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 Kanluwen wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

You do realize that the Griffon is 75 points right now, yes?

Exactly my point.

It'll be beautiful in its absurdity.

Yes, but the person who posted the Wyvern rumor states that the "Wyvern is 10 points less than a Griffon".
75-10 does not equal 100.

I did not see that.

Ravenous cleared it up for me though.

Kanluwen wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
As much as HQ Russes would be awesome, I imagine (although I hope I'm wrong) it refers to Pask-type characters, who command tanks.

I think tank-HQs are pretty much the realm of the ABG list.

So?

I'm not saying it's not possible, and I would actually love it if you really could take HQ Russes, but I don't think GW would want to compromise FW sales by essentially making ABG (a primary selling point of IA) an in-codex feature.

Assuming these are true, I'm glad Scion rules are in the codex.

Why do people think they won't be? Do you have to buy Codex: Space Marines to field Rhinos or Land Raiders in Dark Angels or Grey Knights?

Because there has been talk of the rules not being included, and also because I wouldn't put it past GW to try and sell us 2 £30 books rather than 1.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
Anyone want to take bets on the point cost of the Wyvern?

5 internetz says 100pts.

Its apparently going for 65pts.

Wow, that's...not completely awful.

Just mostly awful.

Units of 3 for 195pts, and assuming each template hits 3 guys is 18hits, 13 wounds or 4 dead marines a turn. All in all pretty situational and geared for killing orks and nids really.

 Ravenous D wrote:

assuming each template hits 3 guys

This is the hard part.

Its rather unlikely to get more than 1 against an opponent that's appropriately spaced out.

 Paradigm wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
As much as HQ Russes would be awesome, I imagine (although I hope I'm wrong) it refers to Pask-type characters, who command tanks.

I think tank-HQs are pretty much the realm of the ABG list.

So?

I'm not saying it's not possible, and I would actually love it if you really could take HQ Russes, but I don't think GW would want to compromise FW sales by essentially making ABG (a primary selling point of IA) an in-codex feature.

I think that calling the ABG army list a "primary selling point of IA" is a little much.

Assuming these are true, I'm glad Scion rules are in the codex.

Why do people think they won't be? Do you have to buy Codex: Space Marines to field Rhinos or Land Raiders in Dark Angels or Grey Knights?

Because there has been talk of the rules not being included, and also because I wouldn't put it past GW to try and sell us 2 £30 books rather than 1.

Were you forced to buy Codex: Space Marines to field Rhinos, Predators, Vindicators, or Land Raiders for Codex: Chaos Space Marines or Dark Angels?

That "talk" mostly centers around the fact that the Scions are not currently in the "Elites" section of the Imperial Guard webstore.

It also ignores that the WD with the rules for the Scions specifically talks about how "First rank fire! Second rank fire!' enables Tempestus Scions to get an extra shot from their hot-shot lasguns. While that contradicts what is in Codex: Imperial Guard right now, in the very near future Astra Militarum Officers will be able to do just that." and that Tempestor Primes are going to have "six Militarum Tempestus Orders that can be used exclusively by Tempestor Primes within a Militarum Tempestus Detachment. " and that the Taurox Prime "takes vehicle upgrades from the Astra Militarum vehicle equipment list".

 warboss wrote:
Every time I see one of those up on the swap shop or bartertown I cross my fingers that the person selling gets no more than $5-10 over the cost of the normal codex.

Seems kind of needlessly bitter.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
As much as HQ Russes would be awesome, I imagine (although I hope I'm wrong) it refers to Pask-type characters, who command tanks.

I think tank-HQs are pretty much the realm of the ABG list.

So?

I'm not saying it's not possible, and I would actually love it if you really could take HQ Russes, but I don't think GW would want to compromise FW sales by essentially making ABG (a primary selling point of IA) an in-codex feature.

I think that calling the ABG army list a "primary selling point of IA" is a little much.

Assuming these are true, I'm glad Scion rules are in the codex.

Why do people think they won't be? Do you have to buy Codex: Space Marines to field Rhinos or Land Raiders in Dark Angels or Grey Knights?

Because there has been talk of the rules not being included, and also because I wouldn't put it past GW to try and sell us 2 £30 books rather than 1.

Were you forced to buy Codex: Space Marines to field Rhinos, Predators, Vindicators, or Land Raiders for Codex: Chaos Space Marines or Dark Angels?

That "talk" mostly centers around the fact that the Scions are not currently in the "Elites" section of the Imperial Guard webstore.

Like I said, I didn't expect it, but on the other hand, at this point, I really wouldn't be surprised if GW decided to just put 'see Codex: Militarium Tempestus' and force us to buy 2 books.

 Paradigm wrote:

Because there has been talk of the rules not being included, and also because I wouldn't put it past GW to try and sell us 2 £30 books rather than 1.

That 'talk' is idle speculation and should be referred to as such.

 Paradigm wrote:

Because there has been talk of the rules not being included, and also because I wouldn't put it past GW to try and sell us 2 £30 books rather than 1.

Yes... "talk" started by a lurker who had all this stuff told "months ago" by his GW-inside buddy, but chose to come out with it now?

Credibility of that source makes Natfka look like CNN.

Bull0 wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:

Because there has been talk of the rules not being included, and also because I wouldn't put it past GW to try and sell us 2 £30 books rather than 1.

That 'talk' is idle speculation and should be referred to as such.

Zweischneid wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:

Because there has been talk of the rules not being included, and also because I wouldn't put it past GW to try and sell us 2 £30 books rather than 1.

Yes... "talk" started by a lurker who had all this stuff told "months ago" by his GW-inside buddy, but chose to come out with it now?

Credibility of that source makes Natfka look like CNN.

Fair enough. But as I say, it's not beyond GW to pull something like this.

Wyvern isn't bad. It's not a really good unit, but it's also not bad.

2 of them are 10 points under a hellhound, and 20 under an erradicator. Both of those hit with 6/4 ignore cover at s6. The 4small blasts can keep up when shooting xenos/geq.

2 of them are 30 under a collosus, or 3 of them are 35 over a collosus. The wyverns will out perform the collosus against t3 geq & xenos while the collosus will do better against meq.

I still prefer the griffon. Barrage is usually good enough to avoid walls, and I prefer rerolls to hit over rerolls to wound.

The problem with the Wyvern is the small blasts.

You have to assume a competent opponent who uses the available spacing and will be greater than an inch away from each model. That greatly reduces the effectiveness of the Wyvern compared to the (torrent) flamer template, or large blast variants available to the Guard.

Would it have killed them to have just done a Griffon kit?

Some orders reputedly leaked:

via Dex in Alaska on Faeit 212
"Take Aim": Gives the ordered unit Precision Shot
"Smite At Will": Gives the ordered unit Split Fire
"First Rank Second Rank": Ordered unit gains an additional attack with lasguns and hot-shot lasguns
"Forwards for the Emperor" After shooting, ordered unit must run even if they can't normally
"Move, Move, Move" Ordered unit must run, roll dice and use the highest.
"Suppressive Fire" Ordered unit's weapons have the pinning rule

Hmm. I'm on the fence about legitimacy of these orders, but I'm loving the sound of them.

We could have to roll to see which orders we get, or ones like "Take Aim" or "Forwards for the Emperor" could be character exclusive, or they could be purchaseable. Interesting.

Emphasis on some because reputedly there's more.

Loving the the alleged Suppressing Fire rule.
Take Aim should give rerolls to hit imo, but precision shots work as well.

Well, FRFSRF already was confirmed to "allow hot-shot lasguns to fire twice" so it might be legitimate.

The "Move, move move," is a lot like eldar battle focus.

 schadenfreude wrote:
Wyvern isn't bad. It's not a really good unit, but it's also not bad.

2 of them are 10 points under a hellhound, and 20 under an erradicator. Both of those hit with 6/4 ignore cover at s6. The 4small blasts can keep up when shooting xenos/geq.

2 of them are 30 under a collosus, or 3 of them are 35 over a collosus. The wyverns will out perform the collosus against t3 geq & xenos while the collosus will do better against meq.

I still prefer the griffon. Barrage is usually good enough to avoid walls, and I prefer rerolls to hit over rerolls to wound.

Your math leaves much to be desired. Two Wyverns at 65 points a piece is 130 points. Thats the same price as one hellhound (which is the better buy being a FAST vehicle at S6 AP4 Torrent) and only 10 points less than the colossus (which is also a better buy at S6 AP 3 Large Blast, Ordnance).

Owing to people not giving small blast the spacing necessary for multiple wounds (thank you 2" coherency), Large Blast will be far more effective at getting hits, with the higher strength/ap better chances of having wounds that stick.

The Wyvern, like the Taurox, fill a role that is already filled, and will receive a model when we've been screaming for years we want official griffon/medusa/colossus kits, not just the extra-pricey FW models.

 schadenfreude wrote:
Wyvern isn't bad. It's not a really good unit, but it's also not bad.

2 of them are 10 points under a hellhound, and 20 under an erradicator. Both of those hit with 6/4 ignore cover at s6. The 4small blasts can keep up when shooting xenos/geq.

2 of them are 30 under a collosus, or 3 of them are 35 over a collosus. The wyverns will out perform the collosus against t3 geq & xenos while the collosus will do better against meq.

I still prefer the griffon. Barrage is usually good enough to avoid walls, and I prefer rerolls to hit over rerolls to wound.

Two of them ( 2x 65 =130) equal the Hellhound and are 30 under an Eradicator, but i'm afraid it's only S4/AP6, not the other way around.

A Colossus is is 140, so two Wyverns are 10 less, not 30, while three of them are 55 more than a Colossus. I doubt the Wyvern will outperform any of the current artillery tanks.

Suppressing Fire and Take Aim sound somewhat usefull. Fire at will though......if something is in range of base guardsmen, you should be getting it dead dead, not looking to split flashlight fire.

I'm not seeing "Fire on my Target" or "Bring it Down" though....and I would be very upset to lose those orders. Those two orders have helped my guardsmen out too much to consider losing them, and gaining the Taurox, Wyvern, and Scions a fair trade. Hell, even the hot shot volley gun is pretty gak, unless you are in the habit of having your stormtroopers sitting back in a static gunline.

We know there are either 9 or 10 orders, thanks to the card pack being 10 cards.
Fire on my Target, Bring it Down, and Get Back in the fight could still be around.

 kir44n wrote:
Suppressing Fire and Take Aim sound somewhat usefull. Fire at will though......if something is in range of base guardsmen, you should be getting it dead dead, not looking to split flashlight fire.

I'm not seeing "Fire on my Target" or "Bring it Down" though....and I would be very upset to lose those orders. Those two orders have helped my guardsmen out too much to consider losing them, and gaining the Taurox, Wyvern, and Scions a fair trade. Hell, even the hot shot volley gun is pretty gak, unless you are in the habit of having your stormtroopers sitting back in a static gunline.

Split fire to the unit means one model can shoot at a different target, say letting that lascannon shoot at the tank while the rest of the men take lasgun potshots at something up to 24" away?

 kir44n wrote:
Suppressing Fire and Take Aim sound somewhat usefull. Fire at will though......if something is in range of base guardsmen, you should be getting it dead dead, not looking to split flashlight fire.

I'm not seeing "Fire on my Target" or "Bring it Down" though....and I would be very upset to lose those orders. Those two orders have helped my guardsmen out too much to consider losing them, and gaining the Taurox, Wyvern, and Scions a fair trade. Hell, even the hot shot volley gun is pretty gak, unless you are in the habit of having your stormtroopers sitting back in a static gunline.

Well, there's a rumor that we're going to see "Heavy Weapons Platoons" so Fire At Will might be for that, not just Lasguns.

 Blacksails wrote:
The problem with the Wyvern is the small blasts.

You have to assume a competent opponent who uses the available spacing and will be greater than an inch away from each model. That greatly reduces the effectiveness of the Wyvern compared to the (torrent) flamer template, or large blast variants available to the Guard.

The same logic indicates thudd guns and tfc are of no use. Max 2" coherency also greatly reduces damage from templates and large pie. Small pie is 3" so the 2nd and following shots can always catch 2 models.

I noticed earlier that kasrkin have also been removed from the mainsite along with the generic storm troopers, weather this means a finecast re-release (unlikely imo seeing as finecast appears to be phasing out) or theyre going to be removed and retconned into scions or veterans with carapace armour is anyones guess. Just thought i'd point it out.

 schadenfreude wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
The problem with the Wyvern is the small blasts.

You have to assume a competent opponent who uses the available spacing and will be greater than an inch away from each model. That greatly reduces the effectiveness of the Wyvern compared to the (torrent) flamer template, or large blast variants available to the Guard.

The same logic indicates thudd guns and tfc are of no use. Max 2" coherency also greatly reduces damage from templates and large pie. Small pie is 3" so the 2nd and following shots can always catch 2 models.

Thudd guns have double the shots and cost less though. They also take up a far less valuable FOC slot, and have shell shock

 Kanluwen wrote:

 kir44n wrote:
Suppressing Fire and Take Aim sound somewhat usefull. Fire at will though......if something is in range of base guardsmen, you should be getting it dead dead, not looking to split flashlight fire.

I'm not seeing "Fire on my Target" or "Bring it Down" though....and I would be very upset to lose those orders. Those two orders have helped my guardsmen out too much to consider losing them, and gaining the Taurox, Wyvern, and Scions a fair trade. Hell, even the hot shot volley gun is pretty gak, unless you are in the habit of having your stormtroopers sitting back in a static gunline.

Well, there's a rumor that we're going to see "Heavy Weapons Platoons" so Fire At Will might be for that, not just Lasguns.

While an interesting idea on the Heavy Weapons Platoons, I can't see it effectively happening. Heavy Weapons Squads are rare enough as it is when they can be scoring. Making them non-scoring,AND having then compete for the same Heavy slots as tanks and artillery would be utterly asinine. I'm not saying it couldn't happen.....but it would be just another reason to continue playing with my 5th edition dex instead of 6th. Some of the rumors for 6th guard up to this point really are rather......pathetic.

 plastictrees wrote:
First stage is buying 5 Tauroxes...tauroxi?

Tauroxen

Having seen the all-around pics....taken as a whole, I still think it looks like arse. However, I like enough of the design elements that I'll probably keep an eye-out for a cheapo deal for a salvage job off ebay that I can convert into a civilian vehicle to use as terrain in INQ28 games.

Bobug wrote:
I noticed earlier that kasrkin have also been removed from the mainsite along with the generic storm troopers, weather this means a finecast re-release (unlikely imo seeing as finecast appears to be phasing out) or theyre going to be removed and retconned into scions or veterans with carapace armour is anyones guess. Just thought i'd point it out.

 schadenfreude wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
The problem with the Wyvern is the small blasts.

You have to assume a competent opponent who uses the available spacing and will be greater than an inch away from each model. That greatly reduces the effectiveness of the Wyvern compared to the (torrent) flamer template, or large blast variants available to the Guard.

The same logic indicates thudd guns and tfc are of no use. Max 2" coherency also greatly reduces damage from templates and large pie. Small pie is 3" so the 2nd and following shots can always catch 2 models.

Thudd guns have double the shots and cost less though. They also take up a far less valuable FOC slot, and have shell shock

FW atrillery is far superior to all standard gw tanks, and thudds got moved to hs. My point still stands on small pie,

Also on a previous comment I had a brain fart and was thinking manticore price in place of a col, and hellhounds almost always clock in 10 points above stock price

 Maxurugi wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
Wyvern isn't bad. It's not a really good unit, but it's also not bad.

2 of them are 10 points under a hellhound, and 20 under an erradicator. Both of those hit with 6/4 ignore cover at s6. The 4small blasts can keep up when shooting xenos/geq.

2 of them are 30 under a collosus, or 3 of them are 35 over a collosus. The wyverns will out perform the collosus against t3 geq & xenos while the collosus will do better against meq.

I still prefer the griffon. Barrage is usually good enough to avoid walls, and I prefer rerolls to hit over rerolls to wound.

Two of them ( 2x 65 =130) equal the Hellhound and are 30 under an Eradicator, but i'm afraid it's only S4/AP6, not the other way around.

A Colossus is is 140, so two Wyverns are 10 less, not 30, while three of them are 55 more than a Colossus. I doubt the Wyvern will outperform any of the current artillery tanks.

If those options remain in the codex, you are right, it makes little sense. Given that GW has fallen into the habit of removing entries from their books that do not have a model, it could mean the Wyvern is taking the place of those variants, effective or not. By the by, is the Basilisk a direct-only still?

 Mr.Omega wrote:

We could have to roll to see which orders we get, or ones like "Take Aim" or "Forwards for the Emperor" could be character exclusive, or they could be purchaseable.

The trend does seem to be for this stuff to be random this edition. Which would be totally rubbish for this but I still think they'd probably do it. "Oh, this Lieutenant only knows how to tell his men to do suppressing fire this game, but last game he knew how to tell them to fire and advance. Because of reasons, yeah. Selective amnesia or something, I guess"

The most sensible system would be some variation on the current book's, where there's a pool of orders for junior officers and another for senior officers.

 schadenfreude wrote:


FW atrillery is far superior to all standard gw tanks, and thudds got moved to hs. My point still stands on small pie,

Thudd guns are also more durable, have more shots, and are cheaper, as well as having better AP.

TFC fill a role not well covered in the marine book and has built in versatility to be effective against a wide variety of units.

The Wyvern has none of these things. It does something everything else in the book does, but worse, in a slot heavily contested with better, more versatile options.