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sirlynchmob wrote: yet bombs can not be made in the states as their are laws against buying them, and building them, or even using the word as by my use of the word the NSA is probably reading the thread now. Guns on the other hand can be sold to people who've had felony gun charges against them as no one even wants to do background checks to see who is buying these guns.
well, I think the una bomber, boston city bomber ect would argue with you... and its kinda off if you seriously think laws against bombs/guns/knives actually stop bat CRAZY people who will break the laws on murder.
you are also throwing a lot of crazy out there man, I never said more guns are always the answer, and most gun stores in the states do and or are required to check background...
all I am doing is identifying your particular brand of hoplophobia towards one method of mass murder over others.
I'm not the one going "oh look someone got stabbed, that justifies all the gun violence we have"
I never said it did, not insinuated it.. if you want to just make up crazy BS, that just furthers how illogical and crazy your thought process is. You are literally taking one source of mass murder, trying to ban its implement, and not others, seeing the futility of the later, but not the former.
I wanted to have a discussion about chinas mass murder problem, they have had far larger death tolls then the states, and a disturbing organization behind the killings, ... you are the one going off topic about how guns are the super special devil and kill people deader then people killed by knives.
The reason I want to talk about it is that these things are happening with disturbing frequency and even more disturbing, organization, in china. People there have been putting up with a pretty bad situation for a long time, and if you actually know people who live there, the situation really isnt going to get better soon.
that makes for over a hundred people killed barely a years time, by organized cells of terrorists/freedom fighters depending of how you see the struggle of this western most autonomous region of china as.
hmmmm borderline autonomous region of a country embroiled in a desperate battle to separate... some parallels to whats going on in crimea, as if we needed more stirring of the pot in the region.
sirlynchmob wrote: yet bombs can not be made in the states as their are laws against buying them, and building them, or even using the word as by my use of the word the NSA is probably reading the thread now. Guns on the other hand can be sold to people who've had felony gun charges against them as no one even wants to do background checks to see who is buying these guns.
well, I think the una bomber, boston city bomber ect would argue with you... and its kinda off if you seriously think laws against bombs/guns/knives actually stop bat CRAZY people who will break the laws on murder.
you are also throwing a lot of crazy out there man, I never said more guns are always the answer, and most gun stores in the states do and or are required to check background...
all I am doing is identifying your particular brand of hoplophobia towards one method of mass murder over others.
I'm not the one going "oh look someone got stabbed, that justifies all the gun violence we have"
I never said it did, not insinuated it.. if you want to just make up crazy BS, that just furthers how illogical and crazy your thought process is. You are literally taking one source of mass murder, trying to ban its implement, and not others, seeing the futility of the later, but not the former.
I wanted to have a discussion about chinas mass murder problem, they have had far larger death tolls then the states, and a disturbing organization behind the killings, ... you are the one going off topic about how guns are the super special devil and kill people deader then people killed by knives.
The reason I want to talk about it is that these things are happening with disturbing frequency and even more disturbing, organization, in china. People there have been putting up with a pretty bad situation for a long time, and if you actually know people who live there, the situation really isnt going to get better soon.
that makes for over a hundred people killed barely a years time, by organized cells of terrorists/freedom fighters depending of how you see the struggle of this western most autonomous region of china as.
hmmmm borderline autonomous region of a country embroiled in a desperate battle to separate... some parallels to whats going on in crimea, as if we needed more stirring of the pot in the region.
having sane laws against bombs keeps most of those bat CRAZY people from getting them. It works for bombs, it can work for guns as well.
Do you have any sources for the death tolls? because from what I can find, you're just all sorts of wrong:
Guns make mass murders easier and deadlier and more common. Yet amercia will allocate resources to cure rare diseases that only affect 1 or 2 people, and do absolutely nothing about gun violence. Not even so much as an awareness campaign, because that might affect gun sales.
sirlynchmob wrote: Guns on the other hand can be sold to people who've had felony gun charges against them as no one even wants to do background checks to see who is buying these guns. Any attempts to come up with a solution to all the gun violence gets shouted down by the people who are selling the guns and their followers.
You literally have no idea what you are talking about.
Obviously the work of fanatics in some guise or another, and really frightening that so many lunatics could get organised into carrying out the same act.
cincydooley wrote: And no, it's not "easier" to kill someone with a gun.
This is why the modern armies of the world have decided to hang up their guns, and arm their forces with knives and swords.
Cincy, you've been playing too much 40k, think that's the only place where your statement is true (also, in 2D side scrolling beat-em-ups)
sirlynchmob wrote: Guns on the other hand can be sold to people who've had felony gun charges against them as no one even wants to do background checks to see who is buying these guns. Any attempts to come up with a solution to all the gun violence gets shouted down by the people who are selling the guns and their followers.
You literally have no idea what you are talking about.
September 11th was a pretty effective mass killing that didn't need guns, they used box cutters to take over the planes and kill close to three thousand people.
People who want to kill others will find effective ways to do it with or without guns, even if it's as simple as bashing somebody's head in with a rock. According to the FBI crime stats in the US the number of people beaten to death each year with fists and bricks are more than double the number of deaths from guns. (and that doesn't included stabbings as they are a separate category)
If they really want to kill somebody they'll find a way.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/02 22:24:42
sirlynchmob wrote: Guns on the other hand can be sold to people who've had felony gun charges against them as no one even wants to do background checks to see who is buying these guns. Any attempts to come up with a solution to all the gun violence gets shouted down by the people who are selling the guns and their followers.
You literally have no idea what you are talking about.
Oh really? so what part am I wrong about?
The part about no one doing background checks. If you buy from a dealer with an FFL, a background check has to be done for every purchase. That is not the same thing as a felon getting their gun rights back after doing their time.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/02 22:19:41
And no, it's not "easier" to kill someone with a gun.
Think Cincy forgot the "aiming" part......I hope...
It is a medical fact that gunshot wounds are more damaging than knife wounds.
Just to expand on what Kilkrazy saying. A "round" can bounce around in a body or "fragment" upon entering the body. Then you have exit wounds..
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Yeah, a single bullet wound is far worse (medically) than a stab wound, meaning it carries a higher mortality rate.
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stanman wrote: September 11th was a pretty effective mass killing that didn't need guns, they used box cutters to take over the planes and kill close to three thousand people.
People who want to kill others will find effective ways to do it with or without guns, even if it's as simple as bashing somebody's head in with a rock. According to the FBI crime stats in the US the number of people beaten to death each year with fists and bricks are more than double the number of deaths from guns. (and that doesn't included stabbings as they are a separate category)
If they really want to kill somebody they'll find a way.
But it's a lot harder to do it with boxcutters than with guns.
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sirlynchmob wrote: Guns on the other hand can be sold to people who've had felony gun charges against them as no one even wants to do background checks to see who is buying these guns. Any attempts to come up with a solution to all the gun violence gets shouted down by the people who are selling the guns and their followers.
You literally have no idea what you are talking about.
Oh really? so what part am I wrong about?
The part about no one doing background checks. If you buy from a dealer with an FFL, a background check has to be done for every purchase. That is not the same thing as a felon getting their gun rights back after doing their time.
And how did obama's call to get background checks at gun shows go? Oh ya, it got shot down by the senate. So violent felons who do not have their rights back can still easily buy guns. Ok so some people actually do checks, amount of good it does when you can still get guns without them? None.
I'm not surprised by the show not wanting to do checks, I'm just surprised anyone in texas actually asked them to.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
stanman wrote: September 11th was a pretty effective mass killing that didn't need guns, they used box cutters to take over the planes and kill close to three thousand people.
People who want to kill others will find effective ways to do it with or without guns, even if it's as simple as bashing somebody's head in with a rock. According to the FBI crime stats in the US the number of people beaten to death each year with fists and bricks are more than double the number of deaths from guns. (and that doesn't included stabbings as they are a separate category)
If they really want to kill somebody they'll find a way.
Yes, and we now have a much stricter screening process for people getting on planes. Something was actually done to address the problem and a solution was implemented, to make it much harder for a repeat of it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/02 22:37:19
djones520 wrote: I wanted to post on this yesterday, but I didn't want it to devolve into a gun thing. Glad to see I was right in that it wouldn't take long.
Good call. It went full derp super fast and stayed there.
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stanman wrote: September 11th was a pretty effective mass killing that didn't need guns, they used box cutters to take over the planes and kill close to three thousand people.
People who want to kill others will find effective ways to do it with or without guns, even if it's as simple as bashing somebody's head in with a rock. According to the FBI crime stats in the US the number of people beaten to death each year with fists and bricks are more than double the number of deaths from guns. (and that doesn't included stabbings as they are a separate category)
If they really want to kill somebody they'll find a way.
But it's a lot harder to do it with boxcutters than with guns.
Not exactly, in a confined environment like a plane or a train a knife will often be far more effective than a gun. A knife is much faster and controllable in tight spaces and you never need to pause to reload, the advantage a gun has is it's range which in a close quarters situation becomes a disadvantage. The inside of a plane limits the number of people that can engage at a time, same with other crowded areas like train terminals or subway causeways. If you can control 2-3 people at a time it grants you the ability to channel and controls much greater numbers due to the restricted area.
A trained person with a knife in a confined environment can inflict fatal and disabling wounds far more easily than if they were using a gun.
They may have beefed up screening in the airports but it's still very easy to get knives into even the most secured facilities as knives can be made from non magnetic materials that don't register in metal detectors. I ride the train everyday to work and there are no security screenings, they are rather pathetic in their security details and it wouldn't be that hard for some nut case to take control over a train that during rush hours has hundreds or people on board.
Thankfully it hasn't happened yet, but if you look at countries like Spain mass attacks can happen very easily in train and subway stations. So far most of them have been committed with explosives (or gas in Japan) but they could very easily take over a train and force it to derail or crash into the stations themselves which could kill hundreds.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/03/02 22:59:16
Those poor people... their lives cut short by some maniacs just to prove some stupid point. My best to their families and let's hope the wounded recover.
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easysauce wrote: [
The reason I want to talk about it is that these things are happening with disturbing frequency and even more disturbing, organization, in china. People there have been putting up with a pretty bad situation for a long time, and if you actually know people who live there, the situation really isnt going to get better soon.
that makes for over a hundred people killed barely a years time, by organized cells of terrorists/freedom fighters depending of how you see the struggle of this western most autonomous region of china as.
hmmmm borderline autonomous region of a country embroiled in a desperate battle to separate... some parallels to whats going on in crimea, as if we needed more stirring of the pot in the region.
Silly off-topic arguments about gun violence aside, has there been any further developments with this? I know the Chinese government has officially blamed it on Xinjiang separatists, but is that statement even remotely credible? You seem to have a little knowledge about this issue, easysauce, but it's the first I've ever heard of it.
easysauce wrote: [
The reason I want to talk about it is that these things are happening with disturbing frequency and even more disturbing, organization, in china. People there have been putting up with a pretty bad situation for a long time, and if you actually know people who live there, the situation really isnt going to get better soon.
that makes for over a hundred people killed barely a years time, by organized cells of terrorists/freedom fighters depending of how you see the struggle of this western most autonomous region of china as.
hmmmm borderline autonomous region of a country embroiled in a desperate battle to separate... some parallels to whats going on in crimea, as if we needed more stirring of the pot in the region.
Silly off-topic arguments about gun violence aside, has there been any further developments with this? I know the Chinese government has officially blamed it on Xinjiang separatists, but is that statement even remotely credible? You seem to have a little knowledge about this issue, easysauce, but it's the first I've ever heard of it.
and thats just the large #'s that I can find, apparently the smaller # of victimes such as when this group targets just a few people, doesnt really make the news enough that I can find easy sources on the #'s...
but these three incidents alone make it over 100.. which is just scary...
also the same region in jan this year "Jume Tohtiniyaz, the Communist Party’s secretary for Ghaldir village in Aksu city’s Karatal township, was stabbed to death on the night of Jan. 22 by “separatists”"... (article) http://www.rfa.org/english/news/uyghur/deaths-02032014174649.html
so they are killing off the communist party leader ship as well, and realistically, this could be setting the stage for a real movement in china what with the general level of malcontent with the communist party in general.
so I mean, its actually a REALLY serious situation, and its not like they are going to just stop.... I have been following this and the ukraine bit for months now, and they both just fit the profile for powderkegs
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/03/02 23:46:23
I was going to devolve into bad puns and general snark.
Then I realized that these folks are applying the V For Vendetta school of government.
In many ways, this form of terrorism is so personal and precise that it is more terrifying for anyone attempting to suppress it.
Honestly, if someone is trying to kill you just for being American, of course you will go forth and try to kill them. On the other hand, if someone is stabbing everyone who stands against them, and only those who stand against them, then the choice to stand against them becomes a bit trickier.
I suppose my point is that if you must engage in asymmetrical warfare, precision violence is both more effective and more palatable than indiscriminate violence.
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AlmightyWalrus wrote: But it's a lot harder to do it with boxcutters than with guns.
Not really. The 9/11 hijackings depended on two things:
1) Access to the cockpit. If the door is open it doesn't matter what weapon you have, the pilots aren't going to be able to fight back. If the door is closed and locked properly then it doesn't matter what weapon you have, you aren't getting anywhere near the controls.
2) An assumption that a hijacking means ransom demands, so the best thing to do is cooperate, make sure nobody gets killed, and let someone else deal with the problem. Now that there's the precedent that getting hijacked means getting turned into an improvised cruise missile there will probably never be a successful 9/11-style hijacking again. Everyone knows that they're dead anyway, and even with a gun you can't fight off an angry mob of passengers who are perfectly willing to die to kill you. And of course the pilots know that they will never, under any circumstances, open the cockpit door.
Now, a gun might be better than a box cutter for killing the passengers, but if you just want to commit mass-murder against a helpless crowd you might as well just attack the people in the security checkpoint lines and not bother trying to sneak a weapon onto the plane.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Now, a gun might be better than a box cutter for killing the passengers, but if you just want to commit mass-murder against a helpless crowd you might as well just attack the people in the security checkpoint lines and not bother trying to sneak a weapon onto the plane.
Call of Duty style airport massacre.
Subway stations, train stations, sporting events, anywhere that large numbers of people gather make for ripe targets. While those places are usually much more open then the inside of a plane or train when people are in mass numbers their movements can be restricted and herded into kill zones, be it for guns, gas, explosives or just knives. A little bit of pre-planning goes a long way towards controlling crowds and increasing the potential fatality levels.
They've had plenty of riots where machete wielding gangs have inflicted huge death tolls, any type of weapon being used against an unarmed population can produce horrific results. People attempting to flee the scene even contribute to the damage as they panic and will stampede over others in an attempt to get away. (as witnessed in numerous soccer riots)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/03 00:19:44
djones520 wrote: I wanted to post on this yesterday, but I didn't want it to devolve into a gun thing. Glad to see I was right in that it wouldn't take long.
Good call. It went full derp super fast and stayed there.
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