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Imperial Guard is an army that I have only played against once and never in a competitive setting. With this new codex, what are their strengths/weakness vs Tyranids, particularly FMC's and MC's.

I'm leaving this here for fun, not serious tactical consideration.

Because you sometimes have to follow the rabbit down the silliest holes:

CCS (60), Straken (135), MoO (20), Astropath (25), 3 Plasma Gun (45), Medic (15), Carapace (8), Primaris Psyker (50), Primaris Psyker (50), Plasma Priest (40), Plasma Priest (40), Plasma Priest (40) = 528 (12 dudes)

Chimera (65), Camo Netting (15), Relic Plating (3) = 83

1 plasma pistol
6 plasma guns
1 walking ordnance blast
Built-in divination (Primaris Psykers)
FNP
Lots of invulnerable saves
Fearless
Furious Charge
Counter Attack
Priest stuff

So you start in your chimera, headed straight for the enemy, tossing a pie plate out your top hatch. Turn 2 you pile out and Prescience up, unloading at something with 13 re-rolled plasma guns, a pie plate, and whatever the psykers have. In combat you’ve got re-rolling Straken, a couple of re-rolling force axes, a few regular dudes, and whatever the priests bring to the party. Your chant priority against most targets is probably re-roll saves > re-roll wounds > smash. It’s only ~30% of an 1850 list.

 Iechine wrote:
Imperial Guard is an army that I have only played against once and never in a competitive setting. With this new codex, what are their strengths/weakness vs Tyranids, particularly FMC's and MC's.

Against FMCs, IG can force grounding tests left, right and centre, with Chimeras able to potentially hit 4 different targets (Chimera, crew and 2 Lasgun arrays) and any unit potentially having Split Fire with orders. They can bring a lot of plasma for the points, and the same with melta. Hige fearless squads can Tarpit MCs, and meltabombs everywhere can threaten your MCs as well. Wyverns will shred gaunts or gants you have.

That said, without Fearless IG infantry will crumble in assault, and the same with Tanks vs MCs.

 Miguelsan wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

Zengu wrote:
Has anyone tried the improved death strike missile yet?

Take one of your Leman Russ Squadrons and give them long ranged weaponry and camp them around the Deathstrike. Sit back and bombard until its able to fire, watched this happen last night and it literally wiped out 3 quarters of a Tau Gunline army!

Unfortunately the Death Strike is still worthless (but fun specially if you put up a great show when rolling to fire ) A player that keeps castled up when a Death Strike is on the table is a player that can't grasp basic concepts like 1+1=2. The Death Strike is a really fun thing to bring to a casual game but the average player that sees an IG list with it will spread around and rush the IG lines ASAP, it's not like the IG is the ultimate CC army after all and even Tau have better chances at assaulting the damn thing than waiting for the pie plate to wipe them out in one go.

M.

You talk about your opponent rushing your lines like that's an immediate defeat for yourself and the Deathstrike has no use in such a scenario.

Well, it has. You've forced the enemy to go on the offensive. All those slow, cumbersome Tau gunlines? You can force them to spread out thin, meaning you can isolate and destroy them better as their lanes of fire are disrupted, or you can massacre them as they attempt to charge your lines. It doesn't matter what they do, its a win-win-win.

And while defensive orientated armies try to stumble towards your hidden launchers clumsily, they're still going to be relatively close together, especially if you manipulate your own deployment to force their units closer together- for instance, by shoving the launcher, or launchers in a heavily defended corner. Then you nuke them.

 Paradigm wrote:

 Iechine wrote:
Imperial Guard is an army that I have only played against once and never in a competitive setting. With this new codex, what are their strengths/weakness vs Tyranids, particularly FMC's and MC's.

Against FMCs, IG can force grounding tests left, right and centre, with Chimeras able to potentially hit 4 different targets (Chimera, crew and 2 Lasgun arrays) and any unit potentially having Split Fire with orders. They can bring a lot of plasma for the points, and the same with melta. Hige fearless squads can Tarpit MCs, and meltabombs everywhere can threaten your MCs as well. Wyverns will shred gaunts or gants you have.

That said, without Fearless IG infantry will crumble in assault, and the same with Tanks vs MCs.

Stick a 40pt enginseer in the chimera with whatever squad, and then shoot 5 targets. And repair the chimera.

Biophysical wrote:
I'm leaving this here for fun, not serious tactical consideration.

Because you sometimes have to follow the rabbit down the silliest holes:

CCS (60), Straken (135), MoO (20), Astropath (25), 3 Plasma Gun (45), Medic (15), Carapace (8), Primaris Psyker (50), Primaris Psyker (50), Plasma Priest (40), Plasma Priest (40), Plasma Priest (40) = 528 (12 dudes)

Chimera (65), Camo Netting (15), Relic Plating (3) = 83

1 plasma pistol
6 plasma guns
1 walking ordnance blast
Built-in divination (Primaris Psykers)
FNP
Lots of invulnerable saves
Fearless
Furious Charge
Counter Attack
Priest stuff

So you start in your chimera, headed straight for the enemy, tossing a pie plate out your top hatch. Turn 2 you pile out and Prescience up, unloading at something with 13 re-rolled plasma guns, a pie plate, and whatever the psykers have. In combat you’ve got re-rolling Straken, a couple of re-rolling force axes, a few regular dudes, and whatever the priests bring to the party. Your chant priority against most targets is probably re-roll saves > re-roll wounds > smash. It’s only ~30% of an 1850 list.

You forgot the part where they can kill your Chimera laughably easily. Chimerae are kind of durable, in large numbers at range, where they can protect each others' weak flanks Playing them aggressively takes a lot of work and fairly dense terrain.

I was just reading an AM codex review and found this point quite amusing:

"Also, am I missing something or is the allies chart/para missing from the book? I've checked both the BL digital and print copies and don't see it anywhere. When we couldn't find it we pre-emptively house ruled at the shop I go to that they are just IG from the BRB. This could be a tournament nightmare if it is truly missing as with the name change they RAW have NO ALLIES".

LOL

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:

You forgot the part where they can kill your Chimera laughably easily. Chimerae are kind of durable, in large numbers at range, where they can protect each others' weak flanks Playing them aggressively takes a lot of work and fairly dense terrain.

That's why it's for fun, and not serious. You could run screens with hellhounds, but that just keeps piling silliness on top of silliness.

So going back to the conscript blob. With 40 of them at max spacing you could make two 50' long lines. You know instead of marking your deployment area off with dice or whatever, just use 120pts worth of dudes.

I think those long wall of martyrs sections just got more useful.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 Miguelsan wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

Zengu wrote:
Has anyone tried the improved death strike missile yet?

Take one of your Leman Russ Squadrons and give them long ranged weaponry and camp them around the Deathstrike. Sit back and bombard until its able to fire, watched this happen last night and it literally wiped out 3 quarters of a Tau Gunline army!

Unfortunately the Death Strike is still worthless (but fun specially if you put up a great show when rolling to fire ) A player that keeps castled up when a Death Strike is on the table is a player that can't grasp basic concepts like 1+1=2. The Death Strike is a really fun thing to bring to a casual game but the average player that sees an IG list with it will spread around and rush the IG lines ASAP, it's not like the IG is the ultimate CC army after all and even Tau have better chances at assaulting the damn thing than waiting for the pie plate to wipe them out in one go.

M.

You talk about your opponent rushing your lines like that's an immediate defeat for yourself and the Deathstrike has no use in such a scenario.



Well, it has. You've forced the enemy to go on the offensive. All those slow, cumbersome Tau gunlines? You can force them to spread out thin, meaning you can isolate and destroy them better as their lanes of fire are disrupted, or you can massacre them as they attempt to charge your lines. It doesn't matter what they do, its a win-win-win.

And while defensive orientated armies try to stumble towards your hidden launchers clumsily, they're still going to be relatively close together, especially if you manipulate your own deployment to force their units closer together- for instance, by shoving the launcher, or launchers in a heavily defended corner. Then you nuke them.

I think alot of people are underestimating what the deathstrike does. The Deathstirke changes how your opponent might have chosen to deploy (you always gain something forcing the enemy to change according to what you do). In addition, alot of armies like to cluster units up in order to maximize cover saves/block LOS for other units. Deathstrikes discourage this. So what if your enemy is now stringing out his units to prevent the deathstrike from vaporizing half his army, if half of his army is now exposed to your Leman Russes and other long ranged firepower that doesn't ignore cover?

In my opinion the Deathstrike is primarily a psychological weapon used to force your opponent to make strategic mistakes in deployment and movement, and any actual killing it does is just gravy. If you really want it to go off and not get hurt, stick it out of LoS behind a bastion, or put it behind an Aegis (4+), with bulllgryn (3+) and camo-netting(2+). And the rules don't say the bullgryn have to stay upright to confer their save, so you can have them go to ground for their own 2+ cover save as well.

On the Wyvern, I'm not seeing the power here.

I've seen some people quote some obscene numbers of wounds; in an army list post someone worked the math out for an average of 3 wounds per blast. Maybe I'm conscious of blast markers, but I can't understand how anyone could possibly assume 3 wounds average for a single small blast marker when your opponent has 2" of coherency to play with.

Working under the assumption that most opponents would space out properly when facing off against multiple Wyverns, I can't help but think the raw firepower drops off considerably. If someone can consistently show me that in higher end play there's a constant supply of bunched up models waiting to eat a series of small blasts, I'll take it all back. The only scenarios I can think of are deep striking units, and ones either disembarking or had their transport blown up. Tank shocking helps, but that requires a tank to be in close promixity, and I can think of several units that would deal out more hurt than a few S4 small blasts.

At least the Thunderfire cannon brings with it numerous abilities, with different ammo, a techpriest, being artillery, and filling a role the book actually needs help with. The Wyvern is in the same slot as all the AV14 tanks (one of which also conveniently ignores cover with higher S and better AP) and the S9/10 barrage templates useful for hurting nearly everything reliably.

I'm just not buying the hype about the Wyvern. If it was Elite, I could the usefulness, but in the heavy slot? Personally, I have more important things to go there than extra GEQ killing power.

So, am I completely out to lunch?

 Blacksails wrote:
On the Wyvern, I'm not seeing the power here.

I've seen some people quote some obscene numbers of wounds; in an army list post someone worked the math out for an average of 3 wounds per blast. Maybe I'm conscious of blast markers, but I can't understand how anyone could possibly assume 3 wounds average for a single small blast marker when your opponent has 2" of coherency to play with.

Working under the assumption that most opponents would space out properly when facing off against multiple Wyverns, I can't help but think the raw firepower drops off considerably. If someone can consistently show me that in higher end play there's a constant supply of bunched up models waiting to eat a series of small blasts, I'll take it all back. The only scenarios I can think of are deep striking units, and ones either disembarking or had their transport blown up. Tank shocking helps, but that requires a tank to be in close promixity, and I can think of several units that would deal out more hurt than a few S4 small blasts.

At least the Thunderfire cannon brings with it numerous abilities, with different ammo, a techpriest, being artillery, and filling a role the book actually needs help with. The Wyvern is in the same slot as all the AV14 tanks (one of which also conveniently ignores cover with higher S and better AP) and the S9/10 barrage templates useful for hurting nearly everything reliably.

I'm just not buying the hype about the Wyvern. If it was Elite, I could the usefulness, but in the heavy slot? Personally, I have more important things to go there than extra GEQ killing power.

So, am I completely out to lunch?

I don't think the Wyvern will have a place in my army either, it might only be 65 points but I can't see it reliably killing anything but bunched up squads of Ork Boyz in my own meta. If anything, it will only make my idiots friends deploy their guys in L shaped formations because for some reason they find that hilarious because it apparently renders my IG shooting useless.

I'm thinking Imperial Guardstar is going to be pretty freaking brutal...


Coteaz: 100

Ordo Xenos Inquisitor in Power Armor w/ Force Sword, Rad Grenades, Liber Heresius and 2 Servo Skulls: 99

Azrael: 215

Priest:25
Priest:25


Infantry Platoon: 30
Infantry Squad, Sergeant w/ Melta Bombs & Power Axe: 70
Infantry Squad, Sergeant w/ Melta Bombs & Power Axe: 70
Infantry Squad, Sergeant w/ Melta Bombs & Power Axe: 70
Infantry Squad, Sergeant w/ Melta Bombs & Power Axe: 70
Infantry Squad, Sergeant w/ Melta Bombs & Power Axe: 70




It's ~850 points, BUT has 55 scoring bodies, and combines some of the nastiest synergy imaginable, getting rerolls on invuln saves, to-hit, and to-wound in H2H, precision shots at range with the PCS close behind issuing the order, strength boosts from 2x Hammerhand, and target T reductions from Rad Grenades. The weakest sucker has a 4+ invuln save which will be rerollable in H2H.

What about the primaris psykers??

I think even if you look at the Wyvern as averaging 1 model hit per blast, against a spread out foe it still ends up being pretty useful. Take a squadron of 3, which is sub 200 points. Against GEQs, that's 7 kills, anywhere on the board. Against MEQs, it's 3 kills. Those are only okay numbers, but the real utility is that you can reach out and do it to whatever objective campers you can't get to with other stuff, and you can do it while hiding.

On top of that, add in the ability to focus your wounds on important support characters

I also think severely punishing deepstrikers and taking advantage of bailed out squads is a real benefit. All those blasts are twin-linked, so you really increase your odds of hammering those small, bunched up targets.

Just for fun, look at 5 terminators that dropped in. If the first one hits, you'll probably get 6 more hits on the scatter die. That's 35 hits (not including the odd hit from linked-off scatters), for ~26 wounds, for ~ 4 kills. And that's against Terminators. For MEQs and lighter that are bailed out you're removing whole squads with a full salvo. And the Wyverns can always get to the bailed out squad, because they can hit anything on the board. Now, if you don't get that first hit in a good place, you're not going to do nearly as much, but at least it's twin-linked, so your odds are good.

So what do you all think is the best setup for the PowerPask?

I was thinking either:

1. Pask in Punisher, 2 LR vanquishers with Lascannons- 500pts
2. Pask in Punisher, 2 Punishers- 490pts
3. Pask in Punisher, 2 Exterminators with Lascannons- 520pts

For that much you get your HQ as well as 2 great Russes and 1 Amazing Russ. Obviously Pask's Punisher can be used against everything, the vanquishers would be hunting heavy armor, the punisher spam would be mowing down infantry, and the exterminators are for light armor/ heavy infantry.

Those are just some ideas, what do you think the best use for pask is?

edit: vanquisher= 72" armorbane str8 ap2, Punisher=24" str5 20 shots, Exterminator= 2 TL autocannons

 Ryan_A wrote:
So what do you all think is the best setup for the PowerPask?

I was thinking either:

1. Pask in Punisher, 2 LR vanquishers with Lascannons- 500pts
2. Pask in Punisher, 2 Punishers- 490pts
3. Pask in Punisher, 2 Exterminators with Lascannons- 520pts

For that much you get your HQ as well as 2 great Russes and 1 Amazing Russ. Obviously Pask's Punisher can be used against everything, the vanquishers would be hunting heavy armor, the punisher spam would be mowing down infantry, and the exterminators are for light armor/ heavy infantry.

Those are just some ideas, what do you think the best use for pask is?

edit: vanquisher= 72" armorbane str8 ap2, Punisher=24" str5 20 shots, Exterminator= 2 TL autocannons

I just strongly feel that Pask in a tank with a range of 24" will be killed more often before he gets to be amazing.
Exterminator/Vanquisher would probably be my first choice.

 alarmingrick wrote:

 Ryan_A wrote:
So what do you all think is the best setup for the PowerPask?

I was thinking either:

1. Pask in Punisher, 2 LR vanquishers with Lascannons- 500pts
2. Pask in Punisher, 2 Punishers- 490pts
3. Pask in Punisher, 2 Exterminators with Lascannons- 520pts

For that much you get your HQ as well as 2 great Russes and 1 Amazing Russ. Obviously Pask's Punisher can be used against everything, the vanquishers would be hunting heavy armor, the punisher spam would be mowing down infantry, and the exterminators are for light armor/ heavy infantry.

Those are just some ideas, what do you think the best use for pask is?

edit: vanquisher= 72" armorbane str8 ap2, Punisher=24" str5 20 shots, Exterminator= 2 TL autocannons

I just strongly feel that Pask in a tank with a range of 24" will be killed more often before he gets to be amazing.
Exterminator/Vanquisher would probably be my first choice.

What's going to kill him though if he's all bubblewrapped up?

Because the Russes are heavy, they're only moving 6" per turn anyway so you can have their bubblewrap advance without worrying about it impeding their movement. This is why I think IG-star is going to be brutal - it's basically an infantry + AV14 deathstar that all rolls around together, either assaulting things with 50 4++ reroll to hit and to wound bros with +1 str against -1 target toughness, or shooting the crap out of them with Russes and Precision Shots.

Blacksails wrote:On the Wyvern, I'm not seeing the power here.

So, am I completely out to lunch?

Nope, I completely agree

Biophysical wrote: I think even if you look at the Wyvern as averaging 1 model hit per blast, against a spread out foe it still ends up being pretty useful. Take a squadron of 3, which is sub 200 points. Against GEQs, that's 7 kills, anywhere on the board. Against MEQs, it's 3 kills. Those are only okay numbers, but the real utility is that you can reach out and do it to whatever objective campers you can't get to with other stuff, and you can do it while hiding.

On top of that, add in the ability to focus your wounds on important support characters

I also think severely punishing deepstrikers and taking advantage of bailed out squads is a real benefit. All those blasts are twin-linked, so you really increase your odds of hammering those small, bunched up targets.

Just for fun, look at 5 terminators that dropped in. If the first one hits, you'll probably get 6 more hits on the scatter die. That's 35 hits (not including the odd hit from linked-off scatters), for ~26 wounds, for ~ 4 kills. And that's against Terminators. For MEQs and lighter that are bailed out you're removing whole squads with a full salvo. And the Wyverns can always get to the bailed out squad, because they can hit anything on the board. Now, if you don't get that first hit in a good place, you're not going to do nearly as much, but at least it's twin-linked, so your odds are good.

St 4/ AP 6 is the only thing I see when I look at the WhyVern.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 alarmingrick wrote:

 Ryan_A wrote:
So what do you all think is the best setup for the PowerPask?

I was thinking either:

1. Pask in Punisher, 2 LR vanquishers with Lascannons- 500pts
2. Pask in Punisher, 2 Punishers- 490pts
3. Pask in Punisher, 2 Exterminators with Lascannons- 520pts

For that much you get your HQ as well as 2 great Russes and 1 Amazing Russ. Obviously Pask's Punisher can be used against everything, the vanquishers would be hunting heavy armor, the punisher spam would be mowing down infantry, and the exterminators are for light armor/ heavy infantry.

Those are just some ideas, what do you think the best use for pask is?

edit: vanquisher= 72" armorbane str8 ap2, Punisher=24" str5 20 shots, Exterminator= 2 TL autocannons

I just strongly feel that Pask in a tank with a range of 24" will be killed more often before he gets to be amazing.
Exterminator/Vanquisher would probably be my first choice.

What's going to kill him though if he's all bubblewrapped up?

Because the Russes are heavy, they're only moving 6" per turn anyway so you can have their bubblewrap advance without worrying about it impeding their movement. This is why I think IG-star is going to be brutal - it's basically an infantry + AV14 deathstar that all rolls around together, either assaulting things with 50 4++ reroll to hit and to wound bros with +1 str against -1 target toughness, or shooting the crap out of them with Russes and Precision Shots.

So you give a Punisher Pask bubble wrap it and leave it in your deployment zone? Or move it 6" a turn wrapped in bodies?
He's going to have to get within 30" to do his magic. I'd prefer him have more range. I hope I'm wrong about him. I just don't feel comfortable with him having a 24" - 30" threat range.

Considering that you have to take another tank with Pask, don't squadrons require that the closest vehicle to the shooter is the one that gets hit?

I don't have a rulebook handy to double check that but the odds of Pask + 1-2 AV14 shields behind a blob for a 5+ along with Camo netting for a 4+ even when moving AND smoke on turn 1 the odds of him making it to within 24" is pretty good IMO. Put a Lascannon on him and boohoo you lose maybe 1-2 turns of the punisher cannon shooting while getting him into position with an extra deadly lascannon to hit a vehicle at range while he advances. This, and he gives preferred enemy to his squadron of tanks and can order them to split fire... He is a boss.

 alarmingrick wrote:


So you give a Punisher Pask bubble wrap it and leave it in your deployment zone? Or move it 6" a turn wrapped in bodies?
He's going to have to get within 30" to do his magic. I'd prefer him have more range. I hope I'm wrong about him. I just don't feel comfortable with him having a 24" - 30" threat range.

If he's in a squadron I'm pretty sure so long as you have his squadron buddies ahead of him hits are resolved against him last from your opponent's deployment based AT.

I see, very, very few people capable of killing multiple AV14 vehicles in a turn from the front, or even two turns, even Dark Eldar lances in Venom Spam builds will probably only kill at best 1 or 2 a turn before being blown to smithereens.

And then, if AV14 isn't enough, you have a massive defence in the offensive potential of issuing Full Throttle for 12+D6 movement on the first turn, should range even be an issue to begin with, and if you are in range but are still concerned with losing the tank Strike and Shroud, combined with perhaps camo-netting gives you a 5+/4+ cover after firing.

You make that even better, and consistent, by putting some Bullgryns in front with plate shields.

Considering the absurd brute strength of 29 S5 and 3 S4 shots with rending, P.E and BS4, its silly to not at least consider the PaskPunisher.

Weapon profile doesn't take into account volume of fire, accuracy, or opportunity, which the Wyvern has in spades. Math reveals things that initial impression does not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As far as Pask is concerned, I'm not too comfortable having my Warlord that close. I like him sitting in the back raining he'll with long range tanks, where your Prescience support is well protected.

Does, PotMS give you the ability to shoot at what pops out of a transport you shot with your other guns? If yes, I can see giving Pask a couple melta sponsons and a las cannon with a tech priest in tow.

Mavnas wrote: I can see giving Pask a couple melta sponsons and a las cannon with a tech priest in tow.

I'm seeing two problems with this new techpriest. The first is keeping the priest alive and in range (you can keep him in a chimera, but still...), and the second is the fact that his special ability only works like half the time.

easysauce wrote:not at all... why do you think the blobs are worthless against those targets? 700pts for 50 GI's, 50 conscripts, bare PCS, 2 priests, 3 psykers, caouple M bombs and two INQ with divination is pretty good.

they have, priests, pykers and / or INQ psykers in them if you do them right. Hammer hand gives you str 8 smash, psykers can have force staves +2 str +1 from HH, INQ's can take decent anti armour gear.

Firstly, there really isn't much that threatens tanks here. None of those 100 infantry models will, and the rest is just a couple of fragile models.

And that's the bad part. The priest, in your example, needs to be towards the front of the squad. Otherwise, when the squad charges, he just won't get close enough to use his ability. But if he's that close to the front of the squad, say hello to 6th ed's wound allocation. It's just going to get the priest killed, and now suddenly all of those conscripts lose fearless. No, in order for this to work, the characters need to be in the back of the squad, hiding, and passing out buffs, but then the squad has no anti-tank.

Also, I'd note that it's unreliable. The priest or inquisitor could still be sniped out, and for the S8 smash to work, you need to pass two leadership tests, one of them only on a 7.

Happygrunt wrote:In that case, the answer might be build some anti-tank with armor. The Tank Commander w/ vanquishers seems to be a popular option and stormtroopers can provide you with DS melta.

Forgive me for being semantic, here, but it seems like the former option would be playing russ guard with some conscripts, not foot guard.

The stormies could work, but I'd be a little concerned as they don't show up right away, and now will scatter further away from their targets, and will mishap more. I played plenty of stormies when they had pinpoint deepstrike, and they already had a nasty tendency to wander off-target. I suppose at least you can take a lot more of them now... but still...

Comrade wrote:True, thats why you back it up with a static combined platoon with a non upgraded commie or priest w/ lascannons, along with back field support from orders from CCS, PCS or a prescience psyker which we have easy access too.

An expensive way just to get a couple more lascannons. Inefficiency of killing power is already hurting this list.

Comrade wrote:Not to mention, ok.... he ignores your conscripts, you now hold an objective. you win. those exact vehicles you mentioned cant do much to a 50 man blob of fearlessness unless they specifically tailored a heavy flamer list against you. or he shoots your concripts, you shoot w/ lascannons, or LRMBTs

Conscripts aren't a serious threat.. (well actually to other light infantry they are a threat) in a damage sense, they still have be dealt with in the sense they cant be moved through, they take up allllooottt of space, and they are scoring troops.

I like it in principle, but will it work in practice?

The biggest problem I see is time. Yes, your conscripts are unmolested until turn 3, wherein they start clogging up stuff... but then once your bigger threats are handled, now it's the conscript's turn. I've seen 40 guardsmen blown off the board in a single turn before - there's still time to handle the conscripts. Plus, once those mech lists start tank shocking them off of objectives and bringing template weapons to bear, I don't know if they'd be reliably able to keep those objectives choked.

MrMoustaffa wrote:The priest's zealot rule confers rage as well right?

It doesn't.

Anyways, I'm reasonably convinced about the anti-infantry killing power here. Prescienced FRF lasguns, even if you only assume 30 of the tightly-clustered buggers are in double-tap range, still puts down 72 lasgun hits, and if they're fearless in close combat should be able to grind stuff down.

Biophysical wrote:So you start in your chimera, headed straight for the enemy, tossing a pie plate out your top hatch.

That won't work. Infantry models with ordnance weapons can't move and fire at the same time.

In any case, this is just like the old way of doing guard deathstars. Lots and lots of stuff... all on T3 models that can get wiped out in a single round of shooting. The joke I used to tell in 4th edition was...

Blacksails wrote:I've seen some people quote some obscene numbers of wounds; in an army list post someone worked the math out for an average of 3 wounds per blast. Maybe I'm conscious of blast markers, but I can't understand how anyone could possibly assume 3 wounds average for a single small blast marker when your opponent has 2" of coherency to play with.

So, am I completely out to lunch?

No, as expected, there's a group of people who are going crazy bonkers well, WELL beyond the scope of the weapon itself.

Small blasts mean one hit per hit, just like it's always been. In the case of multiple barrage, you might be able to swing a couple over to get an extra hit or two, but that's at most 7 hits against even reasonable displacement (and it doesn't work correctly against opponents in ruins, and doesn't work at all against infantry in transports). 7 S4 shred hits that they get to make armor saves against. Yawn. That's good for a couple of marines or a half a squad of guardsmen. Yay.

And it competes for slots against proper HS choices, and it only does what your infantry or chimera weapons are already doing.

It seems like there are only two real advantages to the wyvern, the first is that it's stupidly cheap, and the second is that it's a souvenir launcher. Otherwise, it's just an up-powered mortar HWS.

Yeah, at 3 marines per turn, it only takes 6 turns for them to make their points back. Yay?

Only real use I see is to kill an MSU deep in the enemy backfield over the course of several turns.

 Ailaros wrote:

Biophysical wrote:So you start in your chimera, headed straight for the enemy, tossing a pie plate out your top hatch.

That won't work. Infantry models with ordnance weapons can't move and fire at the same time.

In any case, this is just like the old way of doing guard deathstars. Lots and lots of stuff... all on T3 models that can get wiped out in a single round of shooting. The joke I used to tell in 4th edition was...

Straken makes his squad Relentless!


Yeah, it's still a terrible unit, I was just seeing what the command squad deathstar would look like if you went crazy-nuts.

Aeileros,
I would hardly brush off str 8 attacks, and melta bomb atttacks at being worthless against vehicles... especially when you are getting re rolls to hit, and can chain back to your CCS for monster/tank hunter, im pretty sure preists just make a LD check for the hymn, i dont recall the codex saying it has to be the preists Ld as it is with psyker powers, so Im pretty sure you get to use the best ld in the unit (so 10) add to this the fact that you have acces to force staves/axes to one shot MC's, and its a very effective unit against all targets.

also considering that 50-100 of the guard will be str 4, thats more then enough to glance to death anything with av 10 on the back, as for "sniping the characters... thats 7 characters to snipe in two turns... not going to happen. And no, they wont die to wound allocation, its simple enough to place them in the unit behind 50 ablative wounds and still get them into combat engagement range.

Also, people see to overlook LOS! An IC hiding in a blob has only a 1 in 6 chance of being sniped. (This is a big advantage for Guard and SoB priests over inquisition ones who are only characters.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Biophysical wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

Biophysical wrote:So you start in your chimera, headed straight for the enemy, tossing a pie plate out your top hatch.

That won't work. Infantry models with ordnance weapons can't move and fire at the same time.

In any case, this is just like the old way of doing guard deathstars. Lots and lots of stuff... all on T3 models that can get wiped out in a single round of shooting. The joke I used to tell in 4th edition was...

Straken makes his squad Relentless!


Yeah, it's still a terrible unit, I was just seeing what the command squad deathstar would look like if you went crazy-nuts.

He's relentless, does he have some special rule to spread that to his squad?

 easysauce wrote:
Aeileros,
I would hardly brush off str 8 attacks, and melta bomb atttacks at being worthless against vehicles... especially when you are getting re rolls to hit, and can chain back to your CCS for monster/tank hunter, im pretty sure preists just make a LD check for the hymn, i dont recall the codex saying it has to be the preists Ld as it is with psyker powers, so Im pretty sure you get to use the best ld in the unit (so 10) add to this the fact that you have acces to force staves/axes to one shot MC's, and its a very effective unit against all targets.

also considering that 50-100 of the guard will be str 4, thats more then enough to glance to death anything with av 10 on the back, as for "sniping the characters... thats 7 characters to snipe in two turns... not going to happen. And no, they wont die to wound allocation, its simple enough to place them in the unit behind 50 ablative wounds and still get them into combat engagement range.

The book just says "Leadership Test."

In addition, Ailaros might be reading the War Hymn rule wrong. The actual text says, "A Ministorum Priest can take a Leadership Test at the beginning of each Fight sub-phase in which he is locked in combat."

It doesn't say he has to be an engaged model, just that he has to be "locked in combat." He could be all the way at the back singing the Emperor's praises just the same.

It's the Relentless warlord trait, which spreads it to the squad.