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 alarmingrick wrote:
And why dump ~$150.00 USD on a unit that could very well get dumped in the next go around.

Mine would be "why spend that much on a unit that is one of the most tedious and annoying in the game to fire".

If I want to be completely simplistic about the codex:

we traded Chimera spam for Russ spam (dunno if its better or worse)
we turned our CCS into Tau pathfinders

I see Guard being primarily run 2 ways; Blob, and ABG

a bunch of blobs playing gunline with plasma/melta and lascannon support buffed by orders and divination is stupid crazy, drop in a preferred enemy for 60 more points and things are going to die.

Dakka tanks are really good, vanquishers and punishers being able to fill almost all roles.

The thing I keep trying to wrap my head around are the new kits

Taurox: rules wise meh, seems kinda like a glass cannon (and not a necessarily large cannon at that) models wise I think its horrid
Ogryns/Bullygruns: just too dang expensive, 40-60 points, heck I might as well run Paladins at that point. model wise they are ....ok i guess
Hydra: way too nerf an already nearly unused model, model wise finally we got a hydra
Scions: I can see a use for them especially if you start seeing more Imperial Knight armies, they are about where they need to be, model wise I really like the kit, (except the torso) well done GW

GW why dont you make toys that I want to play with....such vast potential,,,but your wasting your time on hookers and blow.

AkhilleusK42 wrote:Off topic, but every time I read the title of the thread I have the Priest of Sigmar from Warhammer: Mark of Chaos screaming it at me.

To me, sons of Terra!

I just played a game today with the new codex; granted it was a 6 players pseudo-Apocalypse game (not FoC, big numbers, forgo strategic assets, Warlord special rules and reserves rules- really just a big battle with super units when you think about it) but at least I got to play with lots of toys in one go.

Pask as a tank commander; deadly. The somewhat split fire he can give himself is wonderful. He was in a Vanquisher with a back up LRBT, and him taking shots as vehicle while his wingman was taking care of blobs in infantry was great. Plus with cheap camo-gear, 4+ save made him see the whole battle.

Primaris Psyker spend his whole time hiding in cover with an infantry squad (vox and ML+GL) giving to hit re-rolls. Said Squad took care of a squad of bonecrushers and crippled another squad of bloodletters thanks to receiving FRFSRF on top of the Psyker's help with an average of 6 wounds per volley; with only 5++ , lasguns actually was the winner on their part of the table.

MoO+Fire on my target on the CCS itself means good bye anything in cover that gets wounded. That or given to a HWT.
12inch range for orders is also great, now the PCS are not forced to be sticking like glue to IS to be order worthy.

Sadly, I never made my rolls with my scions, so I dind't had the chance to try them out yet...

Ive been saying for a while, weve got a psuedo Colossus in the CCS now. Glad you had success with it.

do you think that Pask with another tank is better than a CCS (MoO) and a small lascannon blob squad?

I'm thinking of running 3x triple squad platoons with plasma/lascannon for the FoMT orders, but I might try the Pask build.

 Perfect Organism wrote:
Having read the book, it seems that camo-netting and slabshields do stack with each other and any other effect which offers a bonus to cover saves, so it's pretty easy to get 3+ cover on your vehicles.

Or go for a cheeky ADL and get 2+

RegulusBlack wrote:we turned our CCS into Tau pathfinders

It's pretty far from this.

The CCS is more fragile than a squad of pathfinders, and the unit they're giving an order to has to be close enough (instead of the entire army), and you have to use those orders at the beginning (instead of using them at any time during the shooting phase), and they only work for the single unit shooting (instead of the entire army), and they only work on units that pass their leadership test (which is crummy, unlike pathfinders, who just need to roll to hit). The CCS can't also give +BS buffs as well.

In a way, CCSs work in the way that pathfinders should have worked, instead of the wonky PCP-induced insanity of how they actually do.

Mr.Omega wrote:The Wyvern, true, is an anti-infantry unit in an army that doesn't exactly lack them. However, it is accurate, so reliable and a cheap fix for IG armies that can't fit in anything specifically good at wiping the floor completely with light infantry ranging from Guardians to Firewarriors that are extremely annoying. While an LR Eradicator is cheaper than 2 Wyverns, 2 Wyverns give you more redundancy, which is pretty significant in competitive lists.

As mentioned, though, S4 Ap6.

Take a moment to compare them to a mortar HWS. They are a bit more accurate. They ignore cover, but since they're already barrage and Ap6, this isn't really that much of a benefit. They have an extra shot, and they have shred as well. But in the end, they're just an up-damaged version of a mortar HWS.

I mean, at least the griffon had Ap4. And the eradicator DOES have Ap4, and better strength, and can upgrade with anti-tank weapons, and is on closed-top AV14.

In a way, the wyvern is sort of a multi-shot blast lasgun. Hmm...

alarmingric wrote:Which bothers me. I'm more of a not all of the eggs in one basket type. I don't like hoping the stars align.
Nice write up A-man!

Thanks!

It only sort of bothers me, to be honest. The wonkiness of a dice game is rather why 40k is 40k in the first place, and randomness is a decent way of preventing overpoweredness.

I guess the real test of a guard commander in the future will be one who knows how to take advantage of all of these leadership-based buffs, while on the other hand learning not to rely on them. That will be a tricky middle-ground to figure out.

 RegulusBlack wrote:
Ive been saying for a while, weve got a psuedo Colossus in the CCS now. Glad you had success with it.

do you think that Pask with another tank is better than a CCS (MoO) and a small lascannon blob squad?

I'm thinking of running 3x triple squad platoons with plasma/lascannon for the FoMT orders, but I might try the Pask build.

Perhaps in term of damage output an durability (AV14 is a tough nut to crack) , Pask with a tank is better, but the lack of scoring, orders and well, let's call it 'flexibility' the CCS and a blob is better in the long run. blob means a PCS as well, so that's 2 (small) units that can give orders.

Really, the nice think with Pask is that he's got re-rolls for the long range tanks, BS4 and those tank orders. I would personally go with a mix with one CCS and a tank commander with the other, quite possibly Pask if I can spare the 40 pts extra.

Right, also, how many people were consistently filling up both HQ slots for their guard armies before? To my recollection, most players only ever used one slot for their CCS, or occasionally just a lord commissar, and if there was another HQ at all it was spent on a cheap primaris psyker.

It's more of a case of "we have a reason to take two HQs" than a case of "we have too much stuff competing for HQ slots".

 Ailaros wrote:
Right, also, how many people were consistently filling up both HQ slots for their guard armies before? To my recollection, most players only ever used one slot for their CCS, or occasionally just a lord commissar, and if there was another HQ at all it was spent on a cheap primaris psyker.

It's more of a case of "we have a reason to take two HQs" than a case of "we have too much stuff competing for HQ slots".

I agree. In fact, I think that the heavy and slots are a lot less crowded now, and the HQ slots are really hard to pick. After a tank commander takes up two or three russes, it is hard to fill out three heavy slots without using up too many points.

 Ailaros wrote:
Right, also, how many people were consistently filling up both HQ slots for their guard armies before? To my recollection, most players only ever used one slot for their CCS, or occasionally just a lord commissar, and if there was another HQ at all it was spent on a cheap primaris psyker.

It's more of a case of "we have a reason to take two HQs" than a case of "we have too much stuff competing for HQ slots".

Personally I always used 2 CCS, for the CCS-only orders, having 2 standards and a few BS4 plasma guns. I used a standard commissar once or twice, never had any interest in a Commissar Lord, and a Primaris once.

Now, I'm actually thinking of downsizing that to a single CCS with a tank commander in the other slot, and even then I'm hesitant to loose FomT and BiD

I've got to be honest, I cried a little inside when I thought that Sanario might have to give up his Eviscerator. That bothered me more than the fact that my own priest with Eviscerator was relegated to ally status.

That being said, Priests are, in my book, are a gigantic boost for blob guard. They do exactly what helps blob guard the most in 6th, and they do it on the cheap. In my 6th edition experience, blob guard is good because it is super durable for the points if you don't upgrade it too much, and massed lasguns with Divination are really effective. Priests only make them better. First, they are a source of leadership. Second, they're cheap enough that they're not diluting the firepower of the blob too much, and are in fact adding to it with their (precision shooting) plasma gun. Finally, they add to the close-combat power of the blob in exactly the right way, by boosting regular guys.

Assault is bad in 6th, so you don't need to be that good, you just need to be good enough to beat whoever gets through your guns in a battle of attrition. That's exactly what priests do. They give you the battle of attrition while boosting your psychology and your shooting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, the shoot+run order makes blobs faster while still killing guys with their guns.

I've slapped together a weird list full of a bunch of stuff that I'd never used with the old Codex, and with a bit of creative Counts As (my LRBTs became Vanquishers, my Medusas became Basalisks, and my Griffon just got promoted or demoted to Wyvern) I'm going to poke around with it at a 3 round RTT in Ashburn, VA tomorrow.

Somehow, I won't be surprised if I end the day buying more boxes of WFB ogres to build a lot more Bullgryns. I also don't have high hopes for the Wyvern, though three Servo Skullls might turn it (and the battery of Basalisks, and the Demolisher) into horrific engines of first turn destruction.

Wyverns will be around a great deal. Why?

They are codex legal thudd guns that can snipe characters out of deathstars.

Bring Coteaz, either go first or double effort for seize, bless squads of them, and force so many saves on a deathstar, preferably on the major buff elements,... and Bob's your uncle.

I think we'll be seeing a lot of this for the alpha strike capabilities alone. Most Deathstars HAVE to start the game on the board to get their powers off. Pound away at the support elements and you'll either flatten enough heavy lifters or actually kill the primary support meaning GG deathstar.

Basically, if you circumvent the wound sponges up front and get the squishy bits in the back, you're making people have bad saves. Yes, it's only S4 Ap6 instead of S5 AP5, but it can move and not be required to reload. Shred also makes up for it in spades.

These facts alone will make a unit of 3 or 2 units of 2 Wyverns a main stay in a competitive guard army.

I would never give a priest a plasmagun. Just too much of a risk to your support character. Also it almost doubles his points. Not worth it IMO. It is easy to get the fire power you need elsewhere.

 Leth wrote:
I would never give a priest a plasmagun. Just too much of a risk to your support character. Also it almost doubles his points. Not worth it IMO. It is easy to get the fire power you need elsewhere.

Just so I can give folks some aid, Sisters allies might be worth it for more priests. The SoB priests are better and can carry the Litanies of Faith which allows priests in a unit to auto-pass war hymns tests. This means if you're building a wicked power blob with 50 IG + 8 Priests + 3 Psykers. Get Forewarning, Foreboding, Prescience and then reroll all saves and wounds in close combat.

Slice of fried gold. Put St. Celestine in there for Hit and Run, bring 5 cheap sisters in a rhino and go to town. Get an Exorcist if you love the model, good support tank.

Really dig the Tank Commander and that ability. That's over all just really amazing. Being able to free up a Heavy Support slot like that is pretty amazing.

The main problem with blobs have had in 6th ed, though, wasn't that they lacked killing power, or had leadership problems. The reason they were bad is because of durability problems thanks to by-model cover, and the new wound allocation regime.

Unfortunately, none of that got fixed. A 50-guardsmen-with-priests deathstar sounds cool, but then you're going to play against tau and watch as it instantly evaporates, or you're going to play against eldar and all that shuricannon spam cleans it off the board in two turns before it gets to do anything.

This kind of thing only works if you can actually advance up the table, and the new guard codex did nothing to fix this problem. Other than spending a bunch of points and hoping for a 4++, but that's still subject to failed leadership/perils and just not drawing the power in the pre-game rolls. You could already get a 4++ blob with DA, but that didn't save blobs. Neither will this.

 TheKbob wrote:
Wyverns will be around a great deal.

I respectfully disagree. Str 4 ap 6, period. I'm not giving up a HS slot for that over a Bassy, Russ or Manticore.


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 Ailaros wrote:
The main problem with blobs have had in 6th ed, though, wasn't that they lacked killing power, or had leadership problems. The reason they were bad is because of durability problems thanks to by-model cover, and the new wound allocation regime.

Unfortunately, none of that got fixed. A 50-guardsmen-with-priests deathstar sounds cool, but then you're going to play against tau and watch as it instantly evaporates, or you're going to play against eldar and all that shuricannon spam cleans it off the board in two turns before it gets to do anything.

This kind of thing only works if you can actually advance up the table, and the new guard codex did nothing to fix this problem. Other than spending a bunch of points and hoping for a 4++, but that's still subject to failed leadership/perils and just not drawing the power in the pre-game rolls. You could already get a 4++ blob with DA, but that didn't save blobs. Neither will this.

I thought thats why we got Bullgryns,

 Ailaros wrote:
The CCS is more fragile than a squad of pathfinders, and the unit they're giving an order to has to be close enough (instead of the entire army), and you have to use those orders at the beginning (instead of using them at any time during the shooting phase), and they only work for the single unit shooting (instead of the entire army), and they only work on units that pass their leadership test (which is crummy, unlike pathfinders, who just need to roll to hit). The CCS can't also give +BS buffs as well.

How is the CCS, which can have 4+ armour, +1 cover saves and use it's ability from inside a chimera far more fragile than a unit of pathfinders?

You do know that you have to spend markerlight tokens per shooting attack, right? It works on any unit, but a very limited number of times.

Pathfinders also don't give you the ability to have monster/tank hunters, can't buff their own attacks, don't give you a cheap psyker, etc.

Just used the new IG in a game vs demons. I lost, mostly due to a blobs inability to fail a ld test get swept like they should have. However the firepower the guard put out was awesome. I clumped two eradicators a manticore and some heavy weapons around a CCS with the preferred enemy bubble and their firepower was hideous. Orders plus high strength shots plus PE is the way to go.

Great write-up Ailaros, I agree with most of it wholeheartedly.

I'm still going to at least give Yarrick a try, combining a beatstick, pseudo-CCS and a Lord Commissar with the best way of protecting Slay The Warlord. To my mind, he's one of the few SCs (alongside Pask and Nork) that actually got a buff.

Creed, Kell and Straken got worse, really. It's hard to argue with that, given that Creed is no longer the Tactical Genius (why couldn't they just guve him the outflank Warlord Trait), Creed stole Kell's ability to make orders more reliable and is now absurdly expensive, and Straken took a hit to his main ability.

 Mr.Omega wrote:
I agree with what you're saying Ailaros in some respects with some of your more overly critical analysis, but I think you're dismissing some things way too easily without considering context.

The Wyvern, true, is an anti-infantry unit in an army that doesn't exactly lack them. However, it is accurate, so reliable and a cheap fix for IG armies that can't fit in anything specifically good at wiping the floor completely with light infantry ranging from Guardians to Firewarriors that are extremely annoying. While an LR Eradicator is cheaper than 2 Wyverns, 2 Wyverns give you more redundancy, which is pretty significant in competitive lists.

I would seriously consider you have a look at either leman russ punishers or exterminators with 3 heavy bolters. While not the most efficient way to wipe clean a unit, a pair of those with commander's orders up and prescience could wipe out an enemy in a matter of a turn or two - 3 Punishers with 9 heavy bolters (sponsons on each) can take off 25 orks without re-rolls, 38 with them. They only do more wounds against other forms of swarms, although tyranids may provide some issues with their 3+ cover saves (they kill 18 termagants with a 3+ cover save). While I won't deny that the wyvern is undoubtedly a cheap and powerful blast caddy, there are most definitely units very capable of wiping the floor completely with light infantry within this codex. The other issue with Punishers over wyverns is that they have a minute range, meaning you'll be getting hit by the time you've brought fire to bear.

AS a side note, the same build should punch through any AV10/11 hull (2.41 hull points to an AV11 flyer, but that's you firing without re-rolls and at your absolute limit.) The same unit can deal an average of 2.41 wounds to a riptide. Given that it's a hail of low strength firepower, that's a testament to his capabilities.

Dunno where this idea that Sergeants can take Plasma Guns came from but they can't. They can take from Ranged Weapons and that is Bolt Pistols, boltguns and Plasma Pistol.

Oh and to silence any discussion on the topic of Precision Shot as a rule: The iPad version of the codex always includes hyperlinked summaries of special rules and Precision Shot means "Roll a 6 to hit and you allocate the shot" not that you allocate every shot like some people were arguing in the old rumours thread.

I dont get why the relic boltpistol has precision shot on it, when the only guy that can wield it is a commissar lord... who obviously has precision shot as a character.
Another case of the rules writers not understanding the rules?

 Ailaros wrote:
The main problem with blobs have had in 6th ed, though, wasn't that they lacked killing power, or had leadership problems. The reason they were bad is because of durability problems thanks to by-model cover, and the new wound allocation regime.

I disagree. That is the main problem with close combat blobs, shooty blobs that are also competent in close combat are dangerous to the enemy on turn one, don't need their killing power up front, and have excellent durability per point. Furthermore, priests as a source of leadership are about four times more durable than commissars, do more to help in combat, more to boost shooting, and better leadership buffs for less points.

Priests don't let you go to ground and also don't boost leadership for orders. This means that you can't do the "Get back in the fight" trick and test orders on an 8.

A few questions & observations;

The Quad-Mortar tank, its shells are better-than-Str5 vs infantry.

Are there any ways to access mobile troops outside of transports (chimera, School Bus or Valkyrie's)?

When is the codex being released? I've checked everywhere and I cannot find a release date - please help! I live in the UK, fyi.

Razerous wrote:
A few questions & observations;

The Quad-Mortar tank, its shells are better-than-Str5 vs infantry.

Are there any ways to access mobile troops outside of transports (chimera, School Bus or Valkyrie's)?

When is the codex being released? I've checked everywhere and I cannot find a release date - please help! I live in the UK, fyi.

Was released yesterday. You don't get mobile troops without transports really, although you can ally in Scions from the Militarum Tempestus codex. That gets you deep strike troops which score,

Taurox with some 3rd party tires doesn't look so bad.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Spoiler:

Taurox with some 3rd party tires doesn't look so bad.

Nice.
A quick question "How big it that thing compaired to say...a Rhino?"