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 Ravenous D wrote:
It also has to do with paying for the sins of 3.5, those were the glory days of chaos where you actually saw the other legions on the table.

I'm still waiting for Eldar to have to suffer their time in shame for all the seasons they've gone godmod in (I'm also waiting for the day where the legion or unit Thousand Sons are actually not bad. I think I'll be waiting a long time though)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bellzo wrote:
Plot armour confers a 2+ invul. Check it out in the war gear section.

Nonsense! That would imply certain daemons having a higher invuln save! No, it's a special rule permitting your regular saves and then plot save which is a re-rollable 2++ invuln (yes this means you can get 2 invuln saves)

Its because Eldar have been the marine equalizer since 2nd, well, until they clusterfucked the game anyway.

TheCustomLime wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
The Hotshot Volley Gun is also said to be the perfect tool to kill renegade Marines.

I would assume for loyalists the lasers would bounce harmlessly off their plot armor.

Yes, let's ignore the plot-armoured IG (E.g Cain, Gaunt) in favour of assuming that the plot armour always lies with SM to such a great degree that the plot armour of other races are negligible.



If you are going to base your arguments on cherrypicking at least say you are doing so instead of presenting it as some kind of objective absolute statement a lá

Bobthehero wrote:The new Scion codex mentions the Hellgun being able to punch through Ceramite, therefore it can punch through PA.

And I thought the SM fans were the ones who were supposed to be doing the fanboying around here?

Seems not.

By all means, use your codex as a supposedly flawless source when you happily dismiss arguments taken from the SM codex as 'codex bias'.

The hypocrisy is so blatant it's almost sickening.

 Ashiraya wrote:

TheCustomLime wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
The Hotshot Volley Gun is also said to be the perfect tool to kill renegade Marines.

I would assume for loyalists the lasers would bounce harmlessly off their plot armor.

Yes, let's ignore the plot-armoured IG (E.g Cain, Gaunt) in favour of assuming that the plot armour always lies with SM to such a great degree that the plot armour of other races are negligible.



If you are going to base your arguments on cherrypicking at least say you are doing so instead of presenting it as some kind of objective absolute statement a lá

Bobthehero wrote:The new Scion codex mentions the Hellgun being able to punch through Ceramite, therefore it can punch through PA.

And I thought the SM fans were the ones who were supposed to be doing the fanboying around here?

Seems not.

By all means, use your codex as a supposedly flawless source when you happily dismiss arguments taken from the SM codex as 'codex bias'.

The hypocrisy is so blatant it's almost sickening.

I think the joke was talking about how it penetrates through CSM armor but it doesn't work against SM because of plot armor reasons. IG will often have plot armor but it was looking more at two units that are supposed to be weak to hellguns.

Considering hellguns are Ap3, it seems to make sense that it'd be capable of punching through PA. Problem being is that it's strength isn't high enough to do reliable damage. So maybe something like taking 3 shots average to down a foe (not at the same point, but more due to getting enough power to pen the armor and then seriously injure the marien to make them either dead or too injured to fight on)

Mmmm, I think there's a difference between saying the laser is strong enough to punch through ceramite and saying Dolie McDoogle the SM conquers a planet on his own.

I mean, you could argue that boltguns are not rocket firing gun because the codex are unreliable.

Edit 2: For that matter, I doubt the 3rd Alphic Jackals really made that out-of-orbit jump or that there was only 190 Scions to stop that Thousand Sons warband, or for that matter, that the Scions really managed to guess 67% of the Eldar tactics.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Mmmm, I think there's a difference between saying the laser is strong enough to punch through ceramite and saying Dolie McDoogle the SM conquers a planet on his own.

I mean, you could argue that boltguns are not rocket firing gun because the codex are unreliable.

Edit 2: For that matter, I doubt the 3rd Alphic Jackals really made that out-of-orbit jump or that there was only 190 Scions to stop that Thousand Sons warband, or for that matter, that the Scions really managed to guess 67% of the Eldar tactics.

Curious question, did they elaborate the size of the Thousand Son warband? (curious because some are described and actually extremely outrageous. If left vague, I could say from 30-400 Ksons. Heck, I could add in Tzeentch marines and armadas of cultists if I wanted t. I could also go on to explain the 190 Scions DSing in and doing a all or nothing tactics to weaken the warband leading to the scions and Guardsman forces besting the foe.

StarTrotter wrote:

Considering hellguns are Ap3, it seems to make sense that it'd be capable of punching through PA. Problem being is that it's strength isn't high enough to do reliable damage. So maybe something like taking 3 shots average to down a foe (not at the same point, but more due to getting enough power to pen the armor and then seriously injure the marien to make them either dead or too injured to fight on)

Game mechanics are entirely irrelevant, unless you're arguing that a Grot parries every third blow made by Lelith Hesperax.

Bobthehero wrote:Mmmm, I think there's a difference between saying the laser is strong enough to punch through ceramite and saying Dolie McDoogle the SM conquers a planet on his own.

I mean, you could argue that boltguns are not rocket firing gun because the codex are unreliable.

Edit 2: For that matter, I doubt the 3rd Alphic Jackals really made that out-of-orbit jump or that there was only 190 Scions to stop that Thousand Sons warband, or for that matter, that the Scions really managed to guess 67% of the Eldar tactics.

I can't remember a Marine ever having conquered a planet alone.

 Ashiraya wrote:

StarTrotter wrote:

Considering hellguns are Ap3, it seems to make sense that it'd be capable of punching through PA. Problem being is that it's strength isn't high enough to do reliable damage. So maybe something like taking 3 shots average to down a foe (not at the same point, but more due to getting enough power to pen the armor and then seriously injure the marien to make them either dead or too injured to fight on)

Game mechanics are entirely irrelevant, unless you're arguing that a Grot parries every third blow made by Lelith Hesperax.

Bobthehero wrote:Mmmm, I think there's a difference between saying the laser is strong enough to punch through ceramite and saying Dolie McDoogle the SM conquers a planet on his own.

I mean, you could argue that boltguns are not rocket firing gun because the codex are unreliable.

Edit 2: For that matter, I doubt the 3rd Alphic Jackals really made that out-of-orbit jump or that there was only 190 Scions to stop that Thousand Sons warband, or for that matter, that the Scions really managed to guess 67% of the Eldar tactics.

I can't remember a Marine ever having conquered a planet alone.

I was focusing on the ap3 part. That's not really something that is handed out to many units unless they were built to hurt heavily armored units frequently. It's an oddity simply due to it being the, possibly, rarest form of ap in the game (maybe ap1 is rarer? Regardless, even with that, most ap3 weapons are rather bad). So, the fact it exists, in combination with references to ceramite, make it highly likely that the answer is so.

As for your next statement, I'd have to flip a book but I think the chaos book references one SM surviving a chaos daemon onslaught and changing everything for that planet into hope of humans winning. It's a small caption though. That said, there's a reason why the jokes of 5 man tactical marine squads and 10 man marine squads saving planets/conquering planets is so popular. Discounting the SPACE MARINE game for basically making it a one man rescue of the planet (for the fun of the game mind you), fluffwise, SM do get a bit OTT wiping out CSM as they do in the Space Marine movie and conquering planets with ease or even outfighting a group of IG and SoB in a rather idiotic fashion. There's also some captions, I believe, of something like a small unit of Space Marines slaughtering hundreds, or was it a thousand DE with relative ease.

 StarTrotter wrote:

I was focusing on the ap3 part. That's not really something that is handed out to many units unless they were built to hurt heavily armored units frequently. It's an oddity simply due to it being the, possibly, rarest form of ap in the game (maybe ap1 is rarer? Regardless, even with that, most ap3 weapons are rather bad). So, the fact it exists, in combination with references to ceramite, make it highly likely that the answer is so.

And Straken has a godmode bionic arm that gives him strength 6, so he is as strong as a Dreadknight, right? Right? You can see that directly when you put the models next to each other!

Oh, and it gives him toughness 4, protection equivalent of Power Armour, AND AP2 in melee, AND armourbane.

Seems reasonable, rofl.

Right.

It's still a game mechanic.

It can just as easily be some arbitrary stat change to prevent Stormtroopers from having absolutely disastrous attack power in the game.

 StarTrotter wrote:

As for your next statement, I'd have to flip a book but I think the chaos book references one SM surviving a chaos daemon onslaught and changing everything for that planet into hope of humans winning. It's a small caption though.

One SM making the difference, pushing the fight over the edge =/= one SM capturing a planet.

 StarTrotter wrote:
Discounting the SPACE MARINE game for basically making it a one man rescue of the planet (for the fun of the game mind you)

Except Space Marine was, aside from the sequences where you fought Chaos Astartes (And possibly the final boss fight), an entirely believable game. As a Space Marine Captain you often had your command squad with you and you rarely fought more than a dozen foes at once. And when you did, it was almost only orks or traitor guard. You killed a lot, but you killed a little at a time.

 StarTrotter wrote:
fluffwise, SM do get a bit OTT wiping out CSM as they do in the Space Marine movie and conquering planets with ease or even outfighting a group of IG and SoB in a rather idiotic fashion.

But a cranky old man dueling the mightiest warboss in the galaxy is a-ok, since it is IG and IG can't do wrong.

Oh, and the Ultramarines movie is awful and takes a dump on so much 40K lore so I won't use it so prove anything.

'Outfighting IG and SoB' is not wrong in itself at all. I need specifics!

 StarTrotter wrote:
There's also some captions, I believe, of something like a small unit of Space Marines slaughtering hundreds, or was it a thousand DE with relative ease.

Brothers of the Snake? Have not read it tbh, heard it's reeeeeeeally wierd.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:

I was focusing on the ap3 part. That's not really something that is handed out to many units unless they were built to hurt heavily armored units frequently. It's an oddity simply due to it being the, possibly, rarest form of ap in the game (maybe ap1 is rarer? Regardless, even with that, most ap3 weapons are rather bad). So, the fact it exists, in combination with references to ceramite, make it highly likely that the answer is so.

And Straken has a godmode bionic arm that gives him strength 6, so he is as strong as a Dreadknight, right? Right? You can see that directly when you put the models next to each other!

Oh, and it gives him toughness 4, protection equivalent of Power Armour, AND AP2 in melee, AND armourbane.

Seems reasonable, rofl.

Right.

It's still a game mechanic.

It can just as easily be some arbitrary stat change to prevent Stormtroopers from having absolutely disastrous attack power in the game.

 StarTrotter wrote:

As for your next statement, I'd have to flip a book but I think the chaos book references one SM surviving a chaos daemon onslaught and changing everything for that planet into hope of humans winning. It's a small caption though.

One SM making the difference, pushing the fight over the edge =/= one SM capturing a planet.

 StarTrotter wrote:
Discounting the SPACE MARINE game for basically making it a one man rescue of the planet (for the fun of the game mind you)

Except Space Marine was, aside from the sequences where you fought Chaos Astartes (And possibly the final boss fight), an entirely believable game. As a Space Marine Captain you often had your command squad with you and you rarely fought more than a dozen foes at once. And when you did, it was almost only orks or traitor guard. You killed a lot, but you killed a little at a time.

 StarTrotter wrote:
fluffwise, SM do get a bit OTT wiping out CSM as they do in the Space Marine movie and conquering planets with ease or even outfighting a group of IG and SoB in a rather idiotic fashion.

But a cranky old man dueling the mightiest warboss in the galaxy is a-ok, since it is IG and IG can't do wrong.

Oh, and the Ultramarines movie is awful and takes a dump on so much 40K lore so I won't use it so prove anything.

'Outfighting IG and SoB' is not wrong in itself at all. I need specifics!

 StarTrotter wrote:
There's also some captions, I believe, of something like a small unit of Space Marines slaughtering hundreds, or was it a thousand DE with relative ease.

Brothers of the Snake? Have not read it tbh, heard it's reeeeeeeally wierd.

Honestly I can willingly say I don't care enough on the lasguns to really say either way. They could be very effecient in pinning the armor or they could just be more likely to than most firearms.

It's still silly on a planet that is being overrun by daemons that go on to describe how the planet was covered in daemons. Anyways, it's not really that bad. Especially in comparison to Draigo and everything he does or a new marine killing a prince with a knife.

Wait command squads are 2 marines with an occasional Inquisitor joining for a ride? You forget slaughtering hordes of orks and a warboss solo, paving your way through armies of cultists, chaos space marines, drones, psykers, and dozens of bloodletters. Then there is you kicking the ass of a daemon prince with a chainsword within the warp or whatever the heck it was without a lick of corruption or insanity. You also had an actual ultramarine that used it as a guideline. As a final note, he just charges through hordes upon hordes or orks and many a nob and ork psyker. And how many marines does he lose? One. It was a bloody fun game, but it operated on the SM being god mode and all enemies being utterly incompetent. Still a very entertaining game that was worth every dollar I spent.

Gosh that Space Marine film was absolutely horrid. It wasn't good for beginners or current fans. As per Yarrick, I actually honestly like him. I'm rather fine with a couple guys having some silly fluff. Also it's more of the underdog story for him and what he generally represents to me of the guardsman at large (even if logically he should be crushed and log dead). It's like blood of asaheim. The thing is rife with flaws from being a small force of SW that manage to slaughter there way through all of their foes, washed in cultists aplenty that are all mutated by nurgle and then killing several plague marine champions of nurgle, humerously having more trouble with one with a plague weapon than a power weapon. None of them die. The IG and SoB prepare a defensive fortification with flamers and entrenchment. A far lesser force of chaos overwhelms them and the sisters die fighting in their cathedral. Granted, this book was terrible to SoB in general from the SW insulting them, them foolishly letting an infected in to give the SW an excuse to criticize them more, to revealing secret info to them after being quiet, and for having Sisters that lost faith and regain it by watching the filthy heretic mutants that do not believe that the emperor is god and also have murdered sisters and ecclesiarchy before. Yeah, Wolves restored a Sisters faith (and if memory serves me it was a new cannonesse.

YEAH! That was the name. Tip, it's best to not read it.

Space Marine is entirely reasonable except for the CMarines and possibly the Daemon Prince. You kill a small Ork horde yourself, but you must remember that you do not fight them all at once. Only in small portions.

A Captain killing a Warboss is nothing weird at all.

The whole DP sequence was weird, no comments on that.

The primary reason the CSM died so much in that game is that the AI made them fight like vegetables. If they had used tactics, offense and movement like the player, they would have been a lore-accurate challenge.

The two Marines and Titus is his command squad. A small one, but still a command squad. At least according to the game itself.

You could actually die surprisingly easy in Space Marine. At least if you play on Hard. I consider Hard the 'fluff' choice since Normal and Easy both were pathetically easy.

No comments on the books I have not read.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Space Marine is entirely reasonable except for the CMarines and possibly the Daemon Prince. You kill a small Ork horde yourself, but you must remember that you do not fight them all at once. Only in small portions.

A Captain killing a Warboss is nothing weird at all.

The whole DP sequence was weird, no comments on that.

The primary reason the CSM died so much in that game is that the AI made them fight like vegetables. If they had used tactics, offense and movement like the player, they would have been a lore-accurate challenge.

The two Marines and Titus is his command squad. A small one, but still a command squad. At least according to the game itself.

You could actually die surprisingly easy in Space Marine. At least if you play on Hard. I consider Hard the 'fluff' choice since Normal and Easy both were pathetically easy.

No comments on the books I have not read.

Eh, some places swarm you with orks. Also, you are forgetting the warboss+hordes of orks and gretchins that you had to fight. If it were just the warboss, I'd agree with you. The problem is it wasn't. Also, the way it worked was rather gamy giving you a way to replenish health. Finally, you forgot the hordes of bloodletters that you slaughter despite their fluff describing them as everything and then some.

Yeah, I'd recommend not picking them up.

 Ashiraya wrote:

TheCustomLime wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
The Hotshot Volley Gun is also said to be the perfect tool to kill renegade Marines.

I would assume for loyalists the lasers would bounce harmlessly off their plot armor.

Yes, let's ignore the plot-armoured IG (E.g Cain, Gaunt) in favour of assuming that the plot armour always lies with SM to such a great degree that the plot armour of other races are negligible.



If you are going to base your arguments on cherrypicking at least say you are doing so instead of presenting it as some kind of objective absolute statement a lá

Bobthehero wrote:The new Scion codex mentions the Hellgun being able to punch through Ceramite, therefore it can punch through PA.

And I thought the SM fans were the ones who were supposed to be doing the fanboying around here?

Seems not.

By all means, use your codex as a supposedly flawless source when you happily dismiss arguments taken from the SM codex as 'codex bias'.

The hypocrisy is so blatant it's almost sickening.

It was a joke. The statement was that the volleygun was suitable against "Renegade" astartes instead of astartes in general. So, I made a joke that the reason the lasers didn't work against regular space marines because of their terminator grade plot armor.

I never dismissed any arguments from the C:CSM or C:SM codex. Or even presented any arguments from a guard codex. Personally, I do think Gaunt and his band of merry men are a pack of walking plot armor which is why I don't approve of the series despite being a guard fan. I also love Space Marines too. I own part of a Horus Heresy Ultramarine army, a Blood Angelish army and I am interested in Chaos Space Marines. I love their lore, their look and the idea of them. I just dislike it when they are bandied about as the most invincible guys ever because it makes their heroic actions look cheap. Space Marines shouldn't be able to defeat 100 GEQ with a single tac squad because their weapons can't do gak to them. They should be able to because of their battlefield expertise, skill at arms and a little bit of genetic engineering. But I guess that's different interpretations of the army.

Unless you were talking to Bob. Then forget all of this.

PLEASE STOP SAYING THAT CSM DO NOT HAVE EXPERIENCE BECAUSE THE HERESY WAS VERY RECENT TO THEM DUE TO THE WARP MAKING TIME TRAVEL DIFFERENTLY.

Seriously if you are going to use this argument please cite a source, as it is just as likely to happen in the complete opposite direction, therefore the argument is null.

 herpguy wrote:
PLEASE STOP SAYING THAT CSM DO NOT HAVE EXPERIENCE BECAUSE THE HERESY WAS VERY RECENT TO THEM DUE TO THE WARP MAKING TIME TRAVEL DIFFERENTLY.

Seriously if you are going to use this argument please cite a source, as it is just as likely to happen in the complete opposite direction, therefore the argument is null.

Well said ruinous brother.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

TheCustomLime wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
The Hotshot Volley Gun is also said to be the perfect tool to kill renegade Marines.

I would assume for loyalists the lasers would bounce harmlessly off their plot armor.

Yes, let's ignore the plot-armoured IG (E.g Cain, Gaunt) in favour of assuming that the plot armour always lies with SM to such a great degree that the plot armour of other races are negligible.



If you are going to base your arguments on cherrypicking at least say you are doing so instead of presenting it as some kind of objective absolute statement a lá

Bobthehero wrote:The new Scion codex mentions the Hellgun being able to punch through Ceramite, therefore it can punch through PA.

And I thought the SM fans were the ones who were supposed to be doing the fanboying around here?

Seems not.

By all means, use your codex as a supposedly flawless source when you happily dismiss arguments taken from the SM codex as 'codex bias'.

The hypocrisy is so blatant it's almost sickening.

It was a joke. The statement was that the volleygun was suitable against "Renegade" astartes instead of astartes in general. So, I made a joke that the reason the lasers didn't work against regular space marines because of their terminator grade plot armor.

I never dismissed any arguments from the C:CSM or C:SM codex. Or even presented any arguments from a guard codex. Personally, I do think Gaunt and his band of merry men are a pack of walking plot armor which is why I don't approve of the series despite being a guard fan. I also love Space Marines too. I own part of a Horus Heresy Ultramarine army, a Blood Angelish army and I am interested in Chaos Space Marines. I love their lore, their look and the idea of them. I just dislike it when they are bandied about as the most invincible guys ever because it makes their heroic actions look cheap. Space Marines shouldn't be able to defeat 100 GEQ with a single tac squad because their weapons can't do gak to them. They should be able to because of their battlefield expertise, skill at arms and a little bit of genetic engineering. But I guess that's different interpretations of the army.

Unless you were talking to Bob. Then forget all of this.

Lol yes, not even a plasma cannon could kill a SM there is no sense of honour among SM's, all they do is win in cheap scenerios. I'm not mocking any fans of SM's, I know y'all just like the army but GW and their stupid ideas make everybody look bad. For a SM chapter to win a battle against a CSM warband they have to be prepared to sacrifice, such is demanded in the fight.

To be fair, IG fans are just as bad as SM fans but they often go under the radar.

I am not the one wishing for T6 troops, just sayin'

Well, yeah, but Chaos fans are as bad as SM players.

In fact, I would say that most faction fans are about as bad as each other.

 Bobthehero wrote:
I am not the one wishing for T6 troops, just sayin'

Neither do Guardsmen have such a role.

If you wished for T6 guardsmen, it would be far more extreme than T6 SM.

You have to think percentages.

Sorry, appeal to hypocrisy fallacies won't serve you here.

It's not really that they are weaker than the imperials, pretty much every book has it's heroes dominate their enemies (at least for a time)

I'm just laughing at the fanboyism of all you guys
(note, I don't even play Blood Ravens, I just love this image)
The reasons for and against SMs and CMSs being equal/not equal have been rehashed so many times in this thread, but no one (on either side really) is listening to anything anyone else has to say.

Just like every other army-peen measuring contest really.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
I am not the one wishing for T6 troops, just sayin'

Neither do Guardsmen have such a role.

If you wished for T6 guardsmen, it would be far more extreme than T6 SM.

You have to think percentages.

Sorry, appeal to hypocrisy fallacies won't serve you here.

I'd say they're both equally ridiculous

 Inky wrote:
I'm just laughing at the fanboyism of all you guys
(note, I don't even play Blood Ravens, I just love this image)
The reasons for and against SMs and CMSs being equal/not equal have been rehashed so many times in this thread, but no one (on either side really) is listening to anything anyone else has to say.

Just like every other army-peen measuring contest really.

I largely like to stick the the idea that CSM often have less reliable weapons, or use them in a more hazardous way leading to increased deterioration often giving the advantage of tech to SM whilst CSM have a slight edge in battle experience thus making the two relatively equal.

 StarTrotter wrote:

 Inky wrote:
I'm just laughing at the fanboyism of all you guys
(note, I don't even play Blood Ravens, I just love this image)
The reasons for and against SMs and CMSs being equal/not equal have been rehashed so many times in this thread, but no one (on either side really) is listening to anything anyone else has to say.

Just like every other army-peen measuring contest really.

I largely like to stick the the idea that CSM often have less reliable weapons, or use them in a more hazardous way leading to increased deterioration often giving the advantage of tech to SM whilst CSM have a slight edge in battle experience thus making the two relatively equal.

Depends. The Warsmiths are numerous enough and have sufficient means to supply the Chaos Space Marine warbands well. Plus, if we are talking the not-negligible amount of VotlW left, then the edge in battle experience is not so slight.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:

 Inky wrote:
I'm just laughing at the fanboyism of all you guys
(note, I don't even play Blood Ravens, I just love this image)
The reasons for and against SMs and CMSs being equal/not equal have been rehashed so many times in this thread, but no one (on either side really) is listening to anything anyone else has to say.

Just like every other army-peen measuring contest really.

I largely like to stick the the idea that CSM often have less reliable weapons, or use them in a more hazardous way leading to increased deterioration often giving the advantage of tech to SM whilst CSM have a slight edge in battle experience thus making the two relatively equal.

Depends. The Warsmiths are numerous enough and have sufficient means to supply the Chaos Space Marine warbands well. Plus, if we are talking the not-negligible amount of VotlW left, then the edge in battle experience is not so slight.

Plus the warp does funny things to weapons, like weapons that have gone years without repair still firing because 'because', or your weapon mutates along with yourself and now fires pus filled bolts that inflict the plague.

It's not a coincidence that Chaos Space Marine bolts are consistently depicted as glowing in colours like blue or dark red.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:

 Inky wrote:
I'm just laughing at the fanboyism of all you guys
(note, I don't even play Blood Ravens, I just love this image)
The reasons for and against SMs and CMSs being equal/not equal have been rehashed so many times in this thread, but no one (on either side really) is listening to anything anyone else has to say.

Just like every other army-peen measuring contest really.

I largely like to stick the the idea that CSM often have less reliable weapons, or use them in a more hazardous way leading to increased deterioration often giving the advantage of tech to SM whilst CSM have a slight edge in battle experience thus making the two relatively equal.

Depends. The Warsmiths are numerous enough and have sufficient means to supply the Chaos Space Marine warbands well. Plus, if we are talking the not-negligible amount of VotlW left, then the edge in battle experience is not so slight.

Eh, I think I was more opting for the old plasma for chaos appeal. I don't disagree with you though, the warp does odd things. As per VoTLW. Isn't Huron als a VoTLW model? So it's not quite saying ancient as all heck. Along with that, I'd say living in a malestorm can really mean some training (especially against not running from monsters. Oh wait nevermind )

Huron has VOTLW, but then, he has fought a lot of Space Marines in his comparatively short time as a traitor.

Even then it is a game mechanic.

Living in the Eye/Maelstrom... Yeah, the weak get sorted out rather quickly.

Codex wise, laziness is why we don't have legions and a decent book representing chaos marines properly.

Fluff wise, bad writers and space marines are the good guys, exceptions do exist (adb) but it's rare

 Formosa wrote:
Codex wise, laziness is why we don't have legions and a decent book representing chaos marines properly.

Fluff wise, bad writers and space marines are the good guys, exceptions do exist (adb) but it's rare

very true.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Huron has VOTLW, but then, he has fought a lot of Space Marines in his comparatively short time as a traitor.

Even then it is a game mechanic.

Living in the Eye/Maelstrom... Yeah, the weak get sorted out rather quickly.

Somehow Huron, a chapter master got, downgraded to a captain and picked up VotlW when he turned to chaos.