive Fleets.
Not-so-Gentlebeings of the Hivemind, you may now welcome Hive Fleet Ziz.
(Behemoth and Leviathon are the Biblical giants of the land and sea, but Ziz is the giant of the air, an oft-overlooked Biblical creature who gets, like, three lines in the whole arrangement. While Behemoth came from the side in a great force and Leviathon stretched its many-tendril'd way up from below, Hive Fleet Ziz rules the skies and strikes from above the Galactic Rim. In the name of Ziz, go forth and devour!)
Right now I'm going with Vesuvius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vesuvius). Initially it was because I had red carapaces, and so my hoards resembled the flow of Lava. Now, it is doubly significant, because just like volcanic ash, the Wings of my 'nids will turn day into a very, very long night.
2014/03/04 02:15:03
Subject: Re:Tyranid Vanguard - Rising Leviathan II
I think you need to support any formations list with elements from a normal army.
I also reckon, past lower point games of 1000-1500, getting larger squads of 15-20 gargoyles will be worthwhile; as otherwise they will still evaporate upon returning.
Total: 1850 points, 15 TL Large blasts with Pinning, 5 Scoring units, 3 Venoms for Shroud, 2 Crones for Anti air / mech.
Wow those really abuse FOC. 9 Fast Attack, and 12 Heavy Support respectively. Its almost like being Tau.
Here is the problem I have. I like your idea for the first list. However A. it is over in points.. B. If your flyrants get popped that whole army is dead in the water. You are All running just flyrants for an entire army of synapse. You gave them just three targets to bring the whole thing down on itself with loss of synapse. C. Three more chances to earn slay the Warlord. I don't know about you folks but the idea is not to give your opponent the opportunity to earn points.
Second I'm not sure if everyone realizes but those troops you think die and and come back from reserve have to be the entire Unit before that can happen. So if I'm Tau or Marines I am killing all of your gargoyles but 1 and then your stuck.
Your second list I didn't run the points cost but can someone confirm that your can have multiple formations of the Biovore broods because I thought it was only 1 formation of 3 biovores?
Still needs some tweaking but I like where you're headed
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/03/04 07:23:10
2014/03/04 11:06:26
Subject: Re:Tyranid Vanguard - Rising Leviathan II
Here is the problem I have. I like your idea for the first list. However A. it is over in points.. B. If your flyrants get popped that whole army is dead in the water. You are All running just flyrants for an entire army of synapse. You gave them just three targets to bring the whole thing down on itself with loss of synapse. C. Three more chances to earn slay the Warlord. I don't know about you folks but the idea is not to give your opponent the opportunity to earn points.
How do they get "three more chances to earn slay the Warlord"? You only get 1 Warlord.
I agree synapse is an issue there, though. It's probably worth dropping a Crone and upgrading the Termagant broods to Warriors with a Barbed Strangler. Any extra points can be used to beef up Gargoyle broods.
Second I'm not sure if everyone realizes but those troops you think die and and come back from reserve have to be the entire Unit before that can happen. So if I'm Tau or Marines I am killing all of your gargoyles but 1 and then your stuck.
If you ever want to recycle an almost-dead unit, just charge it into something. Even if it survives overwatch, low numbers of guants don't last long in melee and you can (maybe) bring the unit back next turn.
Your second list I didn't run the points cost but can someone confirm that your can have multiple formations of the Biovore broods because I thought it was only 1 formation of 3 biovores?
Still needs some tweaking but I like where you're headed
The formation says "3 Biovores" but doesn't make it clear if they have to be in the same brood or are taken as individual units. There's nothing to stop you taking multiple formations, though.
2014/03/04 14:46:11
Subject: Re:Tyranid Vanguard - Rising Leviathan II
Total: 1850 points, 15 TL Large blasts with Pinning, 5 Scoring units, 3 Venoms for Shroud, 2 Crones for Anti air / mech.
Wow those really abuse FOC. 9 Fast Attack, and 12 Heavy Support respectively. Its almost like being Tau.
Here is the problem I have. I like your idea for the first list. However A. it is over in points.. B. If your flyrants get popped that whole army is dead in the water. You are All running just flyrants for an entire army of synapse. You gave them just three targets to bring the whole thing down on itself with loss of synapse. C. Three more chances to earn slay the Warlord. I don't know about you folks but the idea is not to give your opponent the opportunity to earn points.
Second I'm not sure if everyone realizes but those troops you think die and and come back from reserve have to be the entire Unit before that can happen. So if I'm Tau or Marines I am killing all of your gargoyles but 1 and then your stuck.
Your second list I didn't run the points cost but can someone confirm that your can have multiple formations of the Biovore broods because I thought it was only 1 formation of 3 biovores?
Still needs some tweaking but I like where you're headed
A) does the formation cost more than the units inside it? Because if not, that list is 1850 points just like I posted. In the spoilers I added points costs for each unit.
B) I'm not sure you understand synapse. You still have to fail a leadership test for it to take effect. All of the FMC's are LD 10. And then the effects generally aren't that bad. Gargoyles and Gaunts will fail some of the time, and mostly not be able to assault. It was my thinking that with 3 Flyrants I could manage to keep 1 alive.
C) I'm sure you don't understand how slay the warlord works. Only 1 of the 3 flyrants is the warlord. Not all 3 of them. So there is still only 1 chance for the enemy to get Slay the warlord.
2nd) I'm thinking you are missing the point on Gargoyles. They aren't there to do damage. They are there to hold objectives. 1 Gargoyle holds an objective just as good as 10.
It probably isn't actually a list I would run if for no other reason than Crone / Harpies are freaking expensive ($80). Most likely I would drop a Crone for some Shrikes to provide fast synapse.
As an addition to the post above - if my opponent refuses to kill the final model in one of my scoring units, then I'll park that model on an objective and win the game with it. Win win scenario.
Been out of the game for awhile, trying to find time to get back into it.
2014/03/04 20:37:45
Subject: Re:Tyranid Vanguard - Rising Leviathan II
Yeah I think the first one is over by 30 points. You could drop 1 crone for room to breathe.
I also understand the synapse roll. I just try to eliminate those risks of having to take that roll.
Also Tetris I agree! I thought of that 2 after the fact. If you post them on objectives they most certainly will have to be killed otherwise it will be contested.
I personally like the idea of combining the 2 options and running a Prime somewhere in between. The prime would also save an extra 100 in points which could be used toward a crone. So run 2 Flyants and a Prime and make the Prime Warlord and park it somewhere cozy. So now you'll have the Biovores and Crones which will help bring the enemies out of the corners. And you'll have the Flyrants for going in after to pick them apart.
Possibly adding a Tervigon for the extra roll on 1 in the troop slot. Or some 195 point equivlant.
This makes me want to cry and sell my Dakka Fexes. My head hurts from the possibilities!
Does anyone see where I'm coming from here?
Can someone bring to light the army in my beautiful mind?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/03/04 20:55:51
The sky blight list points are right and the list is 1850. Not sure where you think the extra 30 points are coming from...
As to triple hive tyrants - you're actually protecting your warlord more by adding additional threats to the table. You can play the 2 non warlord flyrants more aggressively while keeping the important one hidden or only engaging light targets. As a tactic I think that would be a good list.
I'm happy that I'll be able to field 2 flyrants and a Swarmlord without going double FOC.
Been out of the game for awhile, trying to find time to get back into it.
Artillary Node
Exocrine
Biovore
Biovore
Biovore
3 Warriors (can attach to Prime to boost)
Sky Blight Swarm
Tyrant Wings (TL Devourers)
Crone
Harpy
Harpy
10 Gargoyles
10 Gargoyles
10 Gargoyles
And your right Tetris 1850 I had the troops cost for 30 not 20 which I'm used to.
Also this list may or may not be on the money. I don't have my book in front of me..
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/03/04 22:31:41
NOOOOOOO! 100 gants is bad enough, with those stupid flying bases and moving them around it would be a total nightmare. In about 3 hours with setting up you'd get about 2 turns in so not really viable.
You'd be better off with the 10 strong broods to be honest they are there to reclaim and/or recycle.
Strange that all the options were all pretty good apart from the re-roll 1s on tervigons which seems really pointless. Re-roll 1 dice or reroll 1 double a game makes it worth looking at, but rerolling 1s really makes no difference at all and possibly increases the chance of that double. Pinning biovores does have the downside of being forced to take an exocrine though, the warriors is a squad you'd happily take anyway.
"We didn't underestimate them but they were a lot better than we thought."
Sir Bobby Robson
I look at the Living Artillery Node the opposite way, I'll happily take an Exocrine and Biovores, the Warrior brood is the tax to me.
Biovores are already Pinning btw.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/06 09:24:08
Ailaros wrote: You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.
"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!"
2014/03/06 10:44:09
Subject: Re:Tyranid Vanguard - Rising Leviathan II
... meant to say pinning, twin-linked bivores .... The 3 warriors and BS for 100 points is a useful unit in a footslogging list for synapse cover and being a scoring unit. I am looking at whether sticking them on the bastion roof with a quadgun and giving synapse to the biovores behind is something I can use.
"We didn't underestimate them but they were a lot better than we thought."
Sir Bobby Robson
2000 pts
Dark Eldar 35,000pts
Craftworld Eldar 27,500pts
