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FatBoyNoSlim wrote:
Outflanking platoons are still viable as we have not heard of anything saying that Creed no longer allows one unit to outflank.

It is speculation that it works this way, and even if it does it commits you to taking Creed, which may not be an appealing option in the new codex. Plus, the Al'rahem lists from the current codex can take both him and Creed, to outflank a supporting unit along with the platoon.

And the changes to conscripts points, combined with the points being saved by not paying for send in the next wave and Chenkov means that whilst you can not get infinite men, you can field a lot more conscripts to start off with. Also nothing is stopping a foot general from putting some of his conscripts in reserve and bringing them on as a "next wave" if they are worried about a crowed DZ.

But it's still a pointless nerf. SITNW might not be point-efficient compared to new conscripts, but it was fun. Now the character is gone for no good reason, and you have to try to approximate the same effect some other way.

In fact I would argue in favour of this codex being better to for foot guard as the ability to put cheap priest and commisars in conscripts and giving them massive buffs is a huge boost to that unit. add to this the order to "move shoot and run" and those foot slogging conscipts have the potential to move up field quickly!

Who cares about priests and commissars? You've already got inquisitors available, and even if it works it's an incredibly one-dimensional list. That's not very impressive as the best part of the new codex.

Combine this with the rumours of HWS being only 45 points to start (coming with 3x morters) and we getting some serious fire power.

Even cheap HWS are still bad. It's still a BS 3 unit with no extra wounds, extreme vulnerability to instant death, and no mobility. Dropping the cost a bit doesn't do anything to fix the real problems with them in the current codex.

with by Platoon squads with AC and GL

Eww, no. AC/GL is how you waste units. Never do this if you want to win.

HWS armed with Rockets for AA

Eww, no. Flak missiles are stupidly overpriced. I can't think of a single situation where I'd want to use them. Even snap firing LCs is probably a better plan, if you're stubbornly determined to keep real AA units out of your list.

I can't remember if Hydras have gone down in points from 75 but I only just realised that the Marine Stalker costs 75 points and is just far and away better at AA than the new Hydra and more durable.

Hydra: BS3, 4 TL Autocannon shots. Armour 12, 10, 10 & open-topped.

Stalker: BS4, 4 TL Autocannon shots, Armour 12, 12, 10 not open-topped and can fire 4 shots at two different targets at BS2 if it wants (which I use for causing grounding tests). Plus a Stormcannon array is ONE weapon not two twin-linked weapons like the Hydra so you can move 6" and still fire at full BS all 4 shots.

Yes you can't squadron them but that's just sad how much worse the new Hydra is compared to all other dedicated AA choices since 6th hit.

At 50 points I'd consider a squadron of 3 for the price of 2 old Hydras just so there is one to explode as soon as the enemy airpower arrives.

Wait...Punisher Leman Russes gained shred? I...um...the Leman Russ I like just got awesome. Back to buying the book!!

I'll just get permission from friends to run Marbo identical to his 5th edition statline.

 Peregrine wrote:

Biophysical wrote:
The same 6 plasma guns in the 6th edition codex costs 270 points.

Except it doesn't just cost 270 points, because you're ignoring the cost of the transport. The current codex is 340 points for two plasma vet squads in Chimeras, the new codex is 465 points, a 36% increase. And that's if you're using Chimeras. Valkyries make it even more expensive, and of course Vendettas aren't an option at all anymore.

I specifically said mech vets were worse, and then specifically said I was just examining foot vets.

Exact Leman Russ costs, from L'astropate:

150 LRBT
130 Exterminator
135 Vanquisher
120 Eradicator
170 Demolisher
140 Punisher
155 Executioner

Henry says they're in the exact order as the 5th ed Codex, which either means the above as the tanks are laid out on the non-cost page or:

120/130 -LRBT/Exterminator
135 - Vanquisher
140- Eradicator
150- Demolisher
155-Punisher
170-Executioner

This, in the same order of rising costs as in 5th

For the first changed the points in order as the old codex 150 130 135 120 170 140 155 and there are psikers with divination

http://astropate.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/nuova-astra-militarum-foto-del-codex-e.html

I'm also wondering now if the Hydra never lost its ignores jink saves rule, and if the rule has instead been moved to the weapon profile (where hence it would be explained in the armoury), as is the new trend in 6th.

 TheKbob wrote:


The concept of getting them a 4+ save, or more bodies AND a 4+ armor save is something to think about. However, a lot of the game's current "better" things are usually S6-7, Ap4. Thus the extra points may be a waste. Time will tell on that one.

Camo cloaks may be a better option. I don't know right now, and it probably depends on a lot of factors. Either way, there's a certain amount of synergy with Armored Sentinels that's probably worth thinking about.

Rob451 wrote:
I can't remember if Hydras have gone down in points from 75 but I only just realised that the Marine Stalker costs 75 points and is just far and away better at AA than the new Hydra and more durable.

Hydra: BS3, 4 TL Autocannon shots. Armour 12, 10, 10 & open-topped.

Stalker: BS4, 4 TL Autocannon shots, Armour 12, 12, 10 not open-topped and can fire 4 shots at two different targets at BS2 if it wants (which I use for causing grounding tests). Plus a Stormcannon array is ONE weapon not two twin-linked weapons like the Hydra so you can move 6" and still fire at full BS all 4 shots.

Yes you can't squadron them but that's just sad how much worse the new Hydra is compared to all other dedicated AA choices since 6th hit.

At 50 points I'd consider a squadron of 3 for the price of 2 old Hydras just so there is one to explode as soon as the enemy airpower arrives.

Good points, I expect we're missing something on the Hydra's rules after reading this. Sucks if GW didn't consider this but it won't stop me from using them.

If the rumour that ignores jink is gone is true, the only real advantages the Hydra's getting is the ability to be squadroned and a heavy bolter, which is pretty sucky.

 B0B MaRlEy wrote:
For what it's worth GW's weird translation team decided to not translate 90% of the units names (they're in english).
This team had a trend of not translating the vehicles, which could be argued for (marines vehicles for example never were translated, but all other races' were) but now even infantry squads aren't translated anymore, which just looks stupide with the french fluff text right under it.
Sigh


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, were the relics revealed? I've had a glance at them

I dont think so. at least i haddent seen them.

anything good?

Cheaper Russes seem cool. Pask in an Exterminator with HB, assuming he's 70 as rumoured and the HB prices didn't change, clocks in at 220 points and sounds positively deadly.

May well be too little, too late though, for this codex. I'm still not convinced that a buff to a handful of units is enough to cancel the outright deletion of several fun, effective and useful options.

I'm hoping the Hydra has some benefits to it, I really do. If it loses jink the jink rule, then the Hydra becomes a pure point sink if your enemy doesn't bring any flyers. Because to make up for the durability of 1 hydra, you know you'd be taking 2-3 at 140-210 points.

Compare that to a Bastion with quad gun. Bastion is AV 14 building, using a 48" Twinlinked 4 shot AC with skyfire & interceptor. For 125 points. Alternatively you can have an aegis with quad gun for 100 points.

And if your gaming group allows, take the imperial strongpoint and take both and Aegis and Bastion with Quad Guns for 225 points. Now you have 2/3rds the firepower of a Hydra battery, but more durable (at least for the bastion) that also has interceptor, allowing them to shoot oncoming flyers, or harass enemy ground at full BS. For 15 less points then 3 hydras. Oh, and all this is NOT using one of your Heavy Support slots.

I will also point out that Platoon Commanders have BS 4, so these guns can be at BS4 even if you go with blob squads instead of vets.

I'm hoping that we might see a skyfire change in the future (like, making them choose air or land and haivng interceptor only grant shots on incoming aircraft). Otherwise those playing with the expanded rules quite simply have better options available.

The points costs on the Russes seem low. I wonder if they'll lose Heavy or something. I don't expect it, it just seems like 20-30 point drops are a lot to get without a corresponding loss in ability.

On the other hand wouldnt the Hydra without interceptor for around 75 points be the equivalent of the current SM Stalker? Trading in side armor for longer range on the weapons?

 Desubot wrote:

 B0B MaRlEy wrote:
For what it's worth GW's weird translation team decided to not translate 90% of the units names (they're in english).
This team had a trend of not translating the vehicles, which could be argued for (marines vehicles for example never were translated, but all other races' were) but now even infantry squads aren't translated anymore, which just looks stupide with the french fluff text right under it.
Sigh


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, were the relics revealed? I've had a glance at them

I dont think so. at least i haddent seen them.

anything good?

Honestly nothing struck me as awesome, there's a meh pistol (S5 AP 4 ?), A relic that helps out your order-giving (Auto-reliquary or something equally silly) , a very expensive one that allows units very close (I think it was 6") to choose to pass or fail leadershop checks (probably morale, it'd be silly otherwise) (60 points IIRC), an ok one granting a few special rules to the bearer (IWND, EW?) for 30 points. The good thing was that they were quite cheap, except the one I mentionned. Nothing awe-inspiring though

 Sir Arun wrote:
On the other hand wouldnt the Hydra without interceptor for around 75 points be the equivalent of the current SM Stalker? Trading in side armor for longer range on the weapons?

The longer range on the weapons is largely irrelevant outside of an Apoc game, and the Stalker has BS4 and its split-fire rule too.

 Paradigm wrote:
Cheaper Russes seem cool. Pask in an Exterminator with HB, assuming he's 70 as rumoured and the HB prices didn't change, clocks in at 220 points and sounds positively deadly.

May well be too little, too late though, for this codex. I'm still not convinced that a buff to a handful of units is enough to cancel the outright deletion of several fun, effective and useful options.

The loss of the artillery sucks, but I don't own any of the models thankfully (have been planning on buying some forever but tend to just use my friend's or proxy them with Chimeras). I do have a bunch of Russes and they look to be more useful, so I guess I made out pretty well there. I'm hoping that they at least buff a few of the more useless remaining units and release a codex that can be played in a few different ways. I actually purchased a decent sized Grey Knight army earlier this year because I was getting sick of setting up, pushing around, and packing up a hundred models every game. It'll be just my luck that the update will make massive Conscript/Priest/Commissar blobs the only viable option in anything more than a fluff game.

The characters are more of a personal preference to me though - I used Marbo almost every game so I'm pretty that he's gone, there better be a dataslate! Harker I used on occasion, and did go so far as to convert a model for him but I can deal with not having him. Al'Rahem and Chenkov with his much fluff and very Russia were more of an entertaining side show for me and never really changed the game. Bastonne and Kamir were useless IMO and I never bothered to use them.

From a practical standpoint I won't be bothered too much by the special character losses and can probably convince my friends to let me use old Marbo, but having plenty of unique flavor is part of what gives the guard so much character and makes them so much fun. I won't say I used all of those fun options all the time, but there's something to be said for having the option. For now, I guess we can hope for dataslates to replace some of the losses, but it's ridiculous that they shouldn't just be included in the codex and will cost us more in the future if GW goes down that road...

I'll still buy it, but I never pre-ordered and will stop by the FLGS to at least give it a look first.

I still want my Solar Macharius back....I have the model, I want rules for him.

Biophysical wrote:
The points costs on the Russes seem low. I wonder if they'll lose Heavy or something. I don't expect it, it just seems like 20-30 point drops are a lot to get without a corresponding loss in ability.

If the points are dropping without any other change in rules, it is just to make up for the change of Lumbering Behemoth to Heavy. When the previous prices were chosen, a Russ could fire all it's guns every turn; Ordnance Russes can't do that any more and they deserve a price break if Lumbering Behemoth isn't returning.

can someone do the math?

3 heavy bolters firing at bs 3 wont kill much more than 3 heavy bolters firing at bs 1, will they?

Biophysical wrote:
The points costs on the Russes seem low. I wonder if they'll lose Heavy or something. I don't expect it, it just seems like 20-30 point drops are a lot to get without a corresponding loss in ability.

I could see them dropping a hull point, to make them 3HP like most other tanks.

3 BS3 HB against marines = ~1 dead marine

3 BS1 HB against marines = ~0.33 dead marines.

 Sir Arun wrote:
can someone do the math?

3 heavy bolters firing at bs 3 wont kill much more than 3 heavy bolters firing at bs 1, will they?

Well, three times as much. But it's three times "not a lot," so....

AGainst Orks (the prime target): 9 shots at Bs1: 1.5 hits, 1.25 wounds. 9 shots at BS3: 4.5 hits, 3.75 wounds.

 Thatguyoverthere wrote:

Biophysical wrote:
The points costs on the Russes seem low. I wonder if they'll lose Heavy or something. I don't expect it, it just seems like 20-30 point drops are a lot to get without a corresponding loss in ability.

I could see them dropping a hull point, to make them 3HP like most other tanks.

Ridiculously, they already have only 3 hull points. As far as I can recall only Land Raiders and Battlewagons have 4.

Leman Russ tanks have always had 3 Hull Points, unless I've missed something for two years.

tomjoad wrote:

 Thatguyoverthere wrote:

Biophysical wrote:
The points costs on the Russes seem low. I wonder if they'll lose Heavy or something. I don't expect it, it just seems like 20-30 point drops are a lot to get without a corresponding loss in ability.

I could see them dropping a hull point, to make them 3HP like most other tanks.

Ridiculously, they already have only 3 hull points. As far as I can recall only Land Raiders and Battlewagons have 4.

Biophysical wrote:Leman Russ tanks have always had 3 Hull Points, unless I've missed something for two years.

... Well gak.

I am still not seeing where Marbo has gone away.

 tomjoad wrote:

 Thatguyoverthere wrote:

Biophysical wrote:
The points costs on the Russes seem low. I wonder if they'll lose Heavy or something. I don't expect it, it just seems like 20-30 point drops are a lot to get without a corresponding loss in ability.

I could see them dropping a hull point, to make them 3HP like most other tanks.

Ridiculously, they already have only 3 hull points. As far as I can recall only Land Raiders and Battlewagons have 4.

Monoliths and both types of Necron Arks also have 4.

 Anpu42 wrote:
I am still not seeing where Marbo has gone away.

That's cause he's too damn sneaky.


But here it is: http://natfka.blogspot.com/2014/04/astra-militarum-vendetta-and-sly-marbo.html

If the basic LRBT is still unchanged at 150 points, they may have changed the cannon from ordnance to heavy 1. Otherwise, I see no point in taking it over exterminator or executioner, or ... well any other Leman Russ without ordnance.

These prices levels are outstanding, for I viewed russes as already worth their points, and counting among the rare vehicles still worth their points, still worth playing in 6th edition. Now they are so tempting and easy to include in army lists. Considering these prices, I would be very surprised to not see Leman Russes widely played in Guard top tournaments lists.

 rabidguineapig wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
I am still not seeing where Marbo has gone away.

That's cause he's too damn sneaky.


But here it is: http://natfka.blogspot.com/2014/04/astra-militarum-vendetta-and-sly-marbo.html

Ok, so we are trusting natfka again I see.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 rabidguineapig wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
I am still not seeing where Marbo has gone away.

That's cause he's too damn sneaky.


But here it is: http://natfka.blogspot.com/2014/04/astra-militarum-vendetta-and-sly-marbo.html

Ok, so we are trusting natfka again I see.

Yeah that's basically all anyone is going on as far as I know. Really hoping he Commando'd his way into the dex.